So let me get this straight...

Arguendo

Volunteer Moderator
It's not for the PvE players. It's about helping those who have the need to max out their PvP builds regardless of how many clicks it takes -they just need that guarantee that they can have the same toys as the other player. You can already see them complaining about the grandfathering in this thread... "it's not fair, someone will still have an advantage boohoohooo"
You do realise that some who are asking not to grandfather modules are the same people who already have God Rolls in the current system, right?
I have modules that I am quite certain I will never be able to get under the new system, but I would happily give them up for everyone to start on a clean slate.

Also, I think FDev is looking too much at the core stat increase, and not the often much more important secondary effects which can negate downsides or provide other important improvements. Personally I don't care much if somebody's legacy weapon does 3% more damage, but being able to fire a super heat efficient railgun twice as often does matter a lot. Also, some of the current experimental effects are very valuable, for example feedback cascade or super penetrator on a railgun, so having to choose between that and a secondary stat improvement is tough.
And therein lies the crux of the matter. If the new modifications don't allow a 50+% reduction in heat for the Railguns with an experimental effect, then FDev have failed to realise what makes a modification great and what makes it decent. The Beta will reveal how good FDev are at discerning that difference.
 
I am not surprise you like it. Nothing changes the fact that the new system is orders of magnitude more dull work than the system before.

<snip>

it means just ridiculously much more work for me and my style of playing the game. I collect ships and fit+engineer them for specialized roles, and i am interested in Open(PvP) play. It's a nightmare for me.



(1) Well, if it was so simple to get a good Grade 5 whatever in 1 or 2 rolls, then why was a good segment of players doing 30, 50, 100 rolls chasing some unicorn secondary? That sounds like tedium upon tedium, with a broth of tedium to boot.

(2) By now I'd imagine that you have just about every ship in the game, and engineered up the wazoo, so I don't see as how this is going to kill your game.

(3) I do not think your self-described playstyle is that common; seems more like an edge-case to me. Unfortunatly, the RNG roulette wheel wasn't working for a majority of players, who have been complaining about it since inception, and something is being done to address that, particularly because the salt regarding RNG was coming from some of the more vociferous players (PvP especially).
 
(1) Well, if it was so simple to get a good Grade 5 whatever in 1 or 2 rolls, then why was a good segment of players doing 30, 50, 100 rolls chasing some unicorn secondary? That sounds like tedium upon tedium, with a broth of tedium to boot.

cause someone had a 161% roll and they only had 157% after 80 rolls.....................
 
I haven't followed the proposed changes very closely, but from what I'm hearing in this thread I'd say people who are even remotely interested in PvP have good reason to feel a chill of disquiet; if previous secondaries are grandfathered in without a means to unequivocally obtain a roll as good or better, the new system will be a major fail. To the extent that I would just uninstall the game from my hard drive kind of fail.

If it turns out that we have a means to easily obtain secondaries similar in potency to before, then crisis averted. Probably the most ominous thing I'm seeing here is the frightening amount of PvE players who barely know what a secondary is much less what is possible on the higher end rolls, and if Fdev is listening to these people and relying on their input, it's going to be a disaster.

Well put Jason, this sums up my fears also; who the hell thinks unbalancing a game is a good idea?
 
(From the picture: that's power draw -12.7%, DPS/Damage +58.3%, distributor draw +78%, and ammo clip size -23.3%. Auto loader upgrade added on top.)

The values I quoted from the stream were base values, you can still add an experimental effect on top of that, and I think there were some available that boosted damage. For example, Multi-Servos at 19m11s adds 3% damage at the cost of 5% power draw, and that's roughly equal to the 58.3% in your screenshot.

Multi-servos is also not auto-loader, and autoloader is more than a 3% sustained damage increase, not listed in stats, simply because it dramatically reduces the time spent reloading.

I saw a few secondaries that would increase damage past the figures I have, but none that would reduce power consumption at the same time.

Several of my ships are power constrained; I favor hybrid builds that require high module integrity, especially where the PP is concerned. My entire Corvette is built with power reduction secondaries in mind because it runs an armored PP (with a significant power increase secondary). Without those secondaries it's several MW over budget on power.

I also have weapons that require certain effects to do what I need the to do that have major, wholly unrelated, secondaries that make them that much more viable. For example, my long range cascade rails also use less power than normal and have more than -30% to thermal load.

I agree, and I think that's the core issue. In the old system you could combine a lucky secondary effect with a hand-picked experimental effect, this basically gave you two upgrades on top of the base roll. If the new system only allows a single experimental effect, it'll be hard to compete with that.

Also, I think FDev is looking too much at the core stat increase, and not the often much more important secondary effects which can negate downsides or provide other important improvements. Personally I don't care much if somebody's legacy weapon does 3% more damage, but being able to fire a super heat efficient railgun twice as often does matter a lot. Also, some of the current experimental effects are very valuable, for example feedback cascade or super penetrator on a railgun, so having to choose between that and a secondary stat improvement is tough.

Yep, those are the issues.

Should we embrace the power creep and just allow combining multiple secondaries? I'd like a combined feedback cascade + plasma slug for PvE in small ships - I don't care as much for DPS, but being able to take down ships with SCBs without running out of ammo would be nice.

I'd rather they just forcibly convert all modules over to the new system.

This would crap up a lot of builds, including many of my own, but it would make sure everyone was playing by the same rules.

And therein lies the crux of the matter. If the new modifications don't allow a 50+% reduction in heat for the Railguns with an experimental effect, then FDev have failed to realise what makes a modification great and what makes it decent. The Beta will reveal how good FDev are at discerning that difference.

Yeah, looking forward to the beta.

Hopefully, if things are as off kilter as I fear, they can be persuaded not to grandfather existing rolls, or adjust the figures of the new modifications.
 
(1) Well, if it was so simple to get a good Grade 5 whatever in 1 or 2 rolls, then why was a good segment of players doing 30, 50, 100 rolls chasing some unicorn secondary? That sounds like tedium upon tedium, with a broth of tedium to boot.

(2) By now I'd imagine that you have just about every ship in the game, and engineered up the wazoo, so I don't see as how this is going to kill your game.

(3) I do not think your self-described playstyle is that common; seems more like an edge-case to me. Unfortunatly, the RNG roulette wheel wasn't working for a majority of players, who have been complaining about it since inception, and something is being done to address that, particularly because the salt regarding RNG was coming from some of the more vociferous players (PvP especially).

1. I was happy with a good upgrade, I didn’t care much about optimal rolls.
2. I don’t. Not even close. Still need to get any oft he big 3, and try many of the medium ships.
3. I didn’t claim to be a representative player.
 
And therein lies the crux of the matter. If the new modifications don't allow a 50+% reduction in heat for the Railguns with an experimental effect, then FDev have failed to realise what makes a modification great and what makes it decent. The Beta will reveal how good FDev are at discerning that difference.

railguns, multicannons, plasma, fragment - the huge versions been hit most

all been impacted
 
Besides, there's always the chance they might think again after release, in which case you'll kick yourself for grinding out all those G5 modules.

I don't think so. After about 4 years of seeing the same basic approach to changes? I really don't think so. Frontier have put a huge amount of effort into changes not many have asked for; and mostly ignored the big ticket items in engineering that has been an almost universal request.

They're still building stuff "because it's cool", not because it's necessarily responding to the player base. Honestly I've just stopped caring. It's easier. Frontier will do, what they do. Whether that quite works for anyone, I don't think really enters into it.
 
Oh good. Because I wanted to re-engineer 20 ships.:rolleyes:

But Frontier want you to embrace the new paradigm and re-engineer 20 ships. Because this is Frontier. And this is what Frontier wants. Whatever effort you've expended over the last year or so? Irrelevant.

Welcome to the "value player effort" model where you redo the same thing every 18 months because the developer has amazing new ways to complete gut and rebuild engineering, that is really just entrenching repetition.
 
They're still building stuff "because it's cool", not because it's necessarily responding to the player base. Honestly I've just stopped caring. It's easier. Frontier will do, what they do. Whether that quite works for anyone, I don't think really enters into it.

That's my attitude too, TBH.

I don't think the new system is going to be atrocious.
It seems like it's mostly going to create a bit of extra faff, going to a mat' trader to cash-in unwanted high-tier mat's and swapping them for other stuff, and then going to an engineer and doing a bunch of extra mouse-clicks.
And then, on the bright side, we will get the guaranteed improvements to modules.

Just seems a shame that we couldn't have the good bits without the irritating bits as well.

Or, even better, have even more good bits instead of the irritating bits.
 
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