Solo mode only pause function

[Arioch]

So there we have it. With the exception of matchmaking (and abnormally large screenshots), solo/group and open are functionally identical (as stated by FD) and we cannot find evidence that suggests otherwise.

Yes, there we have it. How successful have you been at forming a Wing in Solo mode? Wings can only be formed in Group or Open, never in Solo. Until NPC Wings are available to players in Solo your statement against my proposal ("I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do") ignores the fact that the modes are already different.

I'm not interested in picking apart the words - when attempting to log out during combat, you are instead given a 15 second timer. I completely understand your suggestion and how the game will unpause for 15 seconds after timing out if you were in combat when it started. I understand that the minimum requested time is lower than a bounty timer. I find this largely irrelevant.
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I find the concept of pausing any kind of timer while the game is paused potentially affecting the game in a major way. With every caveat and exception added to your idea, the premise becomes weaker and weaker. This is one of the reasons I object to it so heavily - I feel it causes more problems than it fixes.

So, yes, you can log out in combat while getting shot at, glad we got that sorted out. If you want to escape combat (I don't by the way, that's why I'm asking for a pause function, you know, so I can carry on with the combat) then currently you can log off subject to a 15 second timer then wait 10 minutes (or however long) for your bounty to expire (if you have one). If I paused the game for the maximum time, let's say 8 minutes, the game would then unpause, do the 15 second timer then drop to the Main Menu. 2 minutes left to wait for the bounty to expire. Total time in combat trying to leave the game is 15 seconds in both examples. Total time not playing the game is 10 minutes in both examples.
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"Every caveat and exception" is currently standing at a count of one to my original proposal. I have not requested any pause to any timers, though I have found that the docking request timer is paused when taking a 4k screenshot. I have done this several times and have been unable to affect any other player's game, to the best of my knowledge.
If you could provide actual examples of how a static Solo instance, not communicating with the BGS, could affect the game in a major way (beyond how it makes you "feel") then it would be much appreciated as I may have missed potential problems.

Of all those games (of which I've played and thoroughly enjoyed about half), none of them are ED. As I understand, none of these games have the same always online structure that ED does. I do not think this is a small difference that can be overlooked.

You may have missed the point I was trying to make by listing all those space combat games and the question at the end of the paragraph - in 3 decades of playing such games I've never paused the game during combat to have a bit of a think about things. Again, is it something you, or anyone you know, does?

We don't need take these things into consideration because these are supported aspects of the game. The game supports VR and joysticks and controllers etc. If someone suggested being able to move the chat coms panel to their phone, that would be an unsupported aspect. Macs are supported. Xboxes are supported. Pausing is not. The game was made with the idea that the game experience in this regard would be different. It's a given that has been accepted.

So it's okay to change the game experience if it's something already in the game. Best get rid of those trade tool things then. Oh, and Voice Attack. And Team Speak. In fact, better get rid of the pencil and paper I use to note down good trade prices.

I don't really have much more for you in this regard as I've never noticed it myself. I'd imagine this is less of a problem for stars and planets as it is for moons which can potentially orbit relatively quickly. Earth's moon takes a month to orbit vs. the earth's yearly orbit around its star. I'd imagine our moon isn't the fastest one out there.

Okay, I'll knock that one off the list of potential problems then. To me it always looks like a player's instance is moving relative to whatever astronomical object it is nearest to, thus negating the problems of getting smashed into at high velocity.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Yes, there we have it. How successful have you been at forming a Wing in Solo mode? Wings can only be formed in Group or Open, never in Solo. Until NPC Wings are available to players in Solo your statement against my proposal ("I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do") ignores the fact that the modes are already different.

It does not ignore it as I believe every time the topic has come up since then, something along the lines of 'with the exception of xyz' was also thrown in. I accept these differences - matchmaking and large screenshots - as unavoidable (just like clicking a different button at game start would be unavoidable, though that's too obvious to add to the list). I do not agree that pausing should get added to the list, just as I would not agree that NPC winging should get added to the list, for example.

So, yes, you can log out in combat while getting shot at, glad we got that sorted out. If you want to escape combat (I don't by the way, that's why I'm asking for a pause function, you know, so I can carry on with the combat) then currently you can log off subject to a 15 second timer then wait 10 minutes (or however long) for your bounty to expire (if you have one). If I paused the game for the maximum time, let's say 8 minutes, the game would then unpause, do the 15 second timer then drop to the Main Menu. 2 minutes left to wait for the bounty to expire. Total time in combat trying to leave the game is 15 seconds in both examples. Total time not playing the game is 10 minutes in both examples.

I understand the point you're trying to make about the equivalence of the pause -> log out and -> log out situations. With the added bit to your suggestion, my argument regarding pausing becoming combat logging dissolved. What then started to point out was about instances - a paused RES instance is worth much more than a closed RES instance. This is a clear (but dirty) advantage a player could have over another, potentially worth millions an hour.
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"Every caveat and exception" is currently standing at a count of one to my original proposal. I have not requested any pause to any timers, though I have found that the docking request timer is paused when taking a 4k screenshot. I have done this several times and have been unable to affect any other player's game, to the best of my knowledge.

In your request for a pause functionality,
you are not asking for mission timers to be paused
you are not asking for BGS to be paused
you are not asking for decay to be paused
you are not asking for bounties (maybe), powerplay, astronomical movement, etc etc etc to be paused.
These are all caveats and exceptions to pausing the game.
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And once again for maybe the tenth or so time, 'not affecting other players' does not make it a good suggestion. Combat logging doesn't directly affect anyone but me, but that doesn't make it okay.

If you could provide actual examples of how a static Solo instance, not communicating with the BGS, could affect the game in a major way (beyond how it makes you "feel") then it would be much appreciated as I may have missed potential problems.

Fine. I will take the word 'feel' out of my opinion: Pause functionality interferes with a lot of the real time aspects of this online game. Logging out is identical to pausing with the exception of a lost instance and when using it in combat. Both of these exceptions can potentially drastically alter the player experience, whether that alteration be millions of credits per hour or a slightly more mundane dogfight. There is no reason to not increase the differences between the game modes, especially on such an intimate level.
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You may have missed the point I was trying to make by listing all those space combat games and the question at the end of the paragraph - in 3 decades of playing such games I've never paused the game during combat to have a bit of a think about things. Again, is it something you, or anyone you know, does?

In my eight months or so of playing ED, I've never combat logged to avoid ship destruction. That does not make it okay to take the log out timer away.
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So it's okay to change the game experience if it's something already in the game. Best get rid of those trade tool things then. Oh, and Voice Attack. And Team Speak. In fact, better get rid of the pencil and paper I use to note down good trade prices.

You're exceeding the scope of the game. If this were a competitive board game or something then absolutely those things could potentially be very against the rules. This is ED and everything you mentioned is supported by the game to a degree. If it's not (like cheating tools), we'll hear about it I guess.
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Where there an offline mode (one that could potentially receive BGS updates but not send them) I could definitely agree to there being a pause function. However, this is not the topic of the thread.

 

[Arioch]

It does not ignore it as I believe every time the topic has come up since then, something along the lines of 'with the exception of xyz' was also thrown in. I accept these differences - matchmaking and large screenshots - as unavoidable (just like clicking a different button at game start would be unavoidable, though that's too obvious to add to the list). I do not agree that pausing should get added to the list, just as I would not agree that NPC winging should get added to the list, for example.

So in your view the 3 modes are the same as long as we accept that they are different? Unavoidable differences..."I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do"... I've still been completely unsuccessful at forming a Wing in Solo. I must be doing something wrong...

I understand the point you're trying to make about the equivalence of the pause -> log out and -> log out situations. With the added bit to your suggestion, my argument regarding pausing becoming combat logging dissolved. What then started to point out was about instances - a paused RES instance is worth much more than a closed RES instance. This is a clear (but dirty) advantage a player could have over another, potentially worth millions an hour.

How another Solo (or indeed any) Commander plays their game is of no concern of mine whatsoever. The earnings per hour of another player in Solo affects everyone else...in what way again?
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Now as I see it, if I pause the Solo RES then it will continue in exactly the same condition when unpaused. If the pause timer was to expire, then the RES instance would be closed and the Player would have a new RES instance created for them when they go back into the game. You'll have to explain to me how one partially depleted instance is worth more than a freshly created one, oh, and how that affects any other player, seeing as we're talking about a Solo instance here.

In your request for a pause functionality,
you are not asking for mission timers to be paused
you are not asking for BGS to be paused
you are not asking for decay to be paused
you are not asking for bounties (maybe), powerplay, astronomical movement, etc etc etc to be paused.
These are all caveats and exceptions to pausing the game.

"With every caveat and exception added to your idea, the premise becomes weaker and weaker". Those initial clarifications to my request were an effort to address any future opposition to my suggestion. There has been precisely one added exception to the request, and again, thank you for your help in that.

And once again for maybe the tenth or so time, 'not affecting other players' does not make it a good suggestion. Combat logging doesn't directly affect anyone but me, but that doesn't make it okay.

I'm sure some Solo players combat log. I have no way of knowing. I don't let the thought of it bother me in any way.

Fine. I will take the word 'feel' out of my opinion: Pause functionality interferes with a lot of the real time aspects of this online game. Logging out is identical to pausing with the exception of a lost instance and when using it in combat. Both of these exceptions can potentially drastically alter the player experience, whether that alteration be millions of credits per hour or a slightly more mundane dogfight. There is no reason to not increase the differences between the game modes, especially on such an intimate level.

If I could ask for further elaboration on "Pause functionality interferes with a lot of the real time aspects of this online game", bearing in mind all the previous tests I have done while utilising the 4k screenshot function. Also, "...no reason to not increase the differences..." is a double negative; you're agreeing with me there

In my eight months or so of playing ED, I've never combat logged to avoid ship destruction. That does not make it okay to take the log out timer away.

I wasn't asking about combat logging, I was asking if you, or anyone you know, ever pauses dogfighting style games to have a bit of a think about things.

You're exceeding the scope of the game. If this were a competitive board game or something then absolutely those things could potentially be very against the rules. This is ED and everything you mentioned is supported by the game to a degree. If it's not (like cheating tools), we'll hear about it I guess.

Your point was about pausing changing the experience of combat. I pointed out that other things also change the experience of combat. "We don't need take these things into consideration because these are supported aspects of the game." I pointed out that there are other out-of-game tools used by players that also change the experience. How am I exceeding the scope of the game?

 

[EdzUp]

Why not for Solo mode have a quick logout key, so when pressed it shows a pause screen but logs you out of the game. When pressed again it comes back in after loading in all the relevant data? Yes I know you could logout etc BUT on some systems logging out can take ages and getting back in just as long this way would just update all the planets etc without initializing all the player graphics.

Heck thinking about it this could be extended to the other modes as its would be similar to logging out just without all the initialisations that go with it.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

So in your view the 3 modes are the same as long as we accept that they are different? Unavoidable differences..."I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do"... I've still been completely unsuccessful at forming a Wing in Solo. I must be doing something wrong...

What I'm saying is this: With the exception of what's different (such as matchmaking or abnormally large screenshots), the modes are functionally identical. If you can't find anyone to wing with, that's a matchmaking issue.

How another Solo (or indeed any) Commander plays their game is of no concern of mine whatsoever. The earnings per hour of another player in Solo affects everyone else...in what way again?

Just because it affects nobody but yourself doesn't make it right. Combat logging directly affects nobody but myself, but that doesn't make it right.

Now as I see it, if I pause the Solo RES then it will continue in exactly the same condition when unpaused. If the pause timer was to expire, then the RES instance would be closed and the Player would have a new RES instance created for them when they go back into the game. You'll have to explain to me how one partially depleted instance is worth more than a freshly created one, oh, and how that affects any other player, seeing as we're talking about a Solo instance here.

A short description would be that profits differ greatly from instance to instance and keeping a good instance open will net you orders of magnitude more profit than a new one.

"With every caveat and exception added to your idea, the premise becomes weaker and weaker". Those initial clarifications to my request were an effort to address any future opposition to my suggestion. There has been precisely one added exception to the request, and again, thank you for your help in that.

There are many exceptions that have been added your idea of a pause function - exception meaning 'a thing that does not follow the rule'. Whether they were added at the thread's conception or added several pages in is irrelevant to how it weakens the overall premise. If I suggested "This thing should do that stuff, except in situation Z, Y, X, V, U, T, and W on Thursdays", it would be a pretty weak suggestion.

The opposite of a weak suggestion would be a solid one.

If I could ask for further elaboration on "Pause functionality interferes with a lot of the real time aspects of this online game", bearing in mind all the previous tests I have done while utilising the 4k screenshot function. Also, "...no reason to not increase the differences..." is a double negative; you're agreeing with me there

Sorry for the double negative - I have to tab out a lot because I usually post during the dull moments at work and sometimes lose track of the sentence. Real time functionality includes everything we've discussed so far, from things like the bounty time issue, to circumventing the log out timer that you had to append the OP for, etc. Things change in game in real time. What we can actually see within our instance is probably only a small part of what goes on. I'm not an expert so I can't speak for sure, but what host of other problems happens when you pause an online game? Do the police not show up to a reported crime because the instance was paused when their timer hit? Does a station forget to stop selling a good because the economy boom ended while the instance was in standstill? Does the powerplay mechanics freak out because the control system was undermined when nobody was looking?

One of the things I've learned from prowling the suggestion forum and crushing dreams is that some things that seem simple just don't work that way. Like how we don't have zoom, or can't click on a star in the skybox generator as a nav point. I believe we don't have these things because it's just not how the game is structured to work.

I wasn't asking about combat logging, I was asking if you, or anyone you know, ever pauses dogfighting style games to have a bit of a think about things.

Think, not specifically. Look stuff up - absolutely.

Your point was about pausing changing the experience of combat. I pointed out that other things also change the experience of combat. "We don't need take these things into consideration because these are supported aspects of the game." I pointed out that there are other out-of-game tools used by players that also change the experience. How am I exceeding the scope of the game?

Saying that a pen and paper changes the game experience is out of the scope of the game. Trade tools are within the scope of the game, but they are also supported by official word somewhere, if I'm not mistaken.

By comparison, if the core gameplay was a match two memory game, a pencil and paper would absolutely change the game experience in a meaningful enough way to have it be against the rules.

Why not for Solo mode have a quick logout key, so when pressed it shows a pause screen but logs you out of the game. When pressed again it comes back in after loading in all the relevant data? Yes I know you could logout etc BUT on some systems logging out can take ages and getting back in just as long this way would just update all the planets etc without initializing all the player graphics.

Heck thinking about it this could be extended to the other modes as its would be similar to logging out just without all the initialisations that go with it.

Jumping back into the game takes a fraction of the time it takes to load the game from scratch, I can't imagine it would be anything longer than 30 seconds on a minimum spec machine (I have almost such a machine and it takes me less than 15).

 

[Arioch]

What I'm saying is this: With the exception of what's different (such as matchmaking or abnormally large screenshots), the modes are functionally identical. If you can't find anyone to wing with, that's a matchmaking issue.

So you are saying that the modes are identical apart from where they are different. Great doublethink there...and I'm afraid it cannot be a matchmaking issue - in Solo a player is not flagged for matchmaking.

Just because it affects nobody but yourself doesn't make it right. Combat logging directly affects nobody but myself, but that doesn't make it right.

I find that by not worrying how other people are playing their games, I tend to enjoy mine more. If someone in Solo combat logs, whatever, it doesn't affect the BGS and by extension, any other player in the game.

A short description would be that profits differ greatly from instance to instance and keeping a good instance open will net you orders of magnitude more profit than a new one.

So instead of allowing a Solo player to temporarily pause their instance, you would want them to have to quit out and lose their 'good' instance, even though it would have no effect on anyone but the player involved. How very magnanimous of you.
If our Solo player didn't need to pause and continued to accumulate all that wealth, how would it be any different? You'll have to help me here, I've not used RES.

There are many exceptions that have been added your idea of a pause function - exception meaning 'a thing that does not follow the rule'. Whether they were added at the thread's conception or added several pages in is irrelevant to how it weakens the overall premise. If I suggested "This thing should do that stuff, except in situation Z, Y, X, V, U, T, and W on Thursdays", it would be a pretty weak suggestion.

The opposite of a weak suggestion would be a solid one.

My request included rebuffs to the opposition arguments from the outset, thus negating those arguments and making my proposition stronger. If I had not considered or included them, the suggestion would've been picked apart in the ensuing posts using those very points. As it stands, there was one thing I had not considered and was then added.

Real time functionality includes everything we've discussed so far, from things like the bounty time issue, to circumventing the log out timer that you had to append the OP for, etc. Things change in game in real time. What we can actually see within our instance is probably only a small part of what goes on. I'm not an expert so I can't speak for sure, but what host of other problems happens when you pause an online game? Do the police not show up to a reported crime because the instance was paused when their timer hit? Does a station forget to stop selling a good because the economy boom ended while the instance was in standstill? Does the powerplay mechanics freak out because the control system was undermined when nobody was looking?

In a Solo instance the game, which is all running locally on your computer, only checks in with the Frontier servers intermittently, when something happens that needs to affect the BGS. Press Ctrl-B while in Solo to see the network traffic - every 10 seconds or so there is what I assume to be a little handshake signal, something around 40 bytes (this handshake can be lost for a maximum of about 2 minutes 7 seconds before the game drops to the lost server screen). If something happens that needs sending to the BGS, say for example, the player attacking a Clean NPC, a slightly larger packet is sent. If the Solo instance is paused, then no information is sent - the Solo player does not affect the BGS, and by extension any other player in the duration of the pause.
This is not an online game where we are logging into a big galaxy simulation on a supercomputer somewhere - everyone is running their own galaxy on their own computers, it's just synchronised with everyone else's by the Frontier servers.
Also, I think you'd have to be very unlucky for those examples to happen in the 5 to 10 minutes pause time I've asked for.

Think, not specifically. Look stuff up - absolutely.

So you found it useful to pause in combat to look stuff up, key bindings and the like, yes? Okay. Now I thought you were on about:

Let's consider combat a bit more actually, and how pausing can affect that. By pausing, I can evaluate information using as much time as I need. I can manage pips, subsystems, prepare maneuvers, etc etc.
Part of ED combat is doing these things under the pressures of combat. By pausing, I can remove those pressures. It doesn't matter if it blacks out your screen or not - the point is that by relieving the pressure, the experience has changed.

and:

Managing systems while the game is paused was not the emphasis - reparation was. Managing these systems and evaluating these systems is something that is supposed to be hand in hand with combat. (I'm assuming) The point of the game is to deliver a rich and intense experience. Pausing the game detracts from that. This alone is enough of a reason to not implement the suggestion.

(I'm assuming you meant "preparation" there) You don't pause the game to have a think about things. Neither do I. If someone else wants to, let them crack on I say. It wouldn't affect either of our games.

Saying that a pen and paper changes the game experience is out of the scope of the game. Trade tools are within the scope of the game, but they are also supported by official word somewhere, if I'm not mistaken.

What is the trade tool but a very fancy version of a pencil and (a lot of) paper? So third-party tools are okay? I thought you said you were against things that changed the experience of the game that weren't already part of the game. Team-Speak, Voice Attack, Slopey's BPC - these are not part of Elite Dangerous. They change the game experience however, making it easier...

 

[Psycho Romeo]

So you are saying that the modes are identical apart from where they are different. Great doublethink there...and I'm afraid it cannot be a matchmaking issue - in Solo a player is not flagged for matchmaking.

What I'm saying is that with the exception of what's different (such as matchmaking or abnormally large screenshots), the modes are functionally identical. And, not being flagged for matchmaking sounds like a matchmaking issue, not a wing issue.

I find that by not worrying how other people are playing their games, I tend to enjoy mine more. If someone in Solo combat logs, whatever, it doesn't affect the BGS and by extension, any other player in the game.

If I'm pirating someone and they combat log, I will enjoy the game that much less. If someone goes into a private mode and earns bajillions of credits thanks to the ability to pause (instead of close) their instances, then comes and knocks me out with their anaconda in open, I will also enjoy the game that much less. I'm happy that you have no such issues but alas, this game was not made for Arioch, it was made for others as well.

So instead of allowing a Solo player to temporarily pause their instance, you would want them to have to quit out and lose their 'good' instance, even though it would have no effect on anyone but the player involved. How very magnanimous of you.
If our Solo player didn't need to pause and continued to accumulate all that wealth, how would it be any different? You'll have to help me here, I've not used RES.

Everyone else in open has to exit because there is no pause functionality for them - they can decide not to, but that is a risk they need to take. In a private mode, pause functionality would remove that risk assessment (and dirty instance related) decision. I feel these kinds of differences between the private and open modes should avoided as much as possible, so I do not support this suggestion.

My request included rebuffs to the opposition arguments from the outset, thus negating those arguments and making my proposition stronger. If I had not considered or included them, the suggestion would've been picked apart in the ensuing posts using those very points. As it stands, there was one thing I had not considered and was then added.

You have many exceptions added to the idea of a game pause functionality. I've listed them in a previous post, and you touch on a few in the OP as well. Another was added a few pages into discussion. I'm not sure how many other ways you'd like me to state this, but this is the case. You joined several things to something else to make it larger or different. This is the definition of added.

In a Solo instance the game, which is all running locally on your computer, only checks in with the Frontier servers intermittently, when something happens that needs to affect the BGS. Press Ctrl-B while in Solo to see the network traffic - every 10 seconds or so there is what I assume to be a little handshake signal, something around 40 bytes (this handshake can be lost for a maximum of about 2 minutes 7 seconds before the game drops to the lost server screen). If something happens that needs sending to the BGS, say for example, the player attacking a Clean NPC, a slightly larger packet is sent. If the Solo instance is paused, then no information is sent - the Solo player does not affect the BGS, and by extension any other player in the duration of the pause.
This is not an online game where we are logging into a big galaxy simulation on a supercomputer somewhere - everyone is running their own galaxy on their own computers, it's just synchronised with everyone else's by the Frontier servers.
Also, I think you'd have to be very unlucky for those examples to happen in the 5 to 10 minutes pause time I've asked for.

I'm not an expert so I can't delve too deeply into it. I understand the most basic elements of the architecture and that's it. I understand enough to know that it ranges from both very broad to very in depth and complicated. Going back to the added exceptions and caveats, I'd be very sure that you have not covered anything but the most elementary aspects. I believe this makes the idea's premise weak.

So you found it useful to pause in combat to look stuff up, key bindings and the like, yes? Okay. Now I thought you were on about: [combat pressures]
and: [preparation and evaluation]
(I'm assuming you meant "preparation" there) You don't pause the game to have a think about things. Neither do I. If someone else wants to, let them crack on I say. It wouldn't affect either of our games.

This is exactly what I'm on about. By being able to pause, I may:
Look up pip mechanics, such as how to get a 1.5/2/0.5 set up
Verify whether killing this ship will make me wanted or not
Check to see which system would be best to escape to
etc etc
These are all things which have a real impact on game experience. I believe part of the game is doing these things and hoping for the best, or making these calculations under pressure. So I believe this suggestion has the potential to water down this part of the game. Worse still, it only does it for the private mode, rather than for all players.
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Just because combat logging might not affect anyone but myself, it doesn't make it right. This isn't a single player game, even in a private mode.

What is the trade tool but a very fancy version of a pencil and (a lot of) paper? So third-party tools are okay? I thought you said you were against things that changed the experience of the game that weren't already part of the game. Team-Speak, Voice Attack, Slopey's BPC - these are not part of Elite Dangerous. They change the game experience however, making it easier...

I'll repeat myself: These things are officially supported by FD. Like a HOTOS. Or mouse and keyboard. Or whatever. By comparison, playing the game via hacking in, editing numbers and giving yourself whatever is not supported by the game. I've not heard of any support for pause function, whether it be a side effect of taking an abnormally large screenshot or an official button or a hack.

 

[Arioch]

What I'm saying is that with the exception of what's different (such as matchmaking or abnormally large screenshots), the modes are functionally identical. And, not being flagged for matchmaking sounds like a matchmaking issue, not a wing issue.

"I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do". For that to be valid, you have to ignore the differences between the modes. There are differences between the modes. The statement is invalid. As for matchmaking, in Solo there is no matchmaking. I thought you said you knew how instancing worked?

If I'm pirating someone and they combat log, I will enjoy the game that much less. If someone goes into a private mode and earns bajillions of credits thanks to the ability to pause (instead of close) their instances, then comes and knocks me out with their anaconda in open, I will also enjoy the game that much less. I'm happy that you have no such issues but alas, this game was not made for Arioch, it was made for others as well.

...and how do you know how another player has played previously to your encounter in Open? How are they earning "bajillions" in Solo by being able to pause the game?

Everyone else in open has to exit because there is no pause functionality for them - they can decide not to, but that is a risk they need to take. In a private mode, pause functionality would remove that risk assessment (and dirty instance related) decision. I feel these kinds of differences between the private and open modes should avoided as much as possible, so I do not support this suggestion.

The request is pause for Solo mode only. Everyone in Solo would have this ability. How does someone's gameplay in Solo, which would have no effect on the BGS and by extension any other player, affect you in any way (beyond how it makes you "feel")?

I'm not an expert so I can't delve too deeply into it. I understand the most basic elements of the architecture and that's it. I understand enough to know that it ranges from both very broad to very in depth and complicated. Going back to the added exceptions and caveats, I'd be very sure that you have not covered anything but the most elementary aspects. I believe this makes the idea's premise weak.

Okay, if you don't understand how the Solo mode works have a re-read of my previous post which explains a little of how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS.

This is exactly what I'm on about. By being able to pause, I may:
Look up pip mechanics, such as how to get a 1.5/2/0.5 set up
Verify whether killing this ship will make me wanted or not
Check to see which system would be best to escape to

Um, so you do pause to have a bit of a think about things? Well, how you or anyone else plays the game is of no concern of mine, knock yourself out.
I'm not sure about how you would go about verifying the status of your target or finding an escape system when you would be stuck on a static paused screen.

I'll repeat myself: These things are officially supported by FD. Like a HOTOS. Or mouse and keyboard. Or whatever. By comparison, playing the game via hacking in, editing numbers and giving yourself whatever is not supported by the game. I've not heard of any support for pause function, whether it be a side effect of taking an abnormally large screenshot or an official button or a hack.

So third-party software, running in the background while the game is playing, is, in your view, officially supported by Frontier? I've not made any mention of hacking.
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You seem to be opposed to the this suggestion even though it would have no effect on yours or anyone else's gameplay. You have absolutely no way of knowing how a Commander in Solo mode is playing their game, indeed, I currently use the 4k screenshot function to allow me to pause my instance for about 53 seconds. Am I ruining your game?

 

[Psycho Romeo]

"I don't think there should be any difference between open and solo as far as what the player can and cannot do". For that to be valid, you have to ignore the differences between the modes. There are differences between the modes. The statement is invalid. As for matchmaking, in Solo there is no matchmaking. I thought you said you knew how instancing worked?

The statement stripped of its context is absolutely invalid. The statement I supplied in response which has its context included is valid. I understand how instancing/matchmaking works. I understand that when you click the solo button to start the game, the matchmaking functionality does not match you up with other players, as it treats the game as a group of one. There is absolutely no change to wing functionality/mechanics, unless you have evidence otherwise? What kind of functional or mechanical difference can you find with wings?

...and how do you know how another player has played previously to your encounter in Open? How are they earning "bajillions" in Solo by being able to pause the game?

The request is pause for Solo mode only. Everyone in Solo would have this ability. How does someone's gameplay in Solo, which would have no effect on the BGS and by extension any other player, affect you in any way (beyond how it makes you "feel")?

Okay, if you don't understand how the Solo mode works have a re-read of my previous post which explains a little of how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS.

Um, so you do pause to have a bit of a think about things? Well, how you or anyone else plays the game is of no concern of mine, knock yourself out.
I'm not sure about how you would go about verifying the status of your target or finding an escape system when you would be stuck on a static paused screen.

I already said I have a basic understanding of the game's architecture, which is about as much as you explained. Again: Just because combat logging directly affects nobody else but me does not make it okay. Also, from your posts it kinda seems like you may not understand this, but the actions someone takes in a private mode affects every other player who has the game. I (and FD) feel that differences between private and open modes should be avoided as much as possible. Welcome to the suggestion forum, where much of what we do is discuss how we feel about changes and ideas about the game. From what I can tell, you feel that because this suggestion affects nobody but yourself, there's no reason not to implemented it. I feel that because this suggestion affects nobody but yourself, it absolutely should not be implemented.
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Typically in the past when I've paused a game mid combat, it's not specifically to think about things (as I've said once before). It's to use this thing I have access to called google that tells me a lot about the game without being in it.
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So third-party software, running in the background while the game is playing, is, in your view, officially supported by Frontier? I've not made any mention of hacking.

You mean the things mentioned in the hundreds of page long threads about the trading system extension and elite dangerous discoverer and coriolis and such? Yeah actually, from what I've read, FD has made public statements saying that these are okay. In comparison, they've condemned exploits and more overt cheats.
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You seem to be opposed to the this suggestion even though it would have no effect on yours or anyone else's gameplay. You have absolutely no way of knowing how a Commander in Solo mode is playing their game, indeed, I currently use the 4k screenshot function to allow me to pause my instance for about 53 seconds. Am I ruining your game?

No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood. "You can't see me do it" does not mean it's okay. Again, this is not a single player game - how one CMDR impacts the world affects the game for everyone else.

 

[Arioch]

The statement stripped of its context is absolutely invalid. The statement I supplied in response which has its context included is valid. I understand how instancing/matchmaking works. I understand that when you click the solo button to start the game, the matchmaking functionality does not match you up with other players, as it treats the game as a group of one. There is absolutely no change to wing functionality/mechanics, unless you have evidence otherwise? What kind of functional or mechanical difference can you find with wings?

Your opposition to my request was based on you wanting no differences between the modes. I have pointed out two differences: 4k screenshots in Solo and Wings in Group/Open. Neither can be done in the other modes. I keep pointing this out and you keep insisting there are no differences between the modes, as long as you ignore the differences.

I already said I have a basic understanding of the game's architecture, which is about as much as you explained. Again: Just because combat logging directly affects nobody else but me does not make it okay. Also, from your posts it kinda seems like you may not understand this, but the actions someone takes in a private mode affects every other player who has the game. I (and FD) feel that differences between private and open modes should be avoided as much as possible.

We are talking about pausing, not combat logging.
Certain actions taken in Solo mode affect the BGS and by extension, every other player in the game. The game running in Solo mode only needs to communicate with the BGS intermittently, when an action occurs that needs to update it or the game running on the player's computer needs to pull information from the BGS. The rest of the time, and this is quite important, the game is just running on the player's computer. Not affecting the BGS. Not affecting other players.
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I've tested this in various situations, but let me relate this example: I entered an instance with several Wanted NPCs. I disconnected from the internet. I initiated combat and everything was going fine until I was about to destroy a ship and my shields dropped. At this point I was dropped to the lost server screen. For a over a minute of active combat, nothing was affecting the BGS. Either the ship destruction or my hull damage needed to update the BGS. That instance could've been paused during that minute of active combat without any network communication. I've successfully conducted combat while taking a series of 53 second screenshots with no problems whatsoever.
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If a Solo instance is paused, by its very nature it is not updating or being updated by the BGS. It is quite important that you understand this.

Typically in the past when I've paused a game mid combat, it's not specifically to think about things (as I've said once before). It's to use this thing I have access to called google that tells me a lot about the game without being in it.

Good for you, I hope you enjoyed your games more. Now, how would I go about Googling a Galaxy map for my current location or whether the ship I was going to shoot would make me Wanted? My Google-fu must be weak.

You mean the things mentioned in the hundreds of page long threads about the trading system extension and elite dangerous discoverer and coriolis and such? Yeah actually, from what I've read, FD has made public statements saying that these are okay. In comparison, they've condemned exploits and more overt cheats.
No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood. "You can't see me do it" does not mean it's okay. Again, this is not a single player game - how one CMDR impacts the world affects the game for everyone else.

Are you now okay with things that change the game experience that aren't part of the game? My request would be part of the game, in fact, it could be a modification of something already in the game. I'm already doing it.
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It is quite important that you understand this: if a Solo instance is paused, it is not affecting the BGS at all and by extension any other player in the game.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

There seems to be a reoccurring theme in your arguments: Strip my points from its context, attempt to tell me why it's wrong.
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Your opposition to my request was based on you wanting no differences between the modes. I have pointed out two differences: 4k screenshots in Solo and Wings in Group/Open. Neither can be done in the other modes. I keep pointing this out and you keep insisting there are no differences between the modes, as long as you ignore the differences.

From what I can tell:
The suggestion forum and the retrofitting forum are no different from each other, except for the matter which is considered on topic and the web address structure.
The private and open modes are no different from each other, except for the scope of the matchmaking algorithm and abnormally large screenshots.
Neither of these are unacceptable truths.

We are talking about pausing, not combat logging.
Certain actions taken in Solo mode affect the BGS and by extension, every other player in the game. The game running in Solo mode only needs to communicate with the BGS intermittently, when an action occurs that needs to update it or the game running on the player's computer needs to pull information from the BGS. The rest of the time, and this is quite important, the game is just running on the player's computer. Not affecting the BGS. Not affecting other players.

We are not talking about pausing, or at least I'm not. I'm talking about the abuse potential of mechanics and how they can cause rifts between players in different modes on a scale larger than the scope of the matchmaking system. I have a basic understanding how often the server needs to communicate with the local user.
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There is only one circumstance that I can think of where I would say pausing would be okay (from a mechanical standpoint) - permanently shadowbanned players. These players will never affect the universe in any way (until their shadowban ends and they can jump into another mode).

Good for you, I hope you enjoyed your games more. Now, how would I go about Googling a Galaxy map for my current location or whether the ship I was going to shoot would make me Wanted? My Google-fu must be weak.

If you cannot figure out how crime and punishment works or where you are in the galaxy via google, you are very correct.

Are you now okay with things that change the game experience that aren't part of the game? My request would be part of the game, in fact, it could be a modification of something already in the game. I'm already doing it.

Do not take my points out of context. I'm very okay with things that change the game experience that are supported by the game, such as HOTAS or trade extension or the community blog. I'm not okay with things that are not supported by the game, such as cheats or combat logging or other less known methods of exploitation.
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It is quite important that you understand this: if a Solo instance is paused, it is not affecting the BGS at all and by extension any other player in the game.

I understand this. You need to understand that this does not make it okay. Cheating in a private mode doesn't need to affect the BGS or by extension any other player in the game. I would absolutely not support a suggestion that draws so many parallels to cheats and opens so many doors to exploits.

 

[Arioch]

There seems to be a reoccurring theme in your arguments: Strip my points from its context, attempt to tell me why it's wrong.
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From what I can tell:
The suggestion forum and the retrofitting forum are no different from each other, except for the matter which is considered on topic and the web address structure.
The private and open modes are no different from each other, except for the scope of the matchmaking algorithm and abnormally large screenshots.
Neither of these are unacceptable truths.

I have in no way stripped any of your statements of their context. Your opposition to my request is based on you wanting no differences between the modes. I have pointed out two differences: 4k screenshots in Solo and Wings in Group/Open. Neither can be done in the other modes. I keep pointing this out and you keep insisting there are no differences between the modes, as long as you ignore the differences. In the quote above you state the modes are no different, "except for"...which means the modes are different.

We are not talking about pausing, or at least I'm not. I'm talking about the abuse potential of mechanics and how they can cause rifts between players in different modes on a scale larger than the scope of the matchmaking system. I have a basic understanding how often the server needs to communicate with the local user.
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There is only one circumstance that I can think of where I would say pausing would be okay (from a mechanical standpoint) - permanently shadowbanned players. These players will never affect the universe in any way (until their shadowban ends and they can jump into another mode).

Well, I'm talking about pausing; it's what my suggestion is about. So your concern is "potential rifts between players in different modes"? So, back to the argument of not wanting differences between the three modes?
I'm waiting for suggestions of the abuse potential of the mechanics of my suggestion, you have provided one so far and again, thank you for that. An answer to "how are they earning "bajillions" in Solo by being able to pause the game?" would also be appreciated.

If you cannot figure out how crime and punishment works or where you are in the galaxy via google, you are very correct.

Were those examples that I should've ignored as per previous posts? I did manage to get an Elite Dangerous galaxy map, but it only had 275 systems. Just a few short to be useful...

Do not take my points out of context. I'm very okay with things that change the game experience that are supported by the game, such as HOTAS or trade extension or the community blog. I'm not okay with things that are not supported by the game, such as cheats or combat logging or other less known methods of exploitation.

I am not taking your points out of context - you stated that you are opposed to things that change the experience of the game that aren't supported aspects. Third party software (and a pencil and paper) may function without interfering with the game but it does not mean they are supported by it.
Is this another argument that has to ignore the exceptions?

I understand this. You need to understand that this does not make it okay. Cheating in a private mode doesn't need to affect the BGS or by extension any other player in the game. I would absolutely not support a suggestion that draws so many parallels to cheats and opens so many doors to exploits.

I'm glad that you understand that a paused Solo instance does not communicate with the BGS. If you understand how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS then you cannot object to a pause function from a technical perspective, after all, it's exactly the same as using the 4k screenshot or when nothing is occurring in the Solo instance or when the Solo player has logged off.
I'm posting about pausing, not cheating. Please, feel free to elaborate on the "many doors to exploits" or the "parallels to cheats". If I've overlooked anything, I would like to know so that I may refine my proposal.
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Just to reiterate - I'm already using the 4k screenshot function as a makeshift temporary pause. My credit earning rate drops to zero while the instance is paused. My ability to affect the BGS, and by extension any other player in the game, drops to zero while the instance is paused. My ability to affect my game, while paused, drops to zero.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

I'm going to stop responding to the bits of your post that have been copied and pasted, as to not promote more childishness.

Well, I'm talking about pausing; it's what my suggestion is about. So your concern is "potential rifts between players in different modes"? So, back to the argument of not wanting differences between the three modes?

I've already explained to you how pausing opens up a potential for abuse. It has to do with maintaining the instance in a way that a player in a different mode cannot. Besides what's been already discussed (I'm no longer interested in stepping backwards in the discussion), the modes should be equal, and differences should be avoided.
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I'm waiting for suggestions of the abuse potential of the mechanics of my suggestion, you have provided one so far and again, thank you for that. An answer to "how are they earning "bajillions" in Solo by being able to pause the game?" would also be appreciated.

Were those examples that I should've ignored as per previous posts? I did manage to get an Elite Dangerous galaxy map, but it only had 275 systems. Just a few short to be useful...

Well, I'm not here to teach a class on google. If that's all the useful information you can get from google regarding ED, then it's clear you lack the capacity to abuse a pause feature in this way. Because you would not abuse it does not mean it is not probe to abuse. Thankfully you have come to the suggestion board where you can receive the opinions of others who may feel something different than you. The ability to pause an instance and be safe vs. the need to close it to be safe could cause a rift worth millions of credits per hour between two otherwise equal CMDRs. This in my opinion is not okay, because we are playing a multiplayer game, not a single player game.
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I am not taking your points out of context - you stated that you are opposed to things that change the experience of the game that aren't supported aspects. Third party software (and a pencil and paper) may function without interfering with the game but it does not mean they are supported by it.
Is this another argument that has to ignore the exceptions?

There aren't rules saying you aren't allowed to use pencil and paper. I'd bet money that FD is well aware that people are using pencil and paper. From what it appears, they do not care and/or they have explicitly said that it is okay. So yes, I'd say that pencil and paper use is supported. The same with other things such as the trade extension or OCR or the discovery database.
An example of something unsupported would be cheats and exploits such as combat logging, as FD has explicitly shown us that this is not okay.
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If I've overlooked anything, I would like to know so that I may refine my proposal.

Please explain to me how pausing works with respect to this and this video.

 

[Arioch]

I'm going to stop responding to the bits of your post that have been copied and pasted, as to not promote more childishness.

Is that the childishness relating to the refusal to accept differences between the three modes even when given definite examples? Or that the three modes are identical as long as you ignore the ways that they are not?

I've already explained to you how pausing opens up a potential for abuse. It has to do with maintaining the instance in a way that a player in a different mode cannot. Besides what's been already discussed (I'm no longer interested in stepping backwards in the discussion), the modes should be equal, and differences should be avoided.
Well, I'm not here to teach a class on google. If that's all the useful information you can get from google regarding ED, then it's clear you lack the capacity to abuse a pause feature in this way. Because you would not abuse it does not mean it is not probe to abuse. Thankfully you have come to the suggestion board where you can receive the opinions of others who may feel something different than you. The ability to pause an instance and be safe vs. the need to close it to be safe could cause a rift worth millions of credits per hour between two otherwise equal CMDRs. This in my opinion is not okay, because we are playing a multiplayer game, not a single player game.

It seems your argument against my proposal remains the equality of the modes, even though it has been pointed out that they already differ. This "rift worth millions of credits per hour"; one Commander will be earning less, correct, because they have paused their instance and thus not earning any credits for that duration. It's their choice. I suppose if I did 5 consecutive pause periods over an hour, up to almost the maximum requested time (so as not to drop to the Main Menu and lose the "good" instance) my earning potential in those remaining 10 minutes or so wouldn't be very much. I'm certain that most people in Solo mode are earning more credits than me in the few hours per week that I play.
I tend not to worry how much other people are earning per hour in this game, or how many hours they play, or in what modes. If you've no way of knowing, what's the point of worrying?

There aren't rules saying you aren't allowed to use pencil and paper. I'd bet money that FD is well aware that people are using pencil and paper. From what it appears, they do not care and/or they have explicitly said that it is okay. So yes, I'd say that pencil and paper use is supported. The same with other things such as the trade extension or OCR or the discovery database.
An example of something unsupported would be cheats and exploits such as combat logging, as FD has explicitly shown us that this is not okay.

Okay, everything is now good that may change the game experience, be it in the game or third-party, as long as it's not cheating. That's good because I'm requesting something that would be supported by the game, be part of the game program, functionally similar to an already existing feature.

Please explain to me how pausing works with respect to this and this video.

I thought you said you understood how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS? We are not logging into some super-computer hosted galactic simulation that exists independently of all our computers. If I were to pause that instance by using the current in-game ability to take a 4k screenshot, it would then carry on as normal. See, it's all running locally on my PC. That moon spinning around that planet is only doing so in my SuperCruise instance.
I could pause in SuperCruise prior to meeting Mr Speedy Gonzales Moon, nothing needed to or from the BGS. After dropping out of SuperCruise, I could also pause. See those times when dropping in and out of SuperCruise? That's the game aligning itself to the BGS and loading whatever it requires for the instance. If I chased that moon, paused for 5 minutes, then dropped out of SuperCruise in its vicinity, the game would adjust all stellar objects in the system to match the BGS. From my perspective, this would be unnoticeable. (turns out not if they're particularly fast!)
You may have missed this in my previous posts, but I have already tried similar things out.
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edit: in the interest of Science (and because it turned out I was only 8 jumps away from Epsilon Indi) I've had a look at Mitterand Hollow, the speedy moon of New Africa as seen in the Youtube videos linked in the previous post. Interesting results. It seems that if you're not in the local space of a visible stellar object, it continues to move during an instance pause. I undocked from the local station and positioned myself so I could see the station with the planet and moon in the background. The screenshot took exactly 1 minute to save. Everything in my local vicinity (the station, NPCs) continued from their frozen positions, but the speedy moon jumped position across the planet. In SuperCruise, the moon would also jump if a screenshot was taken at a distance. I positioned myself in the moon's orbital path and waited...as it rapidly approached I hit the screenshot key and when the instance unpaused...the moon had gone right past. I tried to get run over by the moon in normal space and in SuperCruise, but once you get close enough it just "picks you up" and you start moving along with it. Try as I might, I could not time it right so that I unpaused inside the moon, marooned for all eternity in the centre of a dead planet... buried alive...buried alive...I just popped up around the moon. Taking a screenshot while zooming along with the moon would cause New Africa to leap across the sky, presumably as it was a distant object.
I suppose you could use this to dodge all those really fast moons out there (um, are there any more?), but seeing as they don't run you over anyway...

 

[Psycho Romeo]

Is that the childishness relating to the refusal to accept differences between the three modes even when given definite examples? Or that the three modes are identical as long as you ignore the ways that they are not?

You have asked for clarification on X. I gave you my exact clarification of X four or five times now, but you keep asking. This is exactly something a troll would do and I need to break my bad habit of feeding trolls.

It seems your argument against my proposal remains the equality of the modes, even though it has been pointed out that they already differ. This "rift worth millions of credits per hour"; one Commander will be earning less, correct, because they have paused their instance and thus not earning any credits for that duration. It's their choice. I suppose if I did 5 consecutive pause periods over an hour, up to almost the maximum requested time (so as not to drop to the Main Menu and lose the "good" instance) my earning potential in those remaining 10 minutes or so wouldn't be very much. I'm certain that most people in Solo mode are earning more credits than me in the few hours per week that I play.
I tend not to worry how much other people are earning per hour in this game, or how many hours they play, or in what modes. If you've no way of knowing, what's the point of worrying?

The modes are called different things. They're spelt differently. They have different buttons associated with them. There is a point where one has to say 'these details don't matter within the scope of the argument'. The modes are the same. The technical differences are what I've mentioned, and probably some other things. What's the difference between THIS TEXT and THIS TEXT? Probably not enough to be worth mentioning if all we need to do is read the words.
This is childishness. When intentional, this is trolling.
I worry about how someone else plays the game and how well they do or do not do. This is because these people affect my universe. This has also been said several times. Someone who keeps their instance open will potentially make millions more than someone who closes it, but you've twice now twisted my example into something else. Stop this childishness.

Okay, everything is now good that may change the game experience, be it in the game or third-party, as long as it's not cheating. That's good because I'm requesting something that would be supported by the game, be part of the game program, functionally similar to an already existing feature.

What you do with your screenshot lag is no different than pulling the Ethernet cable when in combat. In one case, the game freezes. In another, the game drops you. The latter is not okay, as FD has mentioned. The former has no word other than not officially existing in the game.

I thought you said you understood how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS? We are not logging into some super-computer hosted galactic simulation that exists independently of all our computers. If I were to pause that instance by using the current in-game ability to take a 4k screenshot, it would then carry on as normal. See, it's all running locally on my PC. That moon spinning around that planet is only doing so in my SuperCruise instance.
I could pause in SuperCruise prior to meeting Mr Speedy Gonzales Moon, nothing needed to or from the BGS. After dropping out of SuperCruise, I could also pause. See those times when dropping in and out of SuperCruise? That's the game aligning itself to the BGS and loading whatever it requires for the instance. If I chased that moon, paused for 5 minutes, then dropped out of SuperCruise in its vicinity, the game would adjust all stellar objects in the system to match the BGS. From my perspective, this would be unnoticeable. (turns out not if they're particularly fast!)
You may have missed this in my previous posts, but I have already tried similar things out.
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edit: in the interest of Science (and because it turned out I was only 8 jumps away from Epsilon Indi) I've had a look at Mitterand Hollow, the speedy moon of New Africa as seen in the Youtube videos linked in the previous post. Interesting results. It seems that if you're not in the local space of a visible stellar object, it continues to move during an instance pause. I undocked from the local station and positioned myself so I could see the station with the planet and moon in the background. The screenshot took exactly 1 minute to save. Everything in my local vicinity (the station, NPCs) continued from their frozen positions, but the speedy moon jumped position across the planet. In SuperCruise, the moon would also jump if a screenshot was taken at a distance. I positioned myself in the moon's orbital path and waited...as it rapidly approached I hit the screenshot key and when the instance unpaused...the moon had gone right past. I tried to get run over by the moon in normal space and in SuperCruise, but once you get close enough it just "picks you up" and you start moving along with it. Try as I might, I could not time it right so that I unpaused inside the moon, marooned for all eternity in the centre of a dead planet... buried alive...buried alive...I just popped up around the moon. Taking a screenshot while zooming along with the moon would cause New Africa to leap across the sky, presumably as it was a distant object.
I suppose you could use this to dodge all those really fast moons out there (um, are there any more?), but seeing as they don't run you over anyway...

This more than anything proves that there is much more going on than we can expect or see. Were this a single player game, then it wouldn't matter what kind of funny business happened when the game is paused. It's not a single player game.

 

[Arioch]

You have asked for clarification on X. I gave you my exact clarification of X four or five times now, but you keep asking. This is exactly something a troll would do and I need to break my bad habit of feeding trolls.

No, you made a definite statement against my suggestion, that the modes should be the same. I provided examples of their differences. You insisted, and continued to do so despite examples to the contrary, that they were identical, as long as the differences are ignored. You have now resorted to implying that I am childish and a troll...

The modes are called different things. They're spelt differently. They have different buttons associated with them. There is a point where one has to say 'these details don't matter within the scope of the argument'. The modes are the same. The technical differences are what I've mentioned, and probably some other things. What's the difference between THIS TEXT and THIS TEXT? Probably not enough to be worth mentioning if all we need to do is read the words.
This is childishness. When intentional, this is trolling.

See above...

I worry about how someone else plays the game and how well they do or do not do. This is because these people affect my universe. This has also been said several times. Someone who keeps their instance open will potentially make millions more than someone who closes it, but you've twice now twisted my example into something else. Stop this childishness.

Are you saying my examples are invalid? You did not provide examples, just vague statements about potential credit-per-hour earning disparity. I provided examples of how this might work. Also, see above...
We all affect each other's galaxy, such is the nature of the BGS. People play in many different ways, for many various amounts of hours per week - how much another player is earning per hour, per day, per week, how much they've earned since they've bought the game, what they do, what their ranks are...I have not the slightest interest in these things. They've paid for their game, they can play how they want. I'm still pootling around in my Kickstarter Cobra Mk3 (now upgraded a bit) with less than 200k in credits and I play perhaps for a few hours a week. I play in Solo because I know my frequent interruptions could be detrimental to other players if I played in Group/Open. Recently I've been taking a lot of screenshots. Please, try not to worry how I or others play the game, or how well I am doing (or not!)

What you do with your screenshot lag is no different than pulling the Ethernet cable when in combat. In one case, the game freezes. In another, the game drops you. The latter is not okay, as FD has mentioned. The former has no word other than not officially existing in the game.

No, in one example the player is removed from combat, escapes totally. In the other, the combat continues as if it had never been interrupted.

This more than anything proves that there is much more going on than we can expect or see. Were this a single player game, then it wouldn't matter what kind of funny business happened when the game is paused. It's not a single player game.

So, you're just going to ignore what I reported from my tests?
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It has become apparent that you do not have anything further to contribute to my request. In the refinement of my suggestion you have proved useful in highlighting the lack of a 15s combat timer, again, thank you for prompting that. Since then I have seen no valid technical argument to oppose my request and nothing beyond your desire for parity between the modes.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

No, you made a definite statement against my suggestion, that the modes should be the same. I provided examples of their differences. You insisted, and continued to do so despite examples to the contrary, that they were identical, as long as the differences are ignored. You have now resorted to implying that I am childish and a troll...

Please see previous page or so where I explain this in detail in just about every single post I've made. Do not continue to drown the discussion in pointless drabble. It's troll-like behavior that is exhausting to deal with.
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Are you saying my examples are invalid? You did not provide examples, just vague statements about potential credit-per-hour earning disparity. I provided examples of how this might work. Also, see above...

Your example is indeed invalid. You're talking about someone pausing the game being in a worse off position than someone who keeps on playing. I don't know how you may think it works, but when I draw comparisons, I keep as many factors the same between the two examples as possible. I will give you an explanation of my example, again - please do not ignore it this time. Two players, one in open and one in a private mode are interrupted from farming a high value RES. The player in a private mode pauses the game. The player in an open mode exits to main menu. After dealing with their 5 minute interruption, both players return to their computers. The player in private unpauses, and continues playing. The player in open loads the game back up and jumps in. The difference is that the private player is in a high value RES. The open player is potentially in a sidewinder RES. This difference results in millions of credits before the open player manages to get back into a high value instance.
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This kind of instance disparity can occur across all areas of the game to yield drastically different results from an otherwise equivalent pause vs. log out situation. With the exception of player matchmaking (and abnormally large screenshots), players between the modes should be having the same experience in my opinion (and FD's opinion too I believe).
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We all affect each other's galaxy, such is the nature of the BGS. People play in many different ways, for many various amounts of hours per week - how much another player is earning per hour, per day, per week, how much they've earned since they've bought the game, what they do, what their ranks are...I have not the slightest interest in these things. They've paid for their game, they can play how they want. I'm still pootling around in my Kickstarter Cobra Mk3 (now upgraded a bit) with less than 200k in credits and I play perhaps for a few hours a week. I play in Solo because I know my frequent interruptions could be detrimental to other players if I played in Group/Open. Recently I've been taking a lot of screenshots. Please, try not to worry how I or others play the game, or how well I am doing (or not!)

I understand and respect your view with this paragraph, but I'm sorry - this isn't how I play. I paid for a cutthroat experience, and that cutthroat experience is diminished when others play with different rules than I (with the exception of the acknowledged and unavoidable difference between the modes).

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So, you're just going to ignore what I reported from my tests?

I'm sorry - I don't know what you read in my post, but I ignored nothing.

 

[Arioch]

Please see previous page or so where I explain this in detail in just about every single post I've made. Do not continue to drown the discussion in pointless drabble. It's troll-like behavior that is exhausting to deal with.

I've (carefully) read all of your posts. Your opposition to my request is based on parity between the three modes. Your assertion is that the three modes are identical as long as the differences are ignored. I say that the three modes are not identical, because I'm not ignoring the differences. I am now apparently drowning the discussion in pointless drabble, in addition to the implication of childishness and trolling...

Your example is indeed invalid. You're talking about someone pausing the game being in a worse off position than someone who keeps on playing. I don't know how you may think it works, but when I draw comparisons, I keep as many factors the same between the two examples as possible. I will give you an explanation of my example, again - please do not ignore it this time. Two players, one in open and one in a private mode are interrupted from farming a high value RES. The player in a private mode pauses the game. The player in an open mode exits to main menu. After dealing with their 5 minute interruption, both players return to their computers. The player in private unpauses, and continues playing. The player in open loads the game back up and jumps in. The difference is that the private player is in a high value RES. The open player is potentially in a sidewinder RES. This difference results in millions of credits before the open player manages to get back into a high value instance.
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This kind of instance disparity can occur across all areas of the game to yield drastically different results from an otherwise equivalent pause vs. log out situation. With the exception of player matchmaking (and abnormally large screenshots), players between the modes should be having the same experience in my opinion (and FD's opinion too I believe).

Well at least this time you've provided an example, I couldn't ignore the last one because you didn't give one...your "examples" so far being:
"a paused RES instance is worth much more than a closed RES instance. This is a clear (but dirty) advantage a player could have over another, potentially worth millions an hour."
"A short description would be that profits differ greatly from instance to instance and keeping a good instance open will net you orders of magnitude more profit than a new one."
"I will enjoy the game that much less. If someone goes into a private mode and earns bajillions of credits thanks to the ability to pause (instead of close) their instances, then comes and knocks me out with their anaconda in open, I will also enjoy the game that much less."
"The ability to pause an instance and be safe vs. the need to close it to be safe could cause a rift worth millions of credits per hour between two otherwise equal CMDRs"
...and if players were forced to play for exactly the same amount of time, your example would have some merit.

I understand and respect your view with this paragraph, but I'm sorry - this isn't how I play. I paid for a cutthroat experience, and that cutthroat experience is diminished when others play with different rules than I (with the exception of the acknowledged and unavoidable difference between the modes).

If your "cutthroat" experience (I'm guessing "Open-only", right?) is "diminished" by Solo mode, well, try really hard not to think about it, you will probably enjoy your game more. After all, anyone not in your particular instance is not part of your experience, nothing you can do about it.

I'm sorry - I don't know what you read in my post, but I ignored nothing.

You asked a question regarding the Youtube video examples, with respect to how pausing a Solo instance would interact with the BGS. I provided an answer.
"This more than anything proves that there is much more going on than we can expect or see. Were this a single player game, then it wouldn't matter what kind of funny business happened when the game is paused. It's not a single player game."
So do you have any more understanding of how the BGS interacts with a paused Solo instance? (hint: it doesn't)

 

[Psycho Romeo]

[snip: redundant discussion]
...and if players were forced to play for exactly the same amount of time, your example would have some merit.

This isn't the slightest bit relevant. Please explain your reasoning. "It is okay to abuse a mechanic to gain a measurable advantage because all players aren't forced to play the same amount of time". This is what I'm reading.
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If your "cutthroat" experience (I'm guessing "Open-only", right?) is "diminished" by Solo mode, well, try really hard not to think about it, you will probably enjoy your game more. After all, anyone not in your particular instance is not part of your experience, nothing you can do about it.

You are absolutely wrong. I can affect players hundreds of lightyears away if I contribute to sending their power into turmoil. If my contribution was made possible or more effective by cheating, exploiting, or abusing mechanics, then this is absolutely not fair. This is just the most overt example I can think of: There are a million subtler ones.
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You asked a question regarding the Youtube video examples, with respect to how pausing a Solo instance would interact with the BGS. I provided an answer.
"This more than anything proves that there is much more going on than we can expect or see. Were this a single player game, then it wouldn't matter what kind of funny business happened when the game is paused. It's not a single player game."
So do you have any more understanding of how the BGS interacts with a paused Solo instance? (hint: it doesn't)

Again, I'm not exactly sure what you read. I asked you how pausing works with respect to the two videos, which were about interacting with an orbiting moon.
As it turns out, you can disjoint your local timeline from everyone else's. It is my opinion this is not a feature that should be in a multiplayer game, and especially a multiplayer universe sim, for the reasons we have been discussing.

 

[Arioch]

Well, at least the mild insults have stopped...

This isn't the slightest bit relevant. Please explain your reasoning. "It is okay to abuse a mechanic to gain a measurable advantage because all players aren't forced to play the same amount of time". This is what I'm reading.

It was relevant, you said I ignored your examples, I have shown there were no examples given. On to your actual example: it's a good job we're not all forced to play for the same amount of time, isn't it? So, is it possible to earn "millions of credits" in the 5 minutes time difference in your example (plus whatever time it takes to find a "good" instance)? Should all those players in "lesser" instances, playing at the same time as your example, irrespective of modes, feel cheated because someone, somewhere, sometime, has a "better" one? Perhaps if the aggrieved player feels so badly about their credits-per-hour rate, they could just use Solo mode. The three modes aren't locked, after all, and what I'm requesting would be available to all Commanders in Solo.
What you should be reading into my words is: "enjoy your game, leave other players to enjoy theirs, you cannot ever know what they're doing".

You are absolutely wrong. I can affect players hundreds of lightyears away if I contribute to sending their power into turmoil. If my contribution was made possible or more effective by cheating, exploiting, or abusing mechanics, then this is absolutely not fair. This is just the most overt example I can think of: There are a million subtler ones.

Ah now, when you were talking about your "cutthroat" experience, I didn't realise you were talking about the indirect actions of PowerPlay, where PvE actions affect the BGS. Now I haven't involved myself with PP as it holds no interest for me, so you'll have to elaborate on how pausing a Solo instance (when nothing is interacting with the BGS) could be exploited or abused, beyond you just saying it could.

Again, I'm not exactly sure what you read. I asked you how pausing works with respect to the two videos, which were about interacting with an orbiting moon.
As it turns out, you can disjoint your local timeline from everyone else's. It is my opinion this is not a feature that should be in a multiplayer game, and especially a multiplayer universe sim, for the reasons we have been discussing.

You asked a question, I answered. If you had an objection to my proposal based on the technical aspects discussed or had seen a potential exploit based on my tests, then I would expect to see an answer beyond "This more than anything proves that there is much more going on than we can expect or see."
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As for the second part of the quote, I think you must not have read my post closely enough then, my local system did not become disjointed at all. My local instance, for example the station and the NPCs therein, would appear disjointed compared to another player's - but as it is a Solo instance it would anyway, irrespective of pausing, as it's only running on my machine.
You seem to be misunderstanding how a Solo instance interacts with the BGS and how the game runs on a players PC. A Solo player only interacts with other players in this multiplayer game through the medium of the BGS. A paused Solo instance is not interacting with the BGS. Ctrl+B during gameplay shows the network traffic - guess what it is when a Solo instance is paused? (hint: it's zero)