This guy PvPs, everyone.
Some combat logging food for thought.. If H1Z1 can do it, why not FD?
- Thread starter Cosmos
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This guy PvPs, everyone.
Listen up.
If the issue isn't combat logging why did you spend another 13 lines talking about combat logging?
People combat log to avoid losing, sure, we all agree on this point. Finer points as to which method is used and whether it's "legal" or "cheating" from a Frontier perspective aside, and personal opinions about whether it's "cheating" from some sort of gamer code perspective aside, it's not that complicated.
Telling them to "git gud" is puerile and/or naive - no offence intended. It does not help specifically because of the associated problems like the issue with interdiction surrender bugging out. So, even a "gud" pilot in a trade fitted ship will not survive that against a halfway decent pirate/murderer. Plus, the larger problem is that this can be a hard lesson to learn the first time round and depending on when it happens to them might bankrupt them and result in them leaving the game, which is a shame for all manner of reasons, one of which is reducing the pool of pilots in open. Also, how does a pilot "learn" to "git gud" at running from interdictions? The game itself does not give you any pointers, it's all down to you googling forums and reddit, this is not ideal.
I like that you've taken the time to give some suggestions to resolve it, but I don't really like any of the suggestions, sorry.
1. Lowering insurance costs might help a little, but a larger issue is the lost "time", especially for gamers with less game time. Not everyone in the game is under 20 and able to game 8 hours a day. Some of us have day jobs and families and end up staying up till 1am just to get 1-2 hours game time and that's just not sustainable.
2. Which cargo do you get? The complete load, or just what was left in your ship after they limpet'ed some from your hold? If the former then you're dup'ing cargo and that's an exploit people will use. If the latter then they are not disincentivized, because they still lose some cargo. Plus, see #1 they still lose the time, and for many this is more valuable. I also don't like this from the perspective that it cheapens the whole experience of death. I also don't think this has a snowballs chance in hell of ever being implemented, for all these reasons.
3. See above "Telling them to .."
The issue here is, why does FD allow NPCs to "cheat" all the time by not following the normal rules for interdictions? The NPC behavior is clearly "intended" as NPCs have been doing this for a very long time, presumably because it's easier to "code" for them to ignore those restrictions rather than use more sophisticated NPC AI that has to follow interdiction rules the same as players do. It's sort of hard to blame players for "cheating" by combat logging when the game isn't giving interdicted players a fair opportunity to escape or avoid interdiction due to all the interdiction problems and bugs.
I like the fact that if I time my interdiction attempt just right I can get them before they have a chance to react, this takes skill, I would be sad if it were removed.
I am not talking about those sorts of interdictions tho, I am talking about the cases where I throttle to zero and wait 3-5 seconds and still it fails to submit.
But, you might be right, in which case the popup message needs to be adjusted to "Slowing down, attempting to submit" or similar.
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How are NPCs cheating?
That number doesn't mean what you think it means. I'm like....50 of those players and I only got there Sunday. Between flying in and out for missions, and switching to a sidewinder, flying in, and out to the mining facility.
I'm pretty sure those station numbers only count each ship once.. I recall flying an Orca for a while (which is not a popular ship). I flew in and out of a system a bunch of times and I happened to notice at the end of the week, the station there said that the system had been visited by just 1 Orca.. (which I guess was me).
This whole idea about why bother to trade in open is a subset of the whole problem with ED zoning and sec: there is none.
Give players incentives to trade in known piracy hotspots where supplies barely manage to get through so traders can charge an arm and a leg and you'll get them to trade in open. Risk versus reward is as old as the hills when it comes to being an incentive to do something which you wouldn't normally do. This concept seems alien (see what I did there?) To FDEV. But no, every sodding place in the bubble has about the same chance of interdiction, with the same ridiculous epithet. every region deals in the same commodities and randomly distributed price peaks with token "rares" and this whole thing is based purely on the economy of a laughably shallow BGS.
Oops, I'm being negative again... Must... Stop...
There are no security regions, safe zones, true anarchic, Hell-holes...
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Many different ways, including:
Interdicting you immediately upon jumping to a system (because they spawn right behind you).
Interdicting you suddenly during full-speed supercruise when they should not be able to catch you (also because they spawn right behind you).
Chain-interdicting you over and over by immediately re-interdicting (despite submitting which should give them a long FSD cooldown time).
Following you to a new system over 30 ly away in a short-range ship (technically a "new" NPC is re-spawning with the same name, which is cheating).
Re-interdicting you with full health after a fight (again technically the game is cheating by using a "new" NPC re-spawn with the same name).
Causing you to insta-fail the interdiction evasion mini-game despite submitting (happens around 10% of the time due to interdiction bugs).
Not being able to successfully evade interdiction despite reliably keeping the escape vector on target (again due to buggy interdiction mechanics).
Interdicting you despite lacking cargo and telling you to drop your cargo (which you can't do if you don't have any).
Instantly jumping away to escape when the fight goes badly for them (not observing 15 second high-wake timer or masslock rules).
And those are just the most glaring bugs, there are others as well. Most of these issues apply to NPCs, but the buggy interdiction mechanics are also quite relevant when another players interdicts you.
For me, "the end of Open" would be fine. However, I think you are wrong. There are a lot of posts by players who say they enjoy open, so those who enjoy it would still play in it.
By "1st person" I assume you mean walking around (ie: out of ship). FD haven't stated what the cannon would be, but it wouldn't be IM. as I understand it, you would still just get a rebuy screen just like you do now.
As for combat logging (ungraceful exit during combat). FD says it's against the rules in any mode, and that they are doing what they can to detect and deter. Some obviously think they aren't doing enough. To them I would say, give reasonable suggestions that work in the P2P architecture, and FD will probably listen. Asking for the impossible isn't going to change anything, and will just cause another "FD doesn't listen to their players" thread.
You know, that last one is actually quite realistic in a certain way. They are mistaken about you having cargo! Almost the opposite of cheating... Still bloody annoying tho.
This thread is pointless. Plz read into what a P2P network is and try to create a sitting duck in there...
It's not unreasonable, but your stinking attitude over the subject is.
This guy over here
zero combat skill required if the target is a sitting ducky duck. Quack.
LOL! All I am hoping for is that the PvP crowd has enough folks to support itself....over there! Because when the stink hits the fan...and people realize that the other side will be purely PvP in the Pea You....the outcry will be amazing to listen to...all the way over here!
If ED was a team based competitive shooter on tightly controlled servers, I would understand all the fuss and hullabaloo about combat logging. Ranks, ladders, prizes so on and so forth.
But, it isn't.
It's a P2P environment with a unique pvp/pve flag system where players have a range of playstyles and game choices available.
Players gain nothing from pvp.
It has no impact on the game.
Combat logging has no impact on the game. It might disrupt somebodies gaming pleasure. It has no effect on the BGS, no effect on the overall game, no effect on competitive team play.
This isn't that game.
Again, I question why players who prefer this type of gameplay don't utilise Arena CQC or start a private group with strict rules about competitive gameplay and combat logging.
The modes are there for you to utilise and build like minded groups for like minded play.
Unless of course, they just like being .
But, it isn't.
It's a P2P environment with a unique pvp/pve flag system where players have a range of playstyles and game choices available.
Players gain nothing from pvp.
It has no impact on the game.
Combat logging has no impact on the game. It might disrupt somebodies gaming pleasure. It has no effect on the BGS, no effect on the overall game, no effect on competitive team play.
This isn't that game.
Again, I question why players who prefer this type of gameplay don't utilise Arena CQC or start a private group with strict rules about competitive gameplay and combat logging.
The modes are there for you to utilise and build like minded groups for like minded play.
Unless of course, they just like being .
Yes they like being ....
If like GTA 5 the player killers pay the insurance then that's fine by me I will play in open but since engineers I am no longer competitive and I am not willing to spend many more hours to keep competitive.
A PVP group sounds like a fantastic place for them to go to.
If like GTA 5 the player killers pay the insurance then that's fine by me I will play in open but since engineers I am no longer competitive and I am not willing to spend many more hours to keep competitive.
A PVP group sounds like a fantastic place for them to go to.
Client-tracked connection loss would likely be possible. I won't say it's a guaranteed solution, but I've mentioned it multiple times and haven't seen any reason why it shouldn't mostly work on a theoretical level. The long and the short of it is to have the client track the current combat status in a file somewhere. Turn the flag on when combat starts, and then turn it off only when combat ends (use the same routine that unlocks the quit button). Should the user kill the game process during combat, the current combat status would be left on. Should a network issue between the client and the instance host, the client should immediately ping an ED server, and kick back to the main menu if the ping fails (leaving the current combat status as is). Then, when the client next loads in, check the combat status first to see if an ungraceful exit occurred.
There are a few points to be made on this;
• Anyone who knows where to look could find the file and turn off the combat flag. This could be managed somewhat by saving in various locations or using a encrypted file, but ultimately I'm sure a portion of people may be able to bypass it. I argue that even if a workaround is figured out, it will be just a small number of people that use it, and detection will still be better than it is today.
• People with multiple computers will get weird results. Combat logging on computer A, then moving to computer B will show no log happened. But then when the player moves back to computer A sometime later, they will get hit by the detection. This could probably be fixed by giving each session an ID to track, saving the ID to the file, and having the transaction server tell the client what the last-used session ID was. Of course, this opens the door to less-savvy workarounds where people could just alternate computers to avoid all punishments. Whether the system should lean towards forgiveness or enforcement is beyond me.
• Such a system would likely have a high detection rate. With this in mind, punishments need not be shadow banning or other account-related actions. Simply skipping to the re-buy screen alone would be more than enough if every combat log was detected.
• Players with shoddy connections will be negatively affected. I would argue that this is fine, since their connection as is negatively impacts other players in Open today. Regardless, if client-side tracking is Open-only, these players with less-than-ideal connections could still play in both Solo and Group with no change. While it's true that combat-logging against NPC's to avoid ship loss is technically cheating, combat logging in PvP is what causes frustration. Additionally, if one or two "warnings" were given before actual punishments took place, it would allow once-in-a-blue-moon disconnects from really hurting anyone. This could also help for people using multiple computers in point two, should the system lean towards enforcement.
Piracy would be the big one. Under normal circumstances, the pirate need not kill the trader. But if the trader runs, the pirate must try to kill him, or else why would traders ever cooperate in the first place?
Let's not pretend that ED didn't advertise both Piracy and PvP. A lot of people, myself included, signed up for a multiplayer, PvP-enabled space game. I would love more opportunities to do player bounty hunting, but that's hard when piracy doesn't work.
Why stop there? Make a player who attacks another player of lower rank get a credit penalty, lose ranking, and display is as a mark of shame in an in-game profile
Say an Elite pilot murders a bunch of Noobwinders. Well, strip them of their ranking
I've always found the way that Elite handles FTL communications and sensors to be quite interesting. Somehow NPCs know instantly if you have cargo as soon as you buy it, bounties update instantly when you attack another ship, etc., and yet you have to visit a station in person to collect your own bounties or pay fines. Not to mention that the Engineers were able to send me their introduction messages while I was over 10k ly away from the bubble on my return trip from SagA.