Something I'd like to say to those complaining about the new engineer system.

[Sylow]

How much do we disagree, though? I didn't identify non-combat in general, I identified two activities in particular (HGE USS and Wake Scanning) which in turn are associated with a few of the remaining choke-point ToR ('Top of Row') mats. Each to their own, but do many really enjoy these two activities?

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I have to agree that these two aspects still need improving. For the USS thingie, i personally see the problem in predictability. Currently you cruise for a long time and if you are fully efficiency oriented you only ever drop into high grade and encoded emissions, ignoring all the rest. That results in a very boring experience.
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I personally break this up by also dropping into distress calls when i come by. Fighting four pirates at once, while trying to ensure the survival of a trader is a real challenge. (Surviving it is not that hard, but killing all of them in time before the ship under attack goes down is tough, at least for me. )
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So there's perhaps the first fix: disguise USSes a bit better. Let people drop into random events, and make sure that these events are worth it. I mean, why can you only get pharmaceutical isolators from already existing wrecks? In my eyes it'd be quite logical that a trader you save also drops some of them to thank you, for example.
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For the wake scanning, the actual problem is in educating the playerbase. I mean, i have run some of the assassination missions lately, and sometimes the boss did retreat to another system. Bringing a wake scanner along would be helpful. (On the other hand, thanks to current mechanics, you can also just low-wake and the target will soon be there again. )
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So in terms of code, the only necessary fix would be to make sure that when a target jumps, you have to follow. The low-wake reset should not work. That by itself would make the wake scanner more interesting, and a true bounty-hunters tool. (RES-cruising is not actual bounty-hunting. It's well-paid policing. ) Once a wake scanner is a regular tool of a bounty hunter, instead of the oddity it currently is, datamined wake exceptions would be no issue any more.
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The real issue would be educating the people. All the RES-cruising by now is not only in some peoples brains any more, but even went into their genes. (So beware if they breed, it'll take generations to get RES-cruising out of their offspring! ) It'll require more than careful nudging to persuade people that actual bounty hunters don't cruise around a few rocks and wait for targets, but actually have to hunt.
.

 

[Red Anders]

To be clear:

(A) Imho 3.0 is really good
(B) Most ToR g5 mats are pleasantly easy to acquire
(C) However some remain very rare
(D) And some of those require a mindless repetitive task to be completed - no way to avoid it - until the lootbox appears
(E) The Mats Trader is great for many things but not for items meeting criteria (D)+(E) above due to the 6-1 rate applying (at best) to very rare for very rare ToR trades

Yeah that's pretty much my opinion. Overall I think 3.0 is an improvement on 2.4 engineering, a significant one too. I was no fan of the need to run through the modules from 1-4 each time but that is actually addressed in full by the material brokers because on the rare occasion that I've needed and not had a particular lower level material I've been able to trade down to it using minimal resources which is clearly the dev's intent. Remove the need to do much extra material gathering and it's a few mouse clicks. Not the issue I thought it would be at all.



I love the number of people who have patiently explained to me that material traders are designed to trade down not up. Like wow really? I would never have guessed. I know its an intentional design decision by FDev to keep some G5 materials stuck behind the random wall of randomness, it's absolutely, blatantly obvious. I just think it's a poor decision.

That is absolutely correct.
Unfortunately people want shortcuts. Dunno why. Probably so they can be done with it and go play something else.

Yeah that's right Chris. I've spent approaching 3,000 hours thinking 'God I can't wait to beat this game and move on to something else.' Whilst participating in every activity the game has to offer.

 

[Hellakitty]

Yeah that's pretty much my opinion. Overall I think 3.0 is an improvement on 2.4 engineering, a significant one too. I was no fan of the need to run through the modules from 1-4 each time but that is actually addressed in full by the material brokers because on the rare occasion that I've needed and not had a particular lower level material I've been able to trade down to it using minimal resources which is clearly the dev's intent.



I love the number of people who have patiently explained to me that material traders are designed to trade down not up. Like wow really? I would never have guessed. I know its an intentional design decision by FDev to keep some G5 materials stuck behind the random wall of randomness, it's absolutely, blatantly obvious. I just think it's a poor decision.

Yep. They're so close to it being a good system across the board. So. Damn. Close.

Most of my frustration is borne of how they just had to let RNG and tedious time-gates have the final say in the few areas where it still falls flat on it's face.

 

[LeoBartlet]

That is absolutely correct.
Unfortunately people want shortcuts. Dunno why. Probably so they can be done with it and go play something else.

From what I've seen on this thread the majority of people would like game play to go along with finding high level mats and not simply ing about in supercruise for however long it takes the RNG gods to spawn the right kind of USS.

 

[Cageman]

I have to agree with OP and others.

So far, I have only done ONE module with the new Engineering system... an FSD for a Type-9. Never had the mats for the G5, but enough mats to roll some extra rolls on the G4, after unlocking G5.

And behold; the result was actually better than a bunch of G5 rolls I did with the old system.

I'm happy. I like the new system... Predictable, Trustworthy and Balanced.

 

[Hellakitty]

I'm happy. I like the new system... Predictable, Trustworthy and Balanced.

It's pretty much all those things until you get to G5. Then it all falls apart horribly.

 

[Spacecat]

I wish people would stop mentioning it cos it doesn't make sense.

When you tune up a car, you don't decide to, for example, upgrade the brakes by first fitting new pads and then fitting new pads and disks and then fitting new pads, disks and brake-lines and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines and a new servo and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines, a new servo and new calipers.

If you're going for the "top-tier" brake upgrade, you get all the parts and fit them in one go.

Plus, you don't take a bunch of raw materials to the tuner and have him hand build you a turbocharger. You can make any car fast. All it takes is money. More money, more fast.

 

[Chris Simon]

Plus, you don't take a bunch of raw materials to the tuner and have him hand build you a turbocharger. You can make any car fast. All it takes is money. More money, more fast.

Yes. More money, more fast. That seems to be what people want, here, right?
Mindlessly grind money first and then buy the rest. Possibly without playing any of this godawful game. Just buy the win and move on...

/s

You know why people moan about engineers much more than about money? Because there is always some nice money exploit around. Well, there doesn't seem to be one for mats. They are trying to find one, but they are failing and it really grinds their gears. Grinding money via exploits is fun, right? Because you have results. But grining mats without being sure of the outcome? Maddening. Mind-numbing, Preposterous.

Hah. Love it.

 

[Hellakitty]

Plus, you don't take a bunch of raw materials to the tuner and have him hand build you a turbocharger. You can make any car fast. All it takes is money. More money, more fast.

What, really?

When I had my 335i I had to get three rusty coins, four pieces of wheat from the local farmers field and sneak into someone's house and snip 6 blonde hairs off the head of a virgin. I gave them to the dude who worked on the car and he mushed them all together and made me a new intake manifold and downpipes.

I also had to sit outside the local McDonalds car park scanning the license plates of leaving cars with the QR reader on my phone before he'd remap my ECU. He said he needed my phone to transfer the codes into the ECU box, now I think he was just checking my camera roll for lewds.

I'm shook. Utterly shook.

 

[Darty]

I wish people would stop mentioning it cos it doesn't make sense.

When you tune up a car, you don't decide to, for example, upgrade the brakes by first fitting new pads and then fitting new pads and disks and then fitting new pads, disks and brake-lines and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines and a new servo and then fitting new pads, disks, brake-lines, a new servo and new calipers.

If you're going for the "top-tier" brake upgrade, you get all the parts and fit them in one go.

That's not how the engineering system works either. You don't have to roll g1, and then roll g1 and g2, and then roll g1, g2 and g3, and then g1, g2, g3 and g4, and then g1, g2, g3, g4 and g5.

I think the biggest issue isn't that the progression system, but the fact that you can't just click a "Apply Prerequisites" button that auto rolls all the lower levels for you.

 

[Spacecat]

I also had to sit outside the local McDonalds car park scanning the license plates of leaving cars with the QR reader on my phone before he'd remap my ECU. He said he needed my phone to transfer the codes into the ECU box, now I think he was just checking my camera roll for lewds.

Lol!

 

[jasonbarron]

What, really?

When I had my 335i I had to get three rusty coins, four pieces of wheat from the local farmers field and sneak into someone's house and snip 6 blonde hairs off the head of a virgin. I gave them to the dude who worked on the car and he mushed them all together and made me a new intake manifold and downpipes.

I also had to sit outside the local McDonalds car park scanning the license plates of leaving cars with the QR reader on my phone before he'd remap my ECU. He said he needed my phone to transfer the codes into the ECU box, now I think he was just checking my camera roll for lewds.

I'm shook. Utterly shook.

That's a pretty awesome post. Among the very best I've ever read on this forum. I have only one question: how could you tell the hair you snipped was from a virgin?

 

[Hellakitty]

That's a pretty awesome post. Among the very best I've ever read on this forum. I have only one question: how could you tell the hair you snipped was from a virgin?

Because it felt exactly like mine.

 

[Stealthie]

You know why people moan about engineers much more than about money? Because there is always some nice money exploit around. Well, there doesn't seem to be one for mats. They are trying to find one, but they are failing and it really grinds their gears. Grinding money via exploits is fun, right? Because you have results. But grining mats without being sure of the outcome? Maddening. Mind-numbing, Preposterous.

Hah. Love it.

TBH, I think it's more likely to be, as people have said, simply the tedium of it that grates.

Give me an opportunity to, say, wipe out a pirate faction, depose a government or find supplies for an entire colony in return for mat's and I'd be there like a rat up a drainpipe.

I just spent 2 hours in SC in YZ Ceti, looking for Core Dynamics Composites.

Enter SC.
Set throttle to 25%.
Wait.
Target HGE USS.
Set throttle to 75%.
Exit SC.
Set throttle to 0%
Open cargo hatch.
Launch limpets.
Close cargo hatch.
Enter SC.
Set throttle to 25%.
.
.
.
.
.
x 40

The point (my point, at least) is that existing game content could almost certainly be pressed into service to provide me with 2 hours of gameplay which would have actually been enjoyable as well as being a means to an end.

I honestly can't work out why anybody would try to defend the current mat' collection procedure.
Surely nobody actually prefers hours of repetitive, empty, tedium to hours of engaging, entertaining, challenging, gameplay?

 

[Chris Simon]

TBH, I think it's more likely to be, as people have said, simply the tedium of it that grates.

Give me an opportunity to, say, wipe out a pirate faction, depose a government or find supplies for an entire colony in return for mat's and I'd be there like a rat up a drainpipe.

I just spent 2 hours in SC in YZ Ceti, looking for Core Dynamics Composites.

Enter SC.
Set throttle to 25%.
Wait.
Target HGE USS.
Set throttle to 75%.
Exit SC.
Set throttle to 0%
Open cargo hatch.
Launch limpets.
Close cargo hatch.
Enter SC.
Set throttle to 25%.
.
.
.
.
.
x 40

The point (my point, at least) is that existing game content could almost certainly be pressed into service to provide me with 2 hours of gameplay which would have actually been enjoyable as well as being a means to an end.

I honestly can't work out why anybody would try to defend the current mat' collection procedure.
Surely nobody actually prefers hours of repetitive, empty, tedium to hours of engaging, entertaining, challenging, gameplay?

That all might be true and I am in no way trying to pretend that there couldn't be much better system in all this, but let me just point out two things:
1) If you expect engaging, entertaining and challenging gameplay, you've probably chosen the wrong game. Maybe with the exception of PvP, personally, I'm here to relax. That's where the game shines and I really hope those "Give us COD with spaceships" guys will never get the ear, here.
2) 95% of the mats can be obtained in more than one way, so if you(in the example you've given), instead of mindlessly dropping into USS, went, say, to a RES and killed a couple of FASs and FGSs, you'd have your composites much quicker WHILE having fun/earning money/working on your ranks...

 

[Stealthie]

That's not how the engineering system works either. You don't have to roll g1, and then roll g1 and g2, and then roll g1, g2 and g3, and then g1, g2, g3 and g4, and then g1, g2, g3, g4 and g5.

No, but you're rolling G1, G2, G3, G4 and G5 all on the same module.

As I said, that's like getting a stage 1 tuning job done, and then a stage 2, and then a stage 3.....

 

[jasonbarron]

Because it felt exactly like mine.

Ok, you win this round

 

[Hellakitty]

....If you expect engaging, entertaining and challenging gameplay, you've probably chosen the wrong game.....

Really though? There is some engaging and entertaining stuff in the game. It's just that you have to endure the tedium of material gathering and time-gating of rare spawn stuff to be able to get to it.

I'm not having a go at you personally here Chris, but for someone to say if you want a good game, don't play this one I'm playing is kinda... odd?

It doesn't matter to you if the RNG was summarily executed and the timesinks at least shortened somewhat, you can still play the game in your relaxing way. For those of us who want to up the pace a little bit, then we don't have a choice. We're forced to go slow to get to the bits we want.

 

[Darty]

No, but you're rolling G1, G2, G3, G4 and G5 all on the same module.

As I said, that's like getting a stage 1 tuning job done, and then a stage 2, and then a stage 3.....

But a stage 2 tuning job is just a stage one with a little extra thrown on top. You still have to do the stage 1 tuning when doing a stage 2 tuning, even if the mechanic only says they are charging you for the stage 2, the cost of the stage 1 is built in.

The problem (imo) is that we DON'T have the option to roll the prerequisite grades automatically when rolling a high grade. The cost really isn't an issue in most cases, at least compared to the cost of maxing out g5. It's the fact that you have to do a dozen clicks that the game could do for you.

That all might be true and I am in no way trying to pretend that there couldn't be much better system in all this, but let me just point out two things:
1) If you expect engaging, entertaining and challenging gameplay, you've probably chosen the wrong game. Maybe with the exception of PvP, personally, I'm here to relax. That's where the game shines and I really hope those "Give us COD with spaceships" guys will never get the ear, here.
2) 95% of the mats can be obtained in more than one way, so if you(in the example you've given), instead of mindlessly dropping into USS, went, say, to a RES and killed a couple of FASs and FGSs, you'd have your composites much quicker WHILE having fun/earning money/working on your ranks...

Engaging and entertaining gameplay are not at odds with relaxing gameplay, in fact I would say they are requirements for the latter. Relaxing activities are very rarely dull and completely void of entertainment, rather they manage to be engaging and entertaining in a way that is easy on the participant.

Maybe I'm an outlier, but I personally would much rather watch a engaging tv show than paint drying to relax, even though the first takes more effort, because the latter is so mind numbingly boring. Same applies to mat collection. I am much more relaxed when I am shooting up npcs than when I am flying through SC looking for HGE, even though the first activity requires a lot more effort.

2) This just isn't true. Most raw mats can't be obtained at reasonable rates outside of planet prospecting (and even then "reasonable" is a stretching). The drop rates of g5 mats from elite anacondas is actually pretty low according to the testing I have done. You get more from trading up the g4's they drop than from g5 drops, and we all now how much of a rip off trading up is. Other than a few types of data, there is really only one way to acquire a specific data, and it's usually "scan x, a lot."

 

[Geiss]

Just posting in support of the OP. Let FDev know they did a god job balancing these upgrades, even if the system may need a bit tweaking i think its pretty good already