OP would make for good corporate PR manager
List of shallow gameplay elements designed to work at absolutely minimal functional level does not automagically make any of them, or the game as whole, 'deep'.
Do you think that eve-online is deep?
Sound familiar?
- Thread starter shadragon
- Start date
Do you think that eve-online is deep?
1.) Y'Berion didn't mention eve with a single word.
2.) Eve is the mariana trench compared to ED.
Only for its social and trading.
however in terms of combat and exploration and actual gameplay eve has nothing.
in elite you are the pilot
in eve you tell the pilot what to do who then tells the ship what to do
Replace "I don't want to do that." with "I don't want to do that, it's currently very boring.",
and you have your explanation.
You can write what you want, where you want, If you have 100 boring things to do, finally, it's always boring.
However, I notice a good improvement for missions in the last release. But there are still a lot of things to improve.
The last thing I did in the game was:
- Choose to help a faction, democratic, with a very low influence.
- This faction was in civil war with another faction. (great!)
- I saw a mission: get a very important diplomatic bag (and terminate this conflict I guess... Hey! not bad, very consistent)
- Very fun mission, but at the end, specific mission bug. (NNNNNNoooooooo)
- aaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGG (hulk inside)
I stopped to play and i'm waiting the next release.
and you have your explanation.
You can write what you want, where you want, If you have 100 boring things to do, finally, it's always boring.
However, I notice a good improvement for missions in the last release. But there are still a lot of things to improve.
The last thing I did in the game was:
- Choose to help a faction, democratic, with a very low influence.
- This faction was in civil war with another faction. (great!)
- I saw a mission: get a very important diplomatic bag (and terminate this conflict I guess... Hey! not bad, very consistent)
- Very fun mission, but at the end, specific mission bug. (NNNNNNoooooooo)
- aaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGG (hulk inside)
I stopped to play and i'm waiting the next release.
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This is kind of like saying lego is boring, or toy soldiers are boring, or the beach is boring. You need to think like a child (pre-computer games). The toys I grew up with didn't have a lot of 'depth' because I made my own game; the toys simply facilitated that. Playgrounds don't have a lot of depth, but I had fun in them for hours as a kid. We are kids and FD have created our playground; we need to find a way to have fun in it and that's ok. FDev don't really have any responsibility to keep people entertained after that point; it should be treated like an environment, not a game.
I should put on my asbestos flameproof underwear before saying this, but I do not understand how people can equate width (number of different activities) with depth (engaging, non-repetitive and rewarding content).
Why is this so difficult to understand???
I have done every single thing on your list without a single exception. I'm still debating whether I should do another hiatus and hope that not every single activity is still a repetitive grind when I return. Good steps have been taken in the right direction lately, so I'm cautiously optimistic that FD have understood what you do so desperately not want to see.
Sometimes I wonder if the reason why we have these arguments is that people who want more "depth" simply play a lot more of this game than people like OP and simply know it a lot better. I realize that if OP is someone who plays an hour a week, the game must really feel amazing. It must seems like that to him/her. I play a lot more than that, and on the list of stuff to do, I've done it all. Several times.
I don't want more different things to do. I want the things I do to be fun. They are for the first few hours, but after that...well, I think we all know how it feels after a while. Even if we want to pretend we can just cover all the repetitive stuff with our imagination, *pretending* that you didn't just kill your ship no 100 in the hazres zone or mined your 100th ton of platinum in exactly the same way as you did an hour earlier, with no real risk of anything killing you other than boredom. Repetition - is - not - fun. And having 100 repetitive activities doesn't make it any better.
If you do not share this point of view, don't mind repetitive activities because you can switch to another repetitive activity and therefore trick your brain into thinking that you are playing a game with tons of variation, then good for you. I am seriously happy for you, and envy you a bit. I just know these activities to well to be fooled, and that's the reason why I dare say such horrible blasphemous things as "more depth would be really nice". Sorry if you find that offensive.
Why is this so difficult to understand???
I have done every single thing on your list without a single exception. I'm still debating whether I should do another hiatus and hope that not every single activity is still a repetitive grind when I return. Good steps have been taken in the right direction lately, so I'm cautiously optimistic that FD have understood what you do so desperately not want to see.
Sometimes I wonder if the reason why we have these arguments is that people who want more "depth" simply play a lot more of this game than people like OP and simply know it a lot better. I realize that if OP is someone who plays an hour a week, the game must really feel amazing. It must seems like that to him/her. I play a lot more than that, and on the list of stuff to do, I've done it all. Several times.
I don't want more different things to do. I want the things I do to be fun. They are for the first few hours, but after that...well, I think we all know how it feels after a while. Even if we want to pretend we can just cover all the repetitive stuff with our imagination, *pretending* that you didn't just kill your ship no 100 in the hazres zone or mined your 100th ton of platinum in exactly the same way as you did an hour earlier, with no real risk of anything killing you other than boredom. Repetition - is - not - fun. And having 100 repetitive activities doesn't make it any better.
If you do not share this point of view, don't mind repetitive activities because you can switch to another repetitive activity and therefore trick your brain into thinking that you are playing a game with tons of variation, then good for you. I am seriously happy for you, and envy you a bit. I just know these activities to well to be fooled, and that's the reason why I dare say such horrible blasphemous things as "more depth would be really nice". Sorry if you find that offensive.
I think it's coming, but slowly. They've added extra activities/mission types. They've added multi-stage missions. They're adding persistent characters/contacts within factions in the next update. On their own, there's nothing amazing there; but these are the building blocks of longer, more complex and more rewarding missions.
. . . . .
So are you saying it's 15.7 miles by 1 mile then?
I agree, and that's why I say I'm cautiously optimistic. ED is not in beta any longer, it's been live for a year, so the clock is ticking on getting content into the game, but I think you're right in that we might see the (although late) beginnings of something quite exciting here. Braben has acknowledged the issue in his x-mas livestream, and I think it sounded like he was not only aware but had a plan, which I'm hoping we're seeing the beginnings of now.
Sorry if I came off as a bit overly negative in my first post, but silly posts like OP doesn't help anyone. Thankfully it seems FD know their game a bit better than some of their players
Right with you here actually Commander.
One good reason for optimism though is that Horizons was a large step forward code-wise (surfaces/new stations/new vehicle/new signal sources/new flight mode) .. and at the same time the mission types probably quadrupled? CG's continue and there are Barnacles now too .. ?
I like the OP's style because there seem to be (definitely from where I'm sitting) many ways to enjoy ED:H already for anyone willing to invest. And it's good to be optimistic if it helps sterilise the forum of worn arguments and supports the devs while activities grow over time. It can only be a good thing really, as at some stage I reckon the game hits critical mass, where there are so many "shallow" options that a myriad of PG variables (with the help of more injected events than any one player can reach in a day) gel by default. That's the way forward in my view and not very unrealistic;
"They're ALL repetitive activities" argument is just plain silly really. I challenge anyone to name any single activity that, if you do it twice, hasn't been repeated at least once!?
Cmdr did ALL activities??? Even already, especially if you include CG's, I don't think I believe that's actually possible. (Burn the witch and let future generations decide I say)
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Silly thread and obvious flame bait as this clearly is there are still some valid posts within it.
One thing that has been mentioned is repetition.
I think it's impossible to create this (or any) game without an element of repetition. There is nothing wrong with it as long as there are variations and new experiences whilst completing the same tasks over and over.
Look at most MMOs - players run through the same 'end game' content over and over. Games like left 4 dead have only a handful of levels that are repeated again and again. If there is a good challenge and enough variables to make each run through engaging then it's fine.
The issue is when the variables make no difference to the experience and there is little to no challenge. I would say trading between two stations over and over falls into the later category as the variables like other NPCs in the area, system status i.e. boom, war, lock down have very little impact on your experience and only a minor impact, if any, on the outcome.
One thing that has been mentioned is repetition.
I think it's impossible to create this (or any) game without an element of repetition. There is nothing wrong with it as long as there are variations and new experiences whilst completing the same tasks over and over.
Look at most MMOs - players run through the same 'end game' content over and over. Games like left 4 dead have only a handful of levels that are repeated again and again. If there is a good challenge and enough variables to make each run through engaging then it's fine.
The issue is when the variables make no difference to the experience and there is little to no challenge. I would say trading between two stations over and over falls into the later category as the variables like other NPCs in the area, system status i.e. boom, war, lock down have very little impact on your experience and only a minor impact, if any, on the outcome.
Brilliant post! If the people complaining had that soundtrack thrown at them all the time, they'd be shouting "change the damned record"!...
In any Game you press the same buttons over and over again, its a repetitve mess. Elite uses quite a lot of buttons, so it has at least a bit more variety then most games. For Depth please turn on 3D.
Simple question for you, what games do you play online that aren't exactly this, repeatedly doing the same things over and over. From Doom to Quake to MechWarrior to Mechwarrior Online to Ultima Online to EverQuest to Worlds of Warcraft to Call of Duty to Battlefield, FPS shooters, puzzle games, MMOs, you name it, repeatedly doing the same things over and over is exactly what you do.
So, what games exactly are you playing wherein you aren't doing that is my question?
Player 1: Man, there's nothing to do in Elite. It's a mile wide and an inch deep.
Player 2: What about trading?
Player 1: I don't want look at space loading screens for hours and have to watch a movie next to it to not fall asleep.
Player 2: Rares?
Player 1: Again with the space loading screens?
Player 2: Community goals?
Player 1: You mean more space loading screens (but this time with other players) which people have to organize themselves because the game has literally no code in it that allows such events to happen or even be planned ingame without intervention of a dev?
Player 2: Powerplay?
Player 1: Well, at least the devs let you choose between space loading screens and going into a zone where infinite ships spawn and kill them for hours, but that's literally it.
Player 2: Assassination missions?
Player 1: You mean when they work, right? Cause so far I just cruise around for an hour, find nothing, and abandon the mission.
Player 2: Smuggling?
Player 1: The silent running docking part is the most fun thing about it. The rest is, again, space loading screens. Oh, and mission stacking forces you to log off and on again, which too, is not fun.
Player 2: Planetary landings?
Player 1: That's like asking if I ever tried docking as an activity. Stop smoking pot, dude.
Player 2: Exploration?
Player 1: Space loading screens combined with looking at random generated pixels? I mean, it COULD have been good, but after you find out that literally every planet you land on is just a random generated heightmap, it loses its appeal.
Player 2: Mining?
Player 1: People actually enjoy the most soulless activity besides looking at space loading screens? All while they make next to no money with it?
Player 2: Bounty hunting?
Player 1: The only engaging thing next to smuggling, but even bounty hunting doesn't offer variety besides in enemy ship types. Once you fought every ship several times, it's absolutely boring due to npcs flying like drunk.
Player 2: Object recovery and salvage?
Player 1: What exactly is fun about moving to a random waypoint and picking up something random that is located at the waypoint? This is literally a fetchquest in other video games.
Player 2: Be a fuel rat and rescue ships?
Player 1: Why do you keep recommending me space loading screen activities? I already told you, this is not gameplay, this is literally forcing minute- to hourlong loading screens on players.
Player 2: Piracy?
Player 1: Tried that, gained nothing, can't even loot broken hullparts or hardpoints from the wreck, but a bunch of 30+ and 40+ year olds whined and yelled like children because of it. You decide if this is worth it to keep the game going.
Player 2: There's always PVP...
Player 1: Yeah, I love that, but I can *barely* find anyone, and when I do, they whine and complain.
Player 2: You play in solo.
Player 1: No, but Frontier doesn't make Open attractive enough. Just check the forum polls, the majority of the player base is in solo or private, because they are afraid of other players.
Player 2: All right, see you later.
Player 1: We are never going to see each other again, I already told you, you barely meet players in the game. The actual chance of finding the same person again is even low-
Player 2: Home to play Elite. I'm gonna go bounty hunting, smuggling, PVP, doing a CG, a few assassination missions, rares trading, check out some USS/WSS/Distress beacons, salvage some wreckage, a little piracy, etc. I usually make a million or two. Not sure what I'll do after that, but I'll find something. See ya.
(slam)
Player 1: Calm down, mate. No need to be mad if someone disagrees.
The truth is, this game is a collective of many, many construction sites. Everything workes half-baked (edited, used a bad word here, might even get banned on kindergarten forum) or is so simple it hurts (transport these 10... uhm... STUFF from the main system to another system! powerplay!).
But frontier doesn't care about finishing those constructions, or at least making them engaging. Instead, they just start new constructions. And new ones. More fetch. More loading screens. Missions disappear just out of transactions, npcs never showing up, having to wait for 2-3 hours for a contact, 200 credits payout missions, payouts for many professions a total and utter joke, crashes on high graphics settings in res belts, combat-logging, scan-logging, mission reset logging, p2p instance system, and the list goes on and on about things that are wrong with this game since MONTHS now.
Frontier doesn't need more threads about how wonderful their buttocks smell. They constantly need to be reminded that portraits for powerplay doesn't make delivery missions more interesting and that landing on planets doesn't fix crashes and buggy missions.
Player 2: What about trading?
Player 1: I don't want look at space loading screens for hours and have to watch a movie next to it to not fall asleep.
Player 2: Rares?
Player 1: Again with the space loading screens?
Player 2: Community goals?
Player 1: You mean more space loading screens (but this time with other players) which people have to organize themselves because the game has literally no code in it that allows such events to happen or even be planned ingame without intervention of a dev?
Player 2: Powerplay?
Player 1: Well, at least the devs let you choose between space loading screens and going into a zone where infinite ships spawn and kill them for hours, but that's literally it.
Player 2: Assassination missions?
Player 1: You mean when they work, right? Cause so far I just cruise around for an hour, find nothing, and abandon the mission.
Player 2: Smuggling?
Player 1: The silent running docking part is the most fun thing about it. The rest is, again, space loading screens. Oh, and mission stacking forces you to log off and on again, which too, is not fun.
Player 2: Planetary landings?
Player 1: That's like asking if I ever tried docking as an activity. Stop smoking pot, dude.
Player 2: Exploration?
Player 1: Space loading screens combined with looking at random generated pixels? I mean, it COULD have been good, but after you find out that literally every planet you land on is just a random generated heightmap, it loses its appeal.
Player 2: Mining?
Player 1: People actually enjoy the most soulless activity besides looking at space loading screens? All while they make next to no money with it?
Player 2: Bounty hunting?
Player 1: The only engaging thing next to smuggling, but even bounty hunting doesn't offer variety besides in enemy ship types. Once you fought every ship several times, it's absolutely boring due to npcs flying like drunk.
Player 2: Object recovery and salvage?
Player 1: What exactly is fun about moving to a random waypoint and picking up something random that is located at the waypoint? This is literally a fetchquest in other video games.
Player 2: Be a fuel rat and rescue ships?
Player 1: Why do you keep recommending me space loading screen activities? I already told you, this is not gameplay, this is literally forcing minute- to hourlong loading screens on players.
Player 2: Piracy?
Player 1: Tried that, gained nothing, can't even loot broken hullparts or hardpoints from the wreck, but a bunch of 30+ and 40+ year olds whined and yelled like children because of it. You decide if this is worth it to keep the game going.
Player 2: There's always PVP...
Player 1: Yeah, I love that, but I can *barely* find anyone, and when I do, they whine and complain.
Player 2: You play in solo.
Player 1: No, but Frontier doesn't make Open attractive enough. Just check the forum polls, the majority of the player base is in solo or private, because they are afraid of other players.
Player 2: All right, see you later.
Player 1: We are never going to see each other again, I already told you, you barely meet players in the game. The actual chance of finding the same person again is even low-
Player 2: Home to play Elite. I'm gonna go bounty hunting, smuggling, PVP, doing a CG, a few assassination missions, rares trading, check out some USS/WSS/Distress beacons, salvage some wreckage, a little piracy, etc. I usually make a million or two. Not sure what I'll do after that, but I'll find something. See ya.
(slam)
Player 1: Calm down, mate. No need to be mad if someone disagrees.
The truth is, this game is a collective of many, many construction sites. Everything workes half-baked (edited, used a bad word here, might even get banned on kindergarten forum) or is so simple it hurts (transport these 10... uhm... STUFF from the main system to another system! powerplay!).
But frontier doesn't care about finishing those constructions, or at least making them engaging. Instead, they just start new constructions. And new ones. More fetch. More loading screens. Missions disappear just out of transactions, npcs never showing up, having to wait for 2-3 hours for a contact, 200 credits payout missions, payouts for many professions a total and utter joke, crashes on high graphics settings in res belts, combat-logging, scan-logging, mission reset logging, p2p instance system, and the list goes on and on about things that are wrong with this game since MONTHS now.
Frontier doesn't need more threads about how wonderful their buttocks smell. They constantly need to be reminded that portraits for powerplay doesn't make delivery missions more interesting and that landing on planets doesn't fix crashes and buggy missions.
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