Sound familiar?

[cpunk]

The market already responds to the supply/demand effect

They don't. I challenge you to find a 4K benefit for a commodity other than illegal and rare selling of course, within a 100 LY distance. Heck, Find me in the entire galaxy this, I dare you.

The market do NOT respond to supply demand. The prices are EXTREMELY average even with system that are affected via famine, price don't really go up. And that's just an example.

 

[Shocken-Orr]

Hilarious! Worth a few more than just one rep but there you are

 

[Hilight]

The market do NOT respond to supply demand.

I've been playing as a trader for over a year now and personally I find it very enjoyable, but then I don't min/max so much as some who trade. The prices can vary daily and even from trip to trip especially if you're trading in a large ship or to a small outpost.

 

[cpunk]

The prices can vary daily

yes, hundred credits variation. That STILL doesn't make it a dynamic market. I challenge you TOO to find a 4K benefit for a commodity other than illegal and rare selling of course, within a 100 LY distance. Heck, Find me in the entire galaxy this, I dare you.. The prices are EXTREMELY average even with system that are affected via famine, price don't really go up. And that's just an example.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Player 1: Man, there's nothing to do in Elite. It's a mile wide and an inch deep...

Pure brilliance Shadragon. Deserves a sticky if you ask me.

 

[Hilight]

yes, hundred credits variation. That STILL doesn't make it a dynamic market. I challenge you TOO to find a 4K benefit for a commodity other than illegal and rare selling of course, within a 100 LY distance. Heck, Find me in the entire galaxy this, I dare you.. The prices are EXTREMELY average even with system that are affected via famine, price don't really go up. And that's just an example.

If the market moves at all, it is by definition, 'dynamic' ...and a few hundred cr/t can mean the difference between a good trade value and one that is merely average. And of what significance is 4K? Profits don't normally range that high as a general characteristic of the economy in the game

 

[Don Alvarez]

yes, hundred credits variation. That STILL doesn't make it a dynamic market. I challenge you TOO to find a 4K benefit for a commodity other than illegal and rare selling of course, within a 100 LY distance. Heck, Find me in the entire galaxy this, I dare you.

I challenge you to declare which dev said there had to be one. 4k for a regular commodity? Shoot, that means I could fill my T9 and make 2mil one way. Yeah, no, sorry. This falls under the 'you don't trade because there's not enough payout in it for you' argument in the OP.

 

[cpunk]

And of what significance is 4K? Profits don't normally range that high as a general characteristic of the economy in the game

Indeed, and that is HIGHLY strange. How about on ONE planet , for instance, OUR planet, earth, price variation are huge, and in an ENTIRE galaxy, MULTI hundred LY, prices are stable and not variable overall??

NOT a dynamic market.

 

[grae3107]

Lol. Nice post.

 

[Kristov]

They don't. I challenge you to find a 4K benefit for a commodity other than illegal and rare selling of course, within a 100 LY distance. Heck, Find me in the entire galaxy this, I dare you.

The market do NOT respond to supply demand. The prices are EXTREMELY average even with system that are affected via famine, price don't really go up. And that's just an example.

Thing is, they do respond, it's a known fact that they respond, it's why trading routes become useless, there is a demand, it starts getting filled, and that demand drops over time as it is being met more and more until there is no more demand. Rares are an example of a supply that isn't in demand near the point of origin but at farther distances, the demand exists, to the point where you'll make a hell of a lot more than 4k profit. Funny, but it seems to me that that's pretty much exactly how many real world supply and demand situations operate. I lived in Bremerton, Washington years ago, across Puget Sound from Seattle, a major shipping port, and prices for almost everything were really low due to all that merchandise passing through the port of Seattle. My mother lived in the Florida Keys and she came up to see her newborn granddaughter, I made her some coffee and she threw a massive fit at my foolish spending habits. I had made her some Kona coffee, which was around $36 USD a pound where she lived, and that was why she was so upset. I paid $1 a pound for it, which mollified her quite a bit. She literally bought as many cans as would fit in her suitcases and shipped all her clothes back home when she left. There were always lots of cans of that Kona on the shelf at the local grocery store, while at my mom's in Florida, it was always on back order, they couldn't keep it in stock, even at that incredibly high price. THAT is supply and demand, if something is in big supply locally, there's little demand, you have to travel a distance from the supply to start seeing a demand, and the farther you travel, the higher that demand MIGHT become, that varies depending on the product. I'm pretty sure there's little demand for Kona coffee in Columbia for example, or Nepal, but in the Florida Keys or New York City, very huge demand for a very limited supply.

I'm sorry you don't actually understand how these things actually work and instead rely on your extensive game acquired knowledge which is based on absolutely nothing in the real world.

 

[Garbarrage]

Player 1: Fan boy.

Lol....

Rep for the fanboy....

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Every game in history boasted a premise of what you said but none actually managed to do it. They all, without fail, converged on best ways to do things and everyone just did that after reading about it on the internet.

It's a rule of human created games. There is always a best way to do a particular thing, no matter how hard the developer tries.

It's funny, actually ED is one of the best games in that regard, with all it's base professions paying about the same and different activities are usually balanced with their risk/reward ratios. Still, people criticise them of being disconnected or useless this time.

I've come to believe there are a few type or person to complain about ED here on the forums.

Those who feel betrayed after their high expectations weren't satisfied last year, especially because CQC and Powerplay was added instead of what they call the 'depth', obvious, since they keep bringing that up. Oh, and wings, I forgot wings.

And those who just dislike everything about ED because it's cool and you get a lot of attention if you open a thread complaining about whatever with a bait title and cool gaming website cliches.

Others seem pretty happy with how the game is turning out.

Ooh, no, I loved wings.

I think it isn't too hard from a design perspective to create depth. You're absolutely, 100% correct when you say that there is always a best way to approach anything a developer can throw at you, but how long will it take to find the best way? I may not have the best perspective considering the amount of hours I've played, but with the weapon variety we have, the choices are so obvious. Let me give an example.

Pirate Cobra - What weapons do you fit? In all cases, my Cobra can fit two gimballed multicannons and two smaller gimballed beam lasers. Depending on the use of SCBs, you might want pulses to replace the beams. The thermal weapon of choice melts the shields, and the gimballed multicannons destroy the power plant of most ships within a mag to two mags. This setup is very cheap compared to other weapons. Let's use missiles - as a pirate, would i ever use missiles? They can't damage specific subsystems as far as I'm aware, at least not consistently, and are very limited in ammunition. Cannons have a much higher chance to destroy the victim prematurely, with benefit only when attacking the largest ships, where multicannons also do just fine. Fragmentation cannons, while now having a buffed ammo capacity, can't hit subsystems unless I smother myself into my target's hull. Railguns require a spool up and are fixed only, so make the job of hitting a PP more difficult from anyone's perspective. I don't see how this is very deep at all.

I might be completely wrong after 2.1 and it's introduction of crafting, but there are setups able to be found in this game at low cost which completely outperform all others, which you can find only after some hours of play (20-60). Also, that amount of hours may seem like a lot, but this is an ever-expanding MMO, rather than a game that you play and throw away. One of the newer infinity games.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Thing is, they do respond, it's a known fact that they respond, it's why trading routes become useless, there is a demand, it starts getting filled, and that demand drops over time as it is being met more and more until there is no more demand. Rares are an example of a supply that isn't in demand near the point of origin but at farther distances, the demand exists, to the point where you'll make a hell of a lot more than 4k profit. Funny, but it seems to me that that's pretty much exactly how many real world supply and demand situations operate. I lived in Bremerton, Washington years ago, across Puget Sound from Seattle, a major shipping port, and prices for almost everything were really low due to all that merchandise passing through the port of Seattle. My mother lived in the Florida Keys and she came up to see her newborn granddaughter, I made her some coffee and she threw a massive fit at my foolish spending habits. I had made her some Kona coffee, which was around $36 USD a pound where she lived, and that was why she was so upset. I paid $1 a pound for it, which mollified her quite a bit. She literally bought as many cans as would fit in her suitcases and shipped all her clothes back home when she left. There were always lots of cans of that Kona on the shelf at the local grocery store, while at my mom's in Florida, it was always on back order, they couldn't keep it in stock, even at that incredibly high price. THAT is supply and demand, if something is in big supply locally, there's little demand, you have to travel a distance from the supply to start seeing a demand, and the farther you travel, the higher that demand MIGHT become, that varies depending on the product. I'm pretty sure there's little demand for Kona coffee in Columbia for example, or Nepal, but in the Florida Keys or New York City, very huge demand for a very limited supply.

I'm sorry you don't actually understand how these things actually work and instead rely on your extensive game acquired knowledge which is based on absolutely nothing in the real world.

Supply/Demand is definitely at work in ED, but I think what the person you replied to is trying to exaggerate his point for emphasis. Perhaps.

What I think he really means is that it doesn't affect the market enough. In a system struck by a new disease, or a famine, prices for the most essential things don't go up much. I can ship medicines to a system with a famine and get very little profit. Let's use foods as an example, during the famine of whatever-it's-called by Mikunn. The prices only went up a few hundred credits, and it wasn't worth a player's time to go out to that fringe system with a low value good. If a fringe system knew that many people don't normally bother with it, and now they need low-profit goods from agricultural systems upwards of forty light years away, I'd expect them to pay an order of magnitude for things like grain, and something like 2-3x as much for animal meat.

That may be the most far-fetched scenario, so let's take an outbreak closer to Sol, in system X. That system, due to the min/max % deviation of the commodities price (in human speak, the minimum and maximum amount a commodity can deviate from the galactic average) should change to allow for much more extreme changes, because of the huge demand for medicines. However, it doesn't, so even when the price for a low-value good like basic medicines skyrockets to it's maximum value, it still isn't worth it.

I hope I explained that well enough. Also, can I get a ticket to that town? That Kona coffee would make me a great buck where I live

 

[cpunk]

I challenge you to declare which dev said there had to be one.

I never SAID one dev said there had to be one. I just point out that prices in OUR planet, earth, price variation are huge, and in an ENTIRE galaxy, MULTI hundred LY, prices are stable and not variable overall.
Also, what about bulk prices and so on?

 

[SnowyNI]

Man these forums are becoming more toxic, critical and combatitive by the thread. Enough already, please. The community is at each others throats right now. Any more and it'll start getting like the MWO forums back in the day. Oi vey, the memories -_-

Indeed, its became drivel central. What gets me is how they get away with baiting, and ofc once people bite THEY (the biters) get the blame and labelled. One sided coins for sale!

EDIT: It has one good thing going for it though... It's handed out a great hate list to file away. Just need details now.

 

[Doolittle]

Apart from all that, what have FDev ever done for us? Hmm? Sanitation?

They turned me into a newt. I got better. Wait.. wrong Python movie.

 

[Kristov]

Ooh, no, I loved wings.

I think it isn't too hard from a design perspective to create depth. You're absolutely, 100% correct when you say that there is always a best way to approach anything a developer can throw at you, but how long will it take to find the best way? I may not have the best perspective considering the amount of hours I've played, but with the weapon variety we have, the choices are so obvious. Let me give an example.

Pirate Cobra - What weapons do you fit? In all cases, my Cobra can fit two gimballed multicannons and two smaller gimballed beam lasers. Depending on the use of SCBs, you might want pulses to replace the beams. The thermal weapon of choice melts the shields, and the gimballed multicannons destroy the power plant of most ships within a mag to two mags. This setup is very cheap compared to other weapons. Let's use missiles - as a pirate, would i ever use missiles? They can't damage specific subsystems as far as I'm aware, at least not consistently, and are very limited in ammunition. Cannons have a much higher chance to destroy the victim prematurely, with benefit only when attacking the largest ships, where multicannons also do just fine. Fragmentation cannons, while now having a buffed ammo capacity, can't hit subsystems unless I smother myself into my target's hull. Railguns require a spool up and are fixed only, so make the job of hitting a PP more difficult from anyone's perspective. I don't see how this is very deep at all.

I might be completely wrong after 2.1 and it's introduction of crafting, but there are setups able to be found in this game at low cost which completely outperform all others, which you can find only after some hours of play (20-60). Also, that amount of hours may seem like a lot, but this is an ever-expanding MMO, rather than a game that you play and throw away. One of the newer infinity games.

Ah depth in combat...there's always that best weapon or combination of weapons, that best attack style/method, it's just the way it works, just like reality. In Elite however, the pulse/MC combo isn't actually the best, it's just the most convenient. Rails are actually far better than MCs, they just require more skill to use effectively, so the pulse/MC isn't actually the best at all. It is however the most commonly used because it's easy, and the two are often confused. That's that depth in combat you were talking about by the way, it does exist in Elite, people just overlook it because, as it usually the case where combat has depth, the easiest methods are usually the most commonly used and therefore confused with the best despite not being the actual best methods at all. The fact that you don't see it as deep simply shows that what you consider depth isn't what others consider depth, not that your opinion on depth is wrong, it's simply differs.

And there's the problem again, depth is what you perceive it to be, not a concrete and definite thing at all, unless we're measuring the standing height of a liquid, and even then, what some call deep others will consider shallow

 

[JuicerPrime]

It's funny, actually ED is one of the best games in that regard, with all it's base professions paying about the same and different activities are usually balanced with their risk/reward ratios. Still, people criticise them of being disconnected or useless this time.

How long have you been with Elite? Before general release and up to around 1.2 (iirc) there was a serious problem of trading being the only viable way to make credits for ships in the FdL/Python price range or greater this side of the next ice age. The rewards for combat, smuggling and mining were minimal in comparison. One of the points people back then made about the FdL at its original 90 million price point was it was a ship you needed to trade to afford, even though it was no use to a trader.

The fact is, there have been a large number of asset releases in Elite which have been (on the surface) a dischordant mix of mismatched principles that have left, and periodically continue to leave, members of the community scratching their heads at the decisions that seems to have been behind their implementation. It's getting better, but those releases are still happening - the Horizon's ships are a few examples which are still causing debate over on the Ships forum. At the same time a lot of the older assets that people assumed were placeholders because of their limited implementation and buggy nature remain by-and-large the way they have been since beta, with a few tweaks to the RNG and added variety.

All of this might have good reasons for being in the running, but one thing the community has to contend with in trying to work out where all this is leading to is Frontier's policy of silence except for community-specific announcements. From being part of the forums since beta, I have a suspicion that it's starting to make some members of the community vocally concerned for the direction of development. Even though ED is David Braben's personal vision and its design and development are absolutely none of our business, it's still a thing you have to contend with when a community is invested in and passionately supports a project they've willingly given financial and emotional support to, especially one with the potential and ambitions of ED.

So...there you go. You might be surprised to find there's a lot of critics on the forums at the moment who loyally support Frontier and ED even as they speak out about what's concerning them. It's far from being simple binary equation of "haters vs. loyalists," and has been since beta - possibly before, but I wasn't part of ED back in the mythic days of Alpha and the Founders

 

[Hilight]

Indeed, and that is HIGHLY strange. How about on ONE planet , for instance, OUR planet, earth, price variation are huge, and in an ENTIRE galaxy, MULTI hundred LY, prices are stable and not variable overall??

NOT a dynamic market.

Prices vary enough that players have to search for profitable routes which is sufficient variation for the purposes of the game. If they were in fact, not dynamic and didn't vary between stations no one would have look very far to find a good route. The trade tools would also not have to ever be updated.

 

[CMDR Hagglebeard]

Ah depth in combat...there's always that best weapon or combination of weapons, that best attack style/method, it's just the way it works, just like reality. In Elite however, the pulse/MC combo isn't actually the best, it's just the most convenient. Rails are actually far better than MCs, they just require more skill to use effectively, so the pulse/MC isn't actually the best at all. It is however the most commonly used because it's easy, and the two are often confused. That's that depth in combat you were talking about by the way, it does exist in Elite, people just overlook it because, as it usually the case where combat has depth, the easiest methods are usually the most commonly used and therefore confused with the best despite not being the actual best methods at all. The fact that you don't see it as deep simply shows that what you consider depth isn't what others consider depth, not that your opinion on depth is wrong, it's simply differs.

And there's the problem again, depth is what you perceive it to be, not a concrete and definite thing at all, unless we're measuring the standing height of a liquid, and even then, what some call deep others will consider shallow

I disagree with that. Railguns cannot be better than gimballed multicannons because it is physically impossible for a player at any skill level to hit with railguns consistently and effectively enough to deal the same amount of damage, and to get the same result. Remember, a power plant is a tiny target.

I dare you to find me any player in the world who isn't using any form of aim assist to get 100% hit rate with railguns on a power plant of say, a Type 7.

EDIT: Read this post, might sound, err, snarky? Please don't take it as such.