Space Travel: Collaborative Review

[Decksmeck]

Once you have discovered secondary stars in a system you can select them in the system map and hyper jump to them.

You can use all thrusters in supercruise. Just for fun.

Problem with space is that there isn't many obstacles. Therefore the destinations need to be very engaging. Also, our own personal storyline needs to be engaging. It is bad if you get bored with Your Own Story.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I don't personally feel that traveling will be made more engaging by slapping a minigame over the top of it - especially not one that essentially turns it into Mario Kart.
Whatever the mechanic, once you've done it 100 times then it becomes a chore, rather than actively fun - at which point the argument about travel mechanics start again with demands for yet faster travel.

Take interdiction (remember when people complained about it being a minigame, rather than asking for it to be replicated elsewhere?) as an example:
It takes a few attempts to master during which time it's fun, but once you can win every time it becomes nothing more than a repetitive timesink.

All these (and all the other) suggestions sound great on paper, but all they do is just kick the can down the road.

The idea is variation and options. When you have only one way to travel between systems, it’s certainly going to get tired quickly. If you can gear different modes of travel to be better choices in certain scenarios and for certain playstyles, you give the player choices that can result in varying degrees of success and efficiency.

You don’t need anyone to tell you that people are going to complain or nitpick no matter what, so that’s not always the best way to gauge whether a feature is worthwhile.

If a few alternate forms of travel can be balanced to give players some more options, and reward skill and effort while injecting some more challenging and fun gameplay, I think it would benefit the game overall.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

I think a better idea is to have each person talk about their own idea instead of OP reposting Other peoples ideas in a new topic. The reason would be. If everyone focuses good or bad on one idea. The other ideas are Ignored. So I have to say no.

I think a better idea is to let people decide for themselves. No one needs to be told that they can choose to participate in this proposed collaboration or create a separate thread for their idea. As far as I’m concerned, both are welcome. You’re also welcome to say no to collaborating in this thread, though that’s hardly unexpected from you.

Each person’s ideas are placed in their own spoiler containers, so people can choose which ones they want to read and comment on, in the same way they can choose which threads they want to read and comment on. I also think it’s handy to have these travel mode suggestions grouped in one thread, as a convenience for any Frontier development staff who might want to look through them.

 

[ZeroAi]

Micro-Jumps:

I think the reason so many authors include micro jumps in their novels it that there's no Logical reason to include "long jumps" but not short ones.

Honestly, if your "space engine/drive" can jump light years it can jump light seconds too. In fact, we already make "micro jumps" every time a Thargoid hyperdicts us.

But if you guys don't think it would make the game better no worries here, other games have implemented it and it works great in them, but not every game can have every feature ;-)

o7

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Micro-Jumps:

I think the reason so many authors include micro jumps in their novels it that there's no Logical reason to include "long jumps" but not short ones.

Honestly, if your "space engine/drive" can jump light years it can jump light seconds too. In fact, we already make "micro jumps" every time a Thargoid hyperdicts us.

But if you guys don't think it would make the game better no worries here, other games have implemented it and it works great in them, but not every game can have every feature ;-)

o7

It might work. It would just depend on how it’s done. It’s probably the more difficult sell, so it would have to be a really good pitch. But then that’s what this proposal is about, as people can point out issues and suggest ways to solve them.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I don't personally feel that traveling will be made more engaging by slapping a minigame over the top of it - especially not one that essentially turns it into Mario Kart.
Whatever the mechanic, once you've done it 100 times then it becomes a chore, rather than actively fun - at which point the argument about travel mechanics start again with demands for yet faster travel.

I think this depends how it's done. I never get tired of doing fast supercruise approaches to planets - the last minute or so of each trip. The fast orbital cruise zone is very similar to the "charge from a planet orbit" idea as well.

Considering how long we spend in supercruise, adding more ways to optimise the travel and allow engagement with the process to speed it up overall is definitely a good thing. Especially if - like the fast approaches - it's a natural consequence of the basic supercruise rules, rather than a separate "minigame"

For example:

You can use all thrusters in supercruise. Just for fun.

I'm pretty sure this would make final approach even more fun. Allowing faster turns in general, so your supercruise turn rate matches your normal space turn rate, would be good too - I rarely fly anything bigger than a Cobra most of the time because the supercruise agility on the bigger stuff is too low (Krait is okay, Python and FDL are bearable ... I don't get how anyone ever flies anything larger)

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I think this depends how it's done. I never get tired of doing fast supercruise approaches to planets - the last minute or so of each trip. The fast orbital cruise zone is very similar to the "charge from a planet orbit" idea as well.

Considering how long we spend in supercruise, adding more ways to optimise the travel and allow engagement with the process to speed it up overall is definitely a good thing. Especially if - like the fast approaches - it's a natural consequence of the basic supercruise rules, rather than a separate "minigame"

For example:

I'm pretty sure this would make final approach even more fun. Allowing faster turns in general, so your supercruise turn rate matches your normal space turn rate, would be good too - I rarely fly anything bigger than a Cobra most of the time because the supercruise agility on the bigger stuff is too low (Krait is okay, Python and FDL are bearable ... I don't get how anyone ever flies anything larger)

Yes, there are parts of A->B travel that are fun. But they key here, and in the neutron highway example, is that that's only PART of the journey. The other 98% of the journey is 'dull' because it's all the same. If you make all the journey the same, even if it's initially more exciting, it'll soon become tedious.

 

[Tarman]

I remember a really good discussion way last year I was having with Frenotx and Golgot about variable supercruise mechanics, which was drowned out by the riot over Open-Only. Ima reconstruct what I remember, so hopefully at least some of it is the stuff I thought of too.

Very first, a return to deeper system gravity. This provides a system with more "terrain", to make system navigation something beyond "point ship dat way". Right now it's closer to Desert Bus in terms of gravogeographic effects; lots of nuthin. There's not much point in introducing anything that can speed travel or provide alternate routing when there's hardly anything to slow us down or move around as it is.

Variable and alterable supercruise profiles. Having one operation profile for all ships everywhere is boring and predictable; it provides little tactical, strategic, or shipbuilding consideration for flying across any given system arrangement. Variability is already reflected a small bit in SC turn rates, but could be extended to speed profiles as well, including accel and decel parameters. Throw outfitting (and yes haters even Engineering) on top of this, and now everyone has much more of a say in how their ship handles in the mode we fly it in most. It's almost a waste, how much work goes into our normalspace flight profiles by comparison.

Frenotx introduced an active-booster concept that would burn fuel and generate heat, with a risk of ship damage if you really push the limits. This allows a dangerous override to the above SC speed variability, so if you really neeed to, you can hurt yourself to get that extra speed. It also gives a neat use for fuel tanks, because really, fuel is laying about everywares in the galaxy and fuel scoops are pretty ubiquitous kit. Having a burn tank so you can boost your way into or out of trouble (even if you cook a little >__> ) seems like a fun thing and would give a more interesting reason to cart extra fuel outside of deep-space exploration or being really really paranoid about gassing out.

Golgot had an idea for insys micro-jumps which parallels the slingshot tunnel mentioned earlier; skill-based piloting at great hazard. It'd be even faster than a booster with no chance of interdictions, but the risk of being dead if you screw it up is waaaaaay higher. I'm perfectly fine with a faster but super-high-risk method being available, because Golgot's Space Coaster of Death would be fun.

While I'm wishing for things, I'd remove system wide scanners and introduce EWAR kit and counter kit to really add spice to SC, but that's technically outside the scope of this thread. It pairs extremely well with a varied approach to supercruise operation parameters however.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

I remember a really good discussion way last year I was having with Frenotx and Golgot about variable supercruise mechanics, which was drowned out by the riot over Open-Only. Ima reconstruct what I remember, so hopefully at least some of it is the stuff I thought of too.

Very first, a return to deeper system gravity. This provides a system with more "terrain", to make system navigation something beyond "point ship dat way". Right now it's closer to Desert Bus in terms of gravogeographic effects; lots of nuthin. There's not much point in introducing anything that can speed travel or provide alternate routing when there's hardly anything to slow us down or move around as it is.

Variable and alterable supercruise profiles. Having one operation profile for all ships everywhere is boring and predictable; it provides little tactical, strategic, or shipbuilding consideration for flying across any given system arrangement. Variability is already reflected a small bit in SC turn rates, but could be extended to speed profiles as well, including accel and decel parameters. Throw outfitting (and yes haters even Engineering) on top of this, and now everyone has much more of a say in how their ship handles in the mode we fly it in most. It's almost a waste, how much work goes into our normalspace flight profiles by comparison.

Frenotx introduced an active-booster concept that would burn fuel and generate heat, with a risk of ship damage if you really push the limits. This allows a dangerous override to the above SC speed variability, so if you really neeed to, you can hurt yourself to get that extra speed. It also gives a neat use for fuel tanks, because really, fuel is laying about everywares in the galaxy and fuel scoops are pretty ubiquitous kit. Having a burn tank so you can boost your way into or out of trouble (even if you cook a little >__> ) seems like a fun thing and would give a more interesting reason to cart extra fuel outside of deep-space exploration or being really really paranoid about gassing out.

Golgot had an idea for insys micro-jumps which parallels the slingshot tunnel mentioned earlier; skill-based piloting at great hazard. It'd be even faster than a booster with no chance of interdictions, but the risk of being dead if you screw it up is waaaaaay higher. I'm perfectly fine with a faster but super-high-risk method being available, because Golgot's Space Coaster of Death would be fun.

While I'm wishing for things, I'd remove system wide scanners and introduce EWAR kit and counter kit to really add spice to SC, but that's technically outside the scope of this thread. It pairs extremely well with a varied approach to supercruise operation parameters however.

Agree that supercruise 'terrain' needs to be made more 'rugged' to get out of flying in straight lines.
Agree with outfitting options to change supercruise flight characteristics.

Boosters are just the standard RPG sprint mechanic. Press the button until you're nearly exhausted, release until recharged, press again, repeat ad nausem. Fuel is too cheap/free so using it is meaningless. Maybe a one-shot booster that can only be recharged at a station would work.

Not a fan of Mario Kart speed boosts, even with a risk of death involved - especially since it'll be impossible for FDev to set the difficulty at a level that's appropriate for every player (see interdictions).

 

[Tarman]

Agree that supercruise 'terrain' needs to be made more 'rugged' to get out of flying in straight lines.
Agree with outfitting options to change supercruise flight characteristics.

Boosters are just the standard RPG sprint mechanic. Press the button until you're nearly exhausted, release until recharged, press again, repeat ad nausem. Fuel is too cheap/free so using it is meaningless. Maybe a one-shot booster that can only be recharged at a station would work.

Not a fan of Mario Kart speed boosts, even with a risk of death involved - especially since it'll be impossible for FDev to set the difficulty at a level that's appropriate for every player (see interdictions).

IDK, I never lit on fire from sprinting in a video game before without actually running through a fire. The only time sprinting costs me a fake life is in STALKER, where sprinting off most of your energy is easy (and sometimes even pointless especially with full pockets), and makes you waaaay slower for a time (and louder because you're panting) if you bottom it out.

I do like the one-shot concept, though if the boost burns sufficient chunks of standard fuel it'll still be an operational concern during the flight (perhaps an exponentially rising rate the more power/speed you get from it, with corresponding heat); and if you overdrive it to the point it's cooking you like an oldschool between-star dropout bbq AND you need the Fuel Rats on speed-dial, the risk of flameout and/or gasout should be offputting enough to avoid the hi-boost setting becoming an always-on item.

I envision a booster system generally adding smaller amounts of daily driver speed (to ensure you're actually doing something to maintain a constant rate of travel besides making a single throttle setting), fun for surfing heavy gravity wells with some bit of inherent danger and cost, and as an ONOES option to risk possible death and damage to try and avoid certain death and damage.

The skillcap and risk of death for the microjump tunnel needs to be stupid high; even a survivable failure should just dump you somewhere randomly in the system, preferably far from anything useful. That covers reward for good piloting and a discouragement for everyone to always take the fastest way, if it could turn out to be the really really longest way even if you live. Exciting though!

And yeah, for some pilots even the Death Coaster would be easy, but that's the same for the entire game. Some things are impossible to set up evenly for everyone, like all of space combat, but that doesn't preclude its existence.

IDW to open a freeway and skip SC travel entirely, I want there to be much more varied approaches to the entire movement phase, because we spend soooo much time there. My big-picture concept is increasing danger the faster you wanna go. Regular method is safest but overall slowest by comparison, which would just be mostly what we have now barring any ship-based profile alterations and actual navigation skills as discussed earlier. Boosters for a bit more op room, more general risk just by using it, and way more risk the more you squeeze from it, though overall still inside the "normal" travel times. Death Coaster should have a "gl o7" message and a reminder of your rebuy cost before you head inside, it should be the the hi-end CZ of SC travel.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Slingshotting...my own take on it:

I've been giving this some thought (since I'm currently in a 'hurry up and wait' stage at work) and here are my suggestions. To distinguish this from Novindus's original I'm going to call it 'Chained jumps'.

A Chained jump starts as normal, by plotting a route in the galaxy map. However, you'd tick a "Chained Jumps" box (in the same way we choose between economic and fast).

Once you start a chained jump you stay in the Witchspace tunnel and you have to take over some of the piloting - think the effect of a Thargoid interdiction, where the tunnel is moving around - you'd have to stay centered. And because it's a Chained jump, the nav comp goes into 'cautious' mode and restricts your speed to below what a normal, automated jump would be - hence you stay in the tunnel for more time between stars. This prevents Chained jumps from being a distance nullifier. (Suggestion - if we assume that people spend 60 seconds between jumps, allowing for FSD cooldown and getting to the other side of the star, Chained jumps should stay in the tunnel for 30-40s longer - hence a Chained jump saves at best 20-30s per star).

Fuel use: Chained jumps use a fixed amount of fuel to initiate the jump, a fixed amount to exit, and a random amount depending on how you exit (gracefully, appallingly, etc). While in the tunnel your ship uses normal (or slightly accelerated) running costs.

There will be turbulence (I'm a big fan of that) and the degree of it will be dependent on the last star you last chained from. (My other suggestion is that turbulence is greater at the start and end of each 'link', with the middle part of the transit being relatively calm - just not totally).

KGBFOAM's should be relatively benign, with the rest having increasingly nasty effects (some upside/downside needs to be considered here). Failure to navigate correctly (ie colliding with the Witchspace tunnel wall) would result in you being expelled from Witchspace, in a possibly random location (suggestion: a random star within a bubble the radius of your ship's maximum jump range, centered on the last star you chained from) and with varying levels of damage ranging from light to "I'm humped", and with significant fuel loss. Hence you may end up at a T-Tauri without enough fuel to jump anywhere - time to call International Rescue the Fuel Rats.

Ideally a perfectly executed set of chained jumps should be only a little quicker than doing it the normal way, you just use less fuel and have one hell of a ride. Using this method you could, in theory, chain jump all the way from the Bubble to Sag A, the only limit being your own physical endurance capabilities. So actually, no you couldn't unless you team up with someone physically at your location to take over piloting from you for a bit.

The only downside I can immediately see is this effectively removes the chance of being intercepted at stars en route.

Now, this is really rough around the edges, especially where fuel use is concerned. I'd like a way of staying in the tunnel for a long time that's compatible with existing Elite lore.

Thoughts?

Added to the list. Will have a think later on any issues this may cause, and how they might be mitigated.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

It's not a matter of jump range and upper limits, it's more a matter of adding gameplay and bonus vs. risk to place holder/boring mechanics.

My suggestion to improve Supercruise:
WHAT?
2001c max speed is fast enough, I don't see the need to improve the top end speed, but the acceleration/deceleration is a real pain. Too slow in my opnion.
The ship could get a boost in acceleration by riding planets orbit, like a sport cars reduce aerodynamic drag by riding another car wake.
Planets, moons and stars could leave a "gravity wake" that reduce the mass interference that affect our FSD acceleration.

HOW?
First you need to fly to the orbit line of a planet. Then you need to fly the ship as accurate as possible following the orbit line. When you are accurate enough the FSD can detect the gravity wake left by the planet. Once this is detected a virtual tunnel is shown on your HUD. While you ride the tunnel a loading bar shows up. Filling the bar would require some time (30 to 60 seconds). When the bar is full you have your boost ready. If you fail and leave the tunnel you'll have no boost and your ship will slow down and drift away witthout control for few seconds and when speed is lower than 1Mm/s it will exit supercruise (with no damage). You can then enter supercruise and try again.

If you succeed the ship will get a boost for acceleration and a boost for deceleration. The first one can be shot while riding the gravity wake tunnel (no outside).
Once you shoot the boost you can maneuver your ship for a limited time (let's say 5 seconds) to align your target location, after that any modification to the route will stop the boosted acceleration and will half your speed.
The boost is canceled also if you fly in the range of 1000 ls of a star, 100 ls of a gas giant, 50 ls of any planet. The speed wont'be halved in this case.

The boost increases the ship acceleration by a factor of 4x and the fuel consumption by a factor of 8x and its effect lasts for a total of 5 minutes (value can be adjusted to improve game balance). After that the ship will proceed accelerating at the normal rate. When this happens also the fuel rate will stabilize back to the normal rate. If you apply a correction to the route the speed will be halved and the ship will recover the lost speed with a normal acceleration.

The deceleration boost can be shot as soon as the ship start decelerating under the influence of another star gravity well. It can be shot whithin 5 seconds since the ships starts slowing down. This boost allows the ship to keep the current top-speed for a longer time thanks to the improved deceleration. The deceleration is again 4x times stronger and uses 8X fuel. It allows deceleration from any speed down to 100c. Any correction to the route in this phase will cancel the boost so the ship will not be able to slow down in time and you will overshoot your destination, this will force you to do a big "loop of shame".

When speed is lower than 100c the ship is maneuverable again.

Added to the list.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

Once you have discovered secondary stars in a system you can select them in the system map and hyper jump to them.

You can use all thrusters in supercruise. Just for fun.

Problem with space is that there isn't many obstacles. Therefore the destinations need to be very engaging. Also, our own personal storyline needs to be engaging. It is bad if you get bored with Your Own Story.

Added to the list.

 

[VR CMDR Novindus]

IDK, I never lit on fire from sprinting in a video game before without actually running through a fire. The only time sprinting costs me a fake life is in STALKER, where sprinting off most of your energy is easy (and sometimes even pointless especially with full pockets), and makes you waaaay slower for a time (and louder because you're panting) if you bottom it out.

I do like the one-shot concept, though if the boost burns sufficient chunks of standard fuel it'll still be an operational concern during the flight (perhaps an exponentially rising rate the more power/speed you get from it, with corresponding heat); and if you overdrive it to the point it's cooking you like an oldschool between-star dropout bbq AND you need the Fuel Rats on speed-dial, the risk of flameout and/or gasout should be offputting enough to avoid the hi-boost setting becoming an always-on item.

I envision a booster system generally adding smaller amounts of daily driver speed (to ensure you're actually doing something to maintain a constant rate of travel besides making a single throttle setting), fun for surfing heavy gravity wells with some bit of inherent danger and cost, and as an ONOES option to risk possible death and damage to try and avoid certain death and damage.

The skillcap and risk of death for the microjump tunnel needs to be stupid high; even a survivable failure should just dump you somewhere randomly in the system, preferably far from anything useful. That covers reward for good piloting and a discouragement for everyone to always take the fastest way, if it could turn out to be the really really longest way even if you live. Exciting though!

And yeah, for some pilots even the Death Coaster would be easy, but that's the same for the entire game. Some things are impossible to set up evenly for everyone, like all of space combat, but that doesn't preclude its existence.

IDW to open a freeway and skip SC travel entirely, I want there to be much more varied approaches to the entire movement phase, because we spend soooo much time there. My big-picture concept is increasing danger the faster you wanna go. Regular method is safest but overall slowest by comparison, which would just be mostly what we have now barring any ship-based profile alterations and actual navigation skills as discussed earlier. Boosters for a bit more op room, more general risk just by using it, and way more risk the more you squeeze from it, though overall still inside the "normal" travel times. Death Coaster should have a "gl o7" message and a reminder of your rebuy cost before you head inside, it should be the the hi-end CZ of SC travel.

Added to the list.