[SPECULATION] Defeating the Thargoids = Python MkII

Morbad

Morbad
Northpin said:
Kraits are faster and more maneuverable than Pythons and can perma boost on 2 pips, which makes pip management somehow easier compared to other ships
They said are not yet decided on Mk2 internals - so they can gimp it in that departments

Mamba has shields almost as good as the FDL and not sure how well represented is in PVP (and no, i dont consider ganking and seal clubbing as pvp which seem to be the primary usage scenario for mamba due to her high escape speed)
Actually in competitive pvp i dont think i've seen people using anything else bar FDL

Anyway, i dont have any high hopes for the Mk2 and i dont really trust FDev (sorry FD, no offence intended) when it comes to balance stuff, especially around PVP.

The way "balance" seem to work in ED is either total nerfs (totally nerfing mining for example) or over the top improvments (like the FDL, or the heat proof Dolphin, ax combat bonds overkill payments, exobio overkill payments)
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galahad2069 said:
The main problem with Kraits is their weak boost, but that's not a bad thing tbh because their huge distributor that makes them capable of permaboosting on 2 pips would also make them pretty OP if the boost was stronger, and a low skill meta ship is always a bad idea.

From what little we know about the Python Mk2, it seems to be a stronger version of the pacifier+rail bank tank Python, which is already a cancer build to fight against because of drag munitions and the virtually infinite number of banks, it's just that the Python is (luckily) too slow, so you can largely just ignore it.

We'll see what kind of flight model the Mk2 has, if it's a fast ship with good boost and strong lats/verts, then it will be pretty OP. If the flight model is not that great, well, then maybe we'll just have an ultimate Cutter killer.
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Other than the abbreviated, low-cost, boost (which is important) and different base velocities, the Python and the Kraits have very similar flight models...all are rather sensitive to the blue zone and all have similar thruster ENG pip slopes (steeper than most combat ships, but not as bad as most other cargo/mutlipurpose ships) and a similar lateral vs. forward acceleration balance. The Python does have a slightly better pitch rate.

If I had to guess, based on what's been revealed and Frontier's past precedents with upgrades and inflation, my money is on the Python Mk II being an excuse to reintroduce something close to the original (the one that was nerfed back in 1.1) Python specs (17% more thrust, everywhere, plus 50% more shielding). Basically, I think it will turn and boost like a Python (just faster), be about as fast as the FDL, and have shields between the FDL and Anaconda. I think they'll try to limit it's multifunctionality by going with fewer optional internals than the Python and making two or three of them military slots. No idea if they'll make the slots large enough to pile on the good SCBs.

I don't think it will be as agile as an FDL (worse lateral thrusters, worse boost acceleration, and a mildly inferior pitch rate), nor do I think it will get the Krait boost (it's a Python MkII not a Krait MkIII), and will likely be relatively hard to fly (due to the greater blue zone sensitivity and steeper ENG pip slope). I still think it will be fast enough to keep up and I think the shield and weapons loadout will be comparatively overpowered.

Just speculation at this point though.
 
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galahad2069

G
Morbad said:
Other than the abbreviated, low-cost, boost (which is important) and different base velocities, the Python and the Kraits have very similar flight models...all are rather sensitive to the blue zone and all have similar thruster ENG pip slopes (steeper than most combat ships, but not as bad as most other cargo/mutlipurpose ships) and a similar lateral vs. forward acceleration balance. The Python does have a slightly better pitch rate.

If I had to guess, based on what's been revealed and Frontier's past precedents with upgrades and inflation, my money is on the Python Mk II being an excuse to reintroduce something close to the original (the one that was nerfed back in 1.1) Python specs (17% more thrust, everywhere, plus 50% more shielding). Basically, I think it will turn and boost like a Python (just faster), be about as fast as the FDL, and have shields between the FDL and Anaconda. I think they'll try to limit it's multifunctionality by going with fewer optional internals than the Python and making two or three of them military slots. No idea if they'll make the slots large enough to pile on the good SCBs.

I don't think it will be as agile as an FDL (worse lateral thrusters, worse boost acceleration, and a mildly inferior pitch rate), nor do I think it will get the Krait boost (it's a Python MkII not a Krait MkIII), and will likely be relatively hard to fly (due to the greater blue zone sensitivity and steeper ENG pip slope). I still think it will be fast enough to keep up and I think the shield and weapons loadout will be comparatively overpowered.

Just speculation at this point though.
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I was mainly speaking from wingfighting perspective. Yeah the Kraits can be OK 1v1 ships (and so is the Python btw), but they are terrible in wingfights, mainly because the weak boost of Kraits makes preturning and maintaining a consistent tailing position virtually impossible, therefore their dps will be negligible.

It reminds me of the RoA hulltank league. FDLs were banned in that league (even biweave FDLs), so the most commonly used ships were the Chieftain and the FAS, but there were a couple of Phantoms too. One day a player from another team asked us to give them some tactical advice against their next opponents, because one those players was using a frag Phantom, and he knew how difficult it was to win a 1v1 against a fast frag Phantom (that could just run away to recharge its biweave) using their league ships.

The advice was simple: just ignore the Phantom, kill its wingmates first, then gang up on him and you won't need to 1v1 it. The Phantom won't be able to tail you, so it won't be able to deal any meaningful damage, which means there will be 1 less ship's worth of pressure on your first focused wingmate. :)
 

Morbad

Morbad
galahad2069 said:
I was mainly speaking from wingfighting perspective. Yeah the Kraits can be OK 1v1 ships (and so is the Python btw), but they are terrible in wingfights, mainly because the weak boost of Kraits makes preturning and maintaining a consistent tailing position virtually impossible, therefore their dps will be negligible.

It reminds me of the RoA hulltank league. FDLs were banned in that league (even biweave FDLs), so the most commonly used ships were the Chieftain and the FAS, but there were a couple of Phantoms too. One day a player from another team asked us to give them some tactical advice against their next opponents, because one those players was using a frag Phantom, and he knew how difficult it was to win a 1v1 against a fast frag Phantom (that could just run away to recharge its biweave) using their league ships.

The advice was simple: just ignore the Phantom, kill its wingmates first, then gang up on him and you won't need to 1v1 it. The Phantom won't be able to tail you, so it won't be able to deal any meaningful damage, which means there will be 1 less ship's worth of pressure on your first focused wingmate. :)
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Frags have the disadvantage of needing good range control, which, as you say, is hard for the Kraits to manage if people are willing to ignore it in favor of other foes. I don't have anywhere as much recent wing PvP experience as yourself, but I think the issue here is more the frags than the ship. Put weapons that still work at range on a Krait and they can't be ignored, even if it makes them less than ideal in a duel.

I think this new Python will have the pitch rate to point four large PAs at anything engaging it, and still be able to be obnoxious with rails or drag frags on those medium hardpoints. It will be like, well like a Python that isn't slow, but with even more firepower and durability.

Maybe it will have enough flaws that I'm not anticipating to keep it from outclassing the current medium favorites, but I think Frontier is perfectly willing to depreciate the mass of current ships when it comes to combat, leaving this Python balanced mostly against one or more of the other new ships. That's where the revenue stream is...selling paints for ships everyone will want, or need, to have.
 

galahad2069

G
Morbad said:
Frags have the disadvantage of needing good range control, which, as you say, is hard for the Kraits to manage if people are willing to ignore it in favor of other foes. I don't have anywhere as much recent wing PvP experience as yourself, but I think the issue here is more the frags than the ship. Put weapons that still work at range on a Krait and they can't be ignored, even if it makes them less than ideal in a duel.

I think this new Python will have the pitch rate to point four large PAs at anything engaging it, and still be able to be obnoxious with rails or drag frags on those medium hardpoints. It will be like, well like a Python that isn't slow, but with even more firepower and durability.

Maybe it will have enough flaws that I'm not anticipating to keep it from outclassing the current medium favorites, but I think Frontier is perfectly willing to depreciate the mass of current ships when it comes to combat, leaving this Python balanced mostly against one or more of the other new ships. That's where the revenue stream is...selling paints for ships everyone will want, or need, to have.
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Yeah ofc, they could have used a long range railspamming or laser build, but that would not have helped them in that situation. I did not tell you the whole story, but basically everyone was expecting railspamming obviously (because nearly everyone had biweave hybrid builds), so nearly everyone was using the funny mirrored hull with >70% thermal resistance in that league, so lasers and rails were nearly useless.

IIRC the only round we lost in that entire league happened because one of our opponents had a wing of 2 PA FAS and a railspamming Chief, and we were stupid enough to swallow the bait (because of the 'always focus the hitscan' rule of thumb reflex). In the next round we adapted, ignored the railspam and killed the 2 plasma ships first (which were always supposed to be their main damage dealers), and that one was a pretty easy win (although my poor first focused Chief was full of holes by the end of it). :)
 

Elpapo

Elpapo
Fact alone, that it has 4 large and 2 medium, and 6 utility slots, and very likely PD size 7 and PP of size 7(since its python), makes it very powerfull already and be gonna make it king of dps of all mediums. Size of this ship seems like its biggest ship of medium landing pad, so I guessing it might have hefty mass lock factor, better than FDL or mamba, since it cant be lighter than these, based on looks only. I also wonder how its thermal handling will be, and its base thermal signature what it will be.

We dont know yet what its internals will be, but I am guessing atleast one size 6 slot for shields, and no more than 3 or 4 optimals slots, wich might be even military restricted, if they said wanna it make rival to FDL or mamba, cuz yeah, the PVP combat focus ships never had too many optional slots to begin with, atleast those with 6 utility.

Im kinda certain it wont be faster than FDL, but it might be able to almost match it in terms of speed. For mauverability, it might be better than mamba, as pre-nerf python handled like viper, but I doubt that FDL would give its crown in that field such easly.

Either way, seems like there will be new meta soon as this ship is out. Gankers gonna love it, becasue of its sheer firepower potential. I can already picture wings of nothing but this ship in upcoming CG's once this ship is relased.
 

Cmdr. Numa

Cmdr. Numa
Lets just hope it doesn't suffer the same fate as this fella coming out of the gate gimped:
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DjVortex

DjVortex
Imagine: "Top 10 commanders who deal damage to Taranis get a free Python MkII. Otherwise the ship becomes available for purchase next month."

Now that would be an awesome reward.
 
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