A gentleman never tells.
Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12
- Thread starter Yaffle
- Start date
-
- Tags
- star citizen
Yea, this is true for any DX11 game, SC has a lot going on and its well threaded, all of my 16 threads are doing something in this game, none are ever idle, but DX11 has this limitation of the Main thread, (Draw Call Calc) and Render Thread, each one of those tasks will only use one of your cores, or threads. This is the bottleneck, people on low end or old CPU's will feel it the most, but even people on the best CPU's are still bottlenecked to some extent, my CPU has the fastest cores you can get right now (AMD Ryzen 5800X) and i'm still seeing bottlenecks in large cities.
Gen12 / Vulkan will not only fix this, by spreading that load across as many threads as you have but give them that much more headroom, but, it still depends on your CPU, if you're running an older 4 thread, 6 thread, even 8 thread CPU Gen12 / Vulkan may not actually make any difference at all because you may not have that headroom in your CPU, fully loaded my CPU is literally 3 times as fast as a Core i7 4790K and if CIG decide they want to use my CPU or a Core i9 10900K as the baseline CPU performance for 60Hz then someone with an older CPU is out of luck.
However the bulk of people are running older or lower end CPU's, Having said that you cannot create huge complex vistas without pulling a crapload of draw calls.
If only there was a solution to all this, like, i don't know, I probably don't understand software development, but dialing down the fidelity to the point where things still look great but actually run well on current gen hardware with current gen tech. I don't know, just throwing out random ideas, but other developers somehow seem to achieve great graphics without causing their games to melt the computers.
Yeah, there are optimisation tweaks.
Lets say you want to create a vista with lots of trees, you want to put down 1,000 trees, each tree has a number of draw calls, lets say 3, so that's 3,000 draw calls, now lets say you want to add shadows to those trees, because trees without shadows look weird, shadows are quite expensive, 10 draw calls each, now you're up to 30,000 draw calls, you don't like them just standing there static, you want them to move a little in the wind, now you're manipulating vertices, that's really expensive, 50 draw calls each, now you're pushing 1,500,000 draw calls.
The scene looks great but its chocking the CPU's main thread, you need to reduce those draw calls, one technique you can use is culling, so you can set it so that beyond half distance the trees don't move and they don't have any shadows, now everything at up to 300 meters has shadows and is moving, anything beyond that range doesn't (you may have seen something like this in games) its a reduction in quality, you can see in the distance trees don't have shadows, they don't move, but you've cut you draw calls in half and the performance is much better.
Gamers are no different to bikers. They always dream about finding the perfect partner who shares more than a passing interest in their hobby or passion. I was particularly blessed through meeting one of those rare and sought after creatures 34 years ago...loves bikes, can strip a Triumph T-140 engine down about as quickly as I can, loves gaming and tolerated me rebuilding engines or gearboxes (or PC's) on the kitchen table when we were too poor to own a garage or workshed... as well as spending way too many years and too much money pursuing both hobbies...she bakes and cooks too
Last edited:
While I share the first reaction "this isnt specific to Star Citizen" I find the topic fascinating and reading it from a victims perspective allows me to take a look in a drastically different manner because face it....being male this has never really touched me apart from the "I think you pretend to be a girl gamer" situation. But yeah, this wont be the place to talk about it. What the author adresses is rather a lack of prevention or protection for a minority within the community. And I realize this is a sensitive topic with a lot of people probably going social warrior about the "girls can be gamers too" but yeah.....in my 30+ years of gaming I can verify that actual girls are a rarity, even today when the total number seems high STILL is miniscule compared to the male counterpart in addition to how many females I encounter in games, of course not counting the ones "hiding" their gender.
I m one of the lucky ones. My wife is not only video game tolerant...shes also a girl gamer even before I met her. And she confirmed that stance numerous times. Identify as a girl and you are going to get harassed or become subject to unwanted attention. I never understood that going with my own view but yeah....a lot of gaming can become rather irritating when interacting with boys or men who think you are a girl (I have no problem playing female characters so...)
This problem isnt specific to video games either. Also it wont get fixed anytime soon. Not as long as nature is dictating the development of hormones and society making the whole thing a literal minefield to walk in /sigh. While the thought of getting "old" is oftentimes frustrating I know I wouldnt want to switch places with a youngling today, where social media becomes your rolemodel and you cant do anything without triggering a life-destroying digital crapstorm over nothing.
The issue here isnt really the social interaction, its the lack of tools to handle the potential fallout. If an online-only game, designed to experience together with others lacks the features to adjust, finetune and change your own take on your participation thats a problem. And I m going after Stuarts comment here, as I dont know if the alpha really lacks those features or not. It might be ignorance but it also might be SCs state of eternal "early days".
And I need to be fair here, just as Agony said....it IS an alpha which means these features missing isnt a surprise and also nothing the project deserves bashing for at this point of time. It IS a very raw, very early take on something after all....a decade in the running.
The fact that the author blindsides to the obvious explanation and focuses on her personal experience, acting as if this is news to the world (probably is to her) just drives the point home that a lot of backers dont understand the concept of an alpha and what Star Citizen actually is, as ironic as that is. I cant blame her. The predatory and deceptive marketing combined with the ever-present white knighting makes it hard to distinguish between a tech demo and a real video game.
And so a lot of frustration is born out of the misconception, running into walls and potholes with your own expectations dialed up to 180 and harsh reality not caring about your snowflake feelings.
I dont think that the events described in that wall of text are the norm but the confusion leading to it may very well be. How many people are playing Star Citizen acting as if its the best thing since sliced bread, willfully ignoring its issues and red flags, turning a blind eye to similar or superior things happening elsewhere? How many people white knight for Star Citizen and lead angry arguments, throw themselves into discussions to "defend" the project not because its the "right"! thing to do but because they want it to be what they desire? And the people rooted in reality who actually are able to distinguish between whats real and whats hype are designated "the skeptics" or "the haters"....just for telling how it is.
- When Star Citizen was a kickstarter back in 2012 people very much understood the risk they took and also that the project might very well fail and remain impossible, It was a high-risk attempt to create something special.
- the first couple of years went by as expected, maybe a little slower than the norm but still, nothing to become agitated about. Star Citizen wasnt even an alpha, the first take of what we ve come to know as Star Citizen was positive and impressive
- the more time passed the more terms like "alpha" and "unfinished" were pushed into the background, sidelined by the hype and the glamour, by the child-like fascination we all love to watch in others BUT even tho being pushed back they never become less of a problem.
- to this day "alpha" and "unfinished" and "raw" are the dominating qualities of Star Citizen....from a project management point of view which, sorry to say is the CRITICAL view when it comes to completion of the project. How much "fun" you personally have in this tech demo is of no importance and also doesnt matter at all when people discuss the projects qualities and future.
- whats changed is the companies and by proxy the communities perception and handling of these qualities to a degree where you can suspect intentional withholding of these things because people realize that painting Star Citizen as the picture it actually is speaks volumes AGAINST it. Which means admissions of "early days" or "its alpha" are like pulling teeth, not offered readily but of course being the first thing to be called upon when it comes to defending the project.
- I suspect that a lot of people today pick up Star Citizen expecting a half-finished game or something on the level of other alphas on the market (theres hardly alphas out there as raw and bad as SC anymore) receiving a rude awakening after x hours in the verse
- when you first inquire about Star Citizen TODAY it used to be far more likely to run into promises, corporation sweet-talk and day-dreaming than it was to come across the red flags, realistic views and warnings. This has changed due to the massive debt CiG has ramped up over the last two years or so ever since they began their deceptive marketing campaign (so probably since 2016).
- today Star Citizen is a project which tries to hide its ugly sides while over-presenting the few nice ones it has. You might argue that all companies do that but without change or improvement this becomes an issue rather quickly and video gamers are impatient and entitled in the end
A few people mentioned this in the past already. Promising the world and delivering placeholders only wont work out in the long run. Sadly, thats all Star Citizen has been doing ever since 3.0 back in 2016. If anything I m shocked that it took the masses this long to wake up and smell the roses. Places like this threadnaught are just the early birds, fought tooth and nail all the way but really, it never was a well disguised wound. It usually came down to coincidence when looking for SC related sites and news. And I know that Mole likes to state that the critical views displayed today everwhere are the norm and always have been but I dont believe that simply because I ve experienced times in the project where criticism and jestful poking were met with instant and overwhelming toxicity. If this isnt the case anymore today its because Star Citizen has managed to disappoint so many people who used to believe its promises that its impossible to stem the tide anymore so times definitely have changed
Today...I dont need to tell you the google-results coming back to you when you start with "Star citizen is..." but how many people are recruited personally, oftentimes by have-to-be-shills who describe digital paradise vehemently refusing to accept even a single negative point in return?
Star Citizen today simply is too large, too complex to grasp in a single instant. First impressions matter but if you want to understand the project and its history you have to put in the effort or rely on the summaries of people you trust and believe. And there is no shortage of people who are willing to put in the effort, the time to describe the project and their views in excrutiating detail....on both sides of the fence. Whenever someone like me puts in 20.000 words to warn about Star Citizen and to control your expectations there is an equal number of people who write the same amount of pure hype and day-dreaming.....words and posts merely are tools in transporting our intentions after all.
Apart from some hardcore people....HOW MANY are going to put in that time and effort when all they want is a game to pass the time? To glean some enjoyment?
And Star Citizen can do that....provide entertainment and being fun. And it can deny it in equal terms. It comes down not to the game but to the almighty god of RNG.
- are the servers going to hold up?
- are you going to run into a glitch every other minute?
- are your sessions terminated by an untimely/unfair death that wastes all the time you put into it?
- is your set-up sufficient or acceptable by the unoptimized and raw mistress Star Citizen?
- is your time spent within SC dominated by mistrust and scare of being "outed" muddling your enjoyment?
- if everything swings your way and you are lucky and can play for a few hours without a hitch and issue Star Citizen today can very well be a good game (if your requirements for a game are rather low...). SC wont win any prizes for complexity, content or features tho.
I simply dont believe that Star Citizen today provides a reliable and steady experience. Some folks will be lucky so I cant say if people who claim that are willfully ignoring the bad things, intentionally lie or are truthful but this is where the digital world is an advantage. I dont need to rely on words and opinions anymore. And watching SC related streams opens a can of worms that even the best streamers, entertainers living on their ability to sell you snake-oil are incapable of glossing over. Some days in SC-streams are bad, some days are acceptable but ALL DAYS in the verse only drive point the brutal reality of how raw and unfinished Star Citizen is, regardless how beautiful it looks.
And when you come to the conviction that this alluring and promising beauty, the fidelity and detail are the product of calculated and intentional spending....not a by-product of superior coding or synergy effects of the whole you might become angry at the deception in all of it. Star Citizens potential and beauty is bought by millions and millions of dollars.....and years of time. Its really all Star Citizen is. Star Citizen is NOT a video game in the making, not in the sense that we understand it. Where a team of people "urgently" tries to achieve something before time and money runs out.
The video game Star Citizen is NOT important in this project. Only the money is. And how long CiG can run it. An analysis of this comment would add another 50.000 words or so (keep on the lookout for my book
) but its the summary of my opinion and view on it after following it for so many years.TL: DR
Yeah yeah we know, SC is still bad.
Jesus Christ...
Yeah once CIG have finally managed to progress to instancing (plz see: practically every MMO ever), then the magical 100k player shard (plz see: no real-time-action MMO ever) will be easy.
The guy is either deluded or...
No, that’s all I’ve got.
Last edited:
Let me just close this out by showing you something.
The fist image is my old 4690K, a 4 core 4 thread CPU, notice the threads i highlighted in the OSD.
98%
98%
100%
100%
That CPU is tapped out, this is all it has to give, look at the frame rates, 33 FPS
The second image is a Ryzen 3600, this CPU has 6 cores and 12 threads, notice those threads are all loaded, between 50 and 80%, my Frame Rates now... 85 FPS.
Source: https://i.imgur.com/6sR6qPL.png
Source: https://i.imgur.com/B0KnK71.jpg
The fist image is my old 4690K, a 4 core 4 thread CPU, notice the threads i highlighted in the OSD.
98%
98%
100%
100%
That CPU is tapped out, this is all it has to give, look at the frame rates, 33 FPS
The second image is a Ryzen 3600, this CPU has 6 cores and 12 threads, notice those threads are all loaded, between 50 and 80%, my Frame Rates now... 85 FPS.
Source: https://i.imgur.com/6sR6qPL.png
Source: https://i.imgur.com/B0KnK71.jpg
Yup, aware of culling.
CIG themselves made a big hoo-ha about culling at one point.
Every community has its well I don't know how to say...lets say problematic members.
This strikes me as the elaborate attempt to stay on the good side of her in case she reads this ^^My wife gave up online gaming after persistently suffering this type of abuse. Mostly on Xbox live admittedly... which can be a particularly nasty little den of teenage hormones and sad, lonely little boys desperate for attention. She has a Star Citizen account too...as well as a Frontier one, has played both ED and SC but prefers RDR2 single player from the comfort of the living room on the Xbox.
As an attractive older woman who's had to suffer sometimes inappropriate behaviour from the more basic brand of our masculinity all her life, she's well versed in dealing with it with a sense of humour that's strangely tolerant and unique to women confident in their femininity.
As a strictly pillion passenger on my bikes all of our lives together, she's had to endure the majority sausage party mentality of being a biker's wife. She has a patch sewn on the chest of her leather cut which states quite plainly...' These are deaf, try higher up'... which just about says it all
Thats actually a practical thing. Hitboxes in games is what its about. Female characters have traditionally been smaller and thinner than male characters for some reason so reduces the hitbox size and area giving an advantage over male characters....when the hitbox is good anyway, when its rubbish it doesnt make a difference either way. But its also why you dont see many large fat male characters running around, too easy to hit for anybody who knows about hitboxes.
So shes actually more versatile and 'better' than her male husband
Problem is even if she can 'stand up' for herself many cant or wont so it just hides the issue rather than solving it, and the problem is embarrassingly for us...men. I just see people as people regardless of any other characteristic which is why its a shock when I encounter it any way shape or form.
Ship interior culling just fell off the roadmap again though
Those 85 high end frames in space are liable to drop if a couple of medium ships hove up
Isn't that part and parcel of being 'the husband' though
At the moment, she's critically ill and on life support in hospital over 200 miles away and I can't be there by her side...I miss her like life itself and for the last week I've been living life phoning or waiting for the phone to ring informing me of any improvement. Thankfully, she is improving although still on the critical list...small steps on the way to recovery. Apologies for once again delving into my private life on here...I put it down to mental and physical exhaustion during the last very tiring and stressful week and beg the forum's tolerance
Last edited:
Oh wow Mole - hope she pulls through. Thoughts with both of you
That's bad.Isn't that part and parcel of being 'the husband' though
At the moment, she's critically ill and on life support in hospital over 200 miles away and I can't be there by her side...I miss her like life itself and for the last week I've been living life phoning or waiting for the phone to ring informing me of any improvement. Thankfully, she is improving although still on the critical list...small steps on the way to recovery. Apologies for once again delving into my private life on here...I put it down to mental and physical exhaustion during the last very tiring and stressful week and beg the forum's tolerance
I truly hope for best.I just this minute had a phone call from the ICU that they've woken her up after being in an induced coma to help her recover after the 4 operations she's been through. Although only awake for less than an hour, she managed to speak on the phone and apologised faintly for being ill...and had I been feeding the cats and remembering to take my meds and had I changed the bed and washed the beddingThat's bad.
The strength of that woman has me in awe...and thank you all for your kind words. I can go to sleep now, first time in 4 days
Last edited:
Wow, I can't even think about how good that call must be felt to youI just this minute had a phone call from the ICU unit that they've woken her up after being in an induced coma to help her recover after the 4 operations she's been through. Although only awake for less than an hour, she managed to speak on the phone and apologised faintly for being ill...and had I been feeding the cats and remembring to take my meds and had I changed the bed and washed the bedding
The strength of that woman has me in awe...and thank you all for your kind words. I can go to sleep now, first time in 4 days