Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[LittleAnt]

It's a good question, but it also begs the question: Why not a Star Engine splash then?

They only talk about the "Star Engine" on dev talk and never with an "official" tag on it.
It's certainly a word for internal using and only because the engine can no more be called "CryEngine".
Some time ago, a dev also said that knowing CE (or the old LY) did not bring any advantage anymore to apply for a position.

My suspicion is that, as a result of law court attrition, and SC's perpetual limbo status in terms of release, nobody cares right now...

I strongly doubt that. I don't know one legal service that don't care about such things... even less from huge companies like Amazon. If the LY logo is gone, it's because the licence is not used anymore or gone. And if CIG don't use the LY license anymore, they use an engine that they are not legally required to display.

 

[Darkfyre99]

I never really understood the whole court thing being what it was. Some of Cryteks claims were outlandish. CIG could have just bought that license.
As for lumberyard - I never used it (after my time). I would have thought working with Unreal Engine may have worked better, but I think it was picked because the Crytek guys that CIG bought in would be familiar with it, as well as having the network hooks to AWS.

My general understanding of the court case is that

a) Chris Roberts took advantage of the fact that his good friend and business partner Ortwin Freyermuth also happened to be Crytek's legal counsel;​

b) Crytek was at the time in a particularly desperate place financially​

c) Roberts made some outlandish promises he had no intention of keeping, because he thought Crytek would go bankrupt soon, so he wouldn't need keep them, and could snap up CryEngine experts from the dying company​

The fact that that engine is particularly good at making a game look good was also part of it, but it was mostly the idea that he could get a game engine for free. The fact that he got Crytek to make his machinema video for free, which he would later pass off as an "almost ready for Alpha" build of his game during the Kickstarter, was just icing on the cake.

 

[Craith]

They only talk about the "Star Engine" on dev talk and never with an "official" tag on it.
It's certainly a word for internal using and only because the engine can no more be called "CryEngine".
Some time ago, a dev also said that knowing CE (or the old LY) did not bring any advantage anymore to apply for a position.


I strongly doubt that. I don't know one legal service that don't care about such things... even less from huge companies like Amazon. If the LY logo is gone, it's because the licence is not used anymore or gone. And if CIG don't use the LY license anymore, they use an engine that they are not legally required to display.

Or Crytek thinks it is not worth it to go to court over it, and postpone any actions until there is a released game (or two? none?). Don't forget, "It's Alpha!"

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The frak you on about re AWS. It's a computing platform, not Skynet.

Skynet is what you would get if CR tried to do something like AWS.

He'd probably proclaim it had never been done before, with such fidelity, as the robots take over the Earth.

Sandi of course would be revealed to be a later terminator model from the future designed to look almost (but not quite) human. Its preferred method of killing via strangulation. She was meant to kill Chris, having been sent by the last surviving humans before he could make it happen, but Chris waved his hands around so much it broke her programming, so she married him to be by his side while ensuring that he goes on to make Skynet happen and ensure the rise of the robots.

That's today's bit of fanfic for you all

 

[Winterdyne]

The frak you on about re AWS. It's a computing platform, not Skynet.

It provides some off the shelf services for stuff like DB, storage and general purpose computing that may or may not be a good fit for what you're trying to do. The rest have to be custom built. There are no "processes" other than the code you write to run on their servers. Yes, that means CIG have to do the bulk of the work. Shocking, I know.

Yes it is, and yes they do. But having an API that allows you to manage the VM instances that are active, is a major component in building said distributed architecture. From the looks of a very cursory glance through the API documentation I think I can see where the data transfer overhead is (using websockets which sit over TCP).

It does to me, from first look, seem like a pretty damn useful platform to work with.

I've just had my kid test positive (first test) for covid, so I may end up with more time over the next week to actually dig into it how/if at all lumberyard hooks into it beyond just the features splash page (which seems again like it provides some good low hanging prototype platform stuff - unsure as to how efficiently they sit with the AWS services).

So, from first appearance, to me as a game dev (of the passssst), lumberyard/aws looks plausibly useful for what CIG need to build.

 

[metatheurgist]

Skynet is what you would get if CR tried to do something like AWS.

He'd probably proclaim it had never been done before, with such fidelity, as the robots take over the Earth.

Sandi of course would be revealed to be a later terminator model from the future designed to look almost (but not quite) human. Its preferred method of killing via strangulation. She was meant to kill Chris, having been sent by the last surviving humans before he could make it happen, but Chris waved his hands around so much it broke her programming, so she married him to be by his side while ensuring that he goes on to make Skynet happen and ensure the rise of the robots.

That's today's bit of fanfic for you all

As rich and believable as any claim made by an Idris owner!

 

[VR Golgot]

They only talk about the "Star Engine" on dev talk and never with an "official" tag on it.

Chris used the term in press interviews for a while. (A point noted in the court case ). For sure it's primarily just an internal label, but when has CIG ever been shy of marketing such things

I'm sure if they thought they could get away with using 'Star Engine' branding they absolutely would.

Some time ago, a dev also said that knowing CE (or the old LY) did not bring any advantage anymore to apply for a position.

I'd be interested to see that quote. The idea that CIG have managed to divorce themselves so completely from the core CryEngine code (and toolsets), seems somewhat fanciful. Certainly current job listings still refer to it. IE:

Pluses:

• CryEngine/Lumberyard development experience

I strongly doubt that. I don't know one legal service that don't care about such things... even less from huge companies like Amazon. If the LY logo is gone, it's because the licence is not used anymore or gone. And if CIG don't use the LY license anymore, they use an engine that they are not legally required to display.

The LY license has likely been superseded by the new 'perpetual' Cryengine one, sure.

But as noted, the path to this point has been far from straight, and has involved a court case on exactly these issues. An atypical legal solution arising from the settlement is more than possible. (After all, Crytek were faced with an atypical situation in the form of SQ42 missing launch deadline number X at the time )

It's entirely possible CIG triumphed, and have got free rein to use Cryengine as they like for SC/SQ42 development. It's also entirely possible that Crytek said 'give us a cut of future earnings, and we'll drop all our claims re branding and launch formats', and that suited all parties to make the problem go away.

Without knowing the details of either the settlement or the new GLA we're none the wiser right now ¯\(ツ)/¯

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Decided to do a dive into Spectrum and here are the results

A glimpse into the future of SC (read the comments.... so like the ED forums at times)

God Marker Has to Go. - Star Citizen Spectrum

Howdy. A little about me. I'm a PvPer/Ganker/Griefer/Marauder/Pirate. I regularly get 200+ Homicides on my ledger before server desync sends me to the slammer. The vast majority of these...

robertsspaceindustries.com

I'm sure once CIG get around to implementing NPCs in a 9 to 1 ratio that are indistinguishable from players though all problems will be solved!

Oh, and someone brings up what I was just discussing with Intrepid the other day, with of course differing opinions.

The difficulty of balance between large ships and fighters - Star Citizen Spectrum

As the topic title states, this is an exploratory discussion into the difficulties of balancing single seat fighters and larger vessels. There are many different communities of SC players, some...

robertsspaceindustries.com

More salt about PvP!

- Star Citizen Spectrum

I am certainly not the only pve player minding his/her own business when a pvp pirate decides to wreck my cargo/ore either for ransome, or just for pvp action. But am I required to be civil to the...

robertsspaceindustries.com

I'm sure once CIG get around to implementing... you know the rest.

Love the title on this one

I love this game we ALL have/are ,created/creating together. - Star Citizen Spectrum

I love this game we ALL have/are, created/creating together. Thanks to all Citizens, Chris Roberts, and CIG .

robertsspaceindustries.com

The only things backers have done is shovel money at CIG.

Someone trying to remain optimistic

Where Are We Now? - Star Citizen Spectrum

This post was made around October 9th of last year I was looking into the progress that has been made since then. As the second quarter comes to a close we start a new and this was CIG current plan...

robertsspaceindustries.com

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

They only talk about the "Star Engine" on dev talk and never with an "official" tag on it.
It's certainly a word for internal using and only because the engine can no more be called "CryEngine".
Some time ago, a dev also said that knowing CE (or the old LY) did not bring any advantage anymore to apply for a position.


I strongly doubt that. I don't know one legal service that don't care about such things... even less from huge companies like Amazon. If the LY logo is gone, it's because the licence is not used anymore or gone. And if CIG don't use the LY license anymore, they use an engine that they are not legally required to display.

There you say it again. There is no law that requires such things. There is only contracts.

 

[Xink]

The VMs are just that, virtual machines you do not need to physically manage. Communication of server instances between those machines is 100% code that needs to be written by you. No, AWS's management APIs won't do it for you, nor should they. They are for managing the instances, not real time communication of game clients.

Typically clients use a low level binary network interface like Thrift or protobuf to build on. They are designed to minimise bandwidth and round trip use, as opposed to something like, say, XML, which does the opposite. Or you can build on XML because that's what CryEngine comes with and not have a working prototype 10 years in because reasons.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

...



I'd be interested to see that quote. The idea that CIG have managed to divorce themselves so completely from the core CryEngine code (and toolsets), seems somewhat fanciful. Certainly current job listings still refer to it. IE:


...

Artists don't need to code. They use other programs to create the jpgs

 

[Fishy]

Yes it is, and yes they do. But having an API that allows you to manage the VM instances that are active, is a major component in building said distributed architecture. From the looks of a very cursory glance through the API documentation I think I can see where the data transfer overhead is (using websockets which sit over TCP).

It does to me, from first look, seem like a pretty damn useful platform to work with.

If you are right, then the entire game development industry seems to be utterly clueless, because the list of games using Lumberyard is pretty compact to say the least. Even more so if you remove the game studios which have "Amazon" in their name.

 

[Winterdyne]

If you are right, then the entire game development industry seems to be utterly clueless, because the list of games using Lumberyard is pretty compact to say the least. Even more so if you remove the game studios which have "Amazon" in their name.

Having worked in the game industry, yep, a lot of it is clueless, and huge tracts of it is figuring it out as you go.

Not everyone using a platform will (or has to, depending on contract) disclose that they are. You might see it in the credits later. You might not. If it's freely usable it might be for a bit before being discarded.

Lumberyard is (effectively) cryengine with some inbuilt AWS support (and importantly continual updates in that regard). In particular here, I think they're using the Gamelift api*. That they have developers who originated the template of that engine in house makes it sensible to use without relearning a new architecture entirely.

@Xink: Why are you gibbering on about transport protocols?

*: I'm not saying this is useful to the server architecture they need, but it's certainly useful in getting multiplayer prototypes out quick.

I'm also not saying I'm right. I'm saying FROM FIRST LOOK it seems useful. It's no longer part of my job to spend days actually evaluating things like this, so I really don't want to. It's not that fun.

 

[LittleAnt]

I'd be interested to see that quote. The idea that CIG have managed to divorce themselves so completely from the core CryEngine code (and toolsets), seems somewhat fanciful.

Hard to find it again but there it is from Clive Johnson last year :

Spectrum - v7.11.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

I can't really give an estimate because my work only touches a small part of the entire code. Most other programmers will be the same. I can say the parts I work on are pretty much unrecognizable compared to the original.

In recent years the company has hired some programmers with previous CryEngine or Lumberyard experience and I believe it hasn't really helped them with the learning curve. That's possibly a better indication of how much has changed.

 

[VR Golgot]

Hard to find it again but there it is from Clive Johnson last year :

Spectrum - v7.11.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Cool, but he does take pains to say he's only talking about his corner of the codebase (Networking), not suggesting that Cryengine/LY experience is no longer relevant across the board. (And as we can see it's still cited on job applications. Level Designers, Technical Artists, AI programmers etc etc. Roles that suggest related tools and core code are still at play.)

Cryengine still lurks within

 

[Xink]

Sure, let's pretend a CryEngine with embedded AWS integration designed to lock you in to Amazon infrastructure is going to magically make everything better. Because take up of Lumberyard is sooo high..

 

[cigwatch]

Having worked in the game industry, yep, a lot of it is clueless, and huge tracts of it is figuring it out as you go.

Not everyone using a platform will (or has to, depending on contract) disclose that they are. You might see it in the credits later. You might not. If it's freely usable it might be for a bit before being discarded.

Lumberyard is (effectively) cryengine with some inbuilt AWS support (and importantly continual updates in that regard). In particular here, I think they're using the Gamelift api*. That they have developers who originated the template of that engine in house makes it sensible to use without relearning a new architecture entirely.

@Xink: Why are you gibbering on about transport protocols?

*: I'm not saying this is useful to the server architecture they need, but it's certainly useful in getting multiplayer prototypes out quick.

I'm also not saying I'm right. I'm saying FROM FIRST LOOK it seems useful. It's no longer part of my job to spend days actually evaluating things like this, so I really don't want to. It's not that fun.

I find it hard to understand what argument you are making. Do we know what it exactly means to have "inbuilt AWS support" in Lumberyard? Does it matter if they are not using it anyway? Do you think SC will not need additional server processes to "mesh" and always be able to reuse them? That somehow having an API for managing instances makes it much better for an MMO?

I am seriously lost.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

I find it hard to understand what argument you are making. Do we know what it exactly means to have "inbuilt AWS support" in Lumberyard? Does it matter if they are not using it anyway? Do you think SC will not need additional server processes to "mesh" and always be able to reuse them? That somehow having an API for managing instances makes it much better for an MMO?

I am seriously lost.

It's picking up speed and shows great progress. Progress manifests magically by the touch of the 3rd party.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Hard to find it again but there it is from Clive Johnson last year :

Spectrum - v7.11.0

RSI’s Spectrum is our integrated community and player interaction service, including chat, forums, game integration, and Player Organization facilities. Player Organizations (“Org”...

robertsspaceindustries.com

Cave Johnson codes by throwing it at a wall and see what sticks.

 

[LittleAnt]

Cave Johnson codes by throwing it at a wall and see what sticks.

If code the code sticks, it's "Al dente" and ready to merge !