Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

ED doesn't have instances in the way most other titles have instances i.e. there are no geographical areas that deal with players and npc entities when entered or exited by players, or that get replicated on servers when the player limit is reached. Rather every player has their own network bubble around them and when within the proximity of another player, those bubbles get merged together in an ad hoc manner and then seperated into two bubbles again when they move apart. As other players get within range, the merged bubbles increase in population to a "blob" if you like, until a limit is reached and the ad-hoc PtoP network becomes "unhealthy", after which new players will form new ad-hoc networks "blobs" invisible largely to the first (there is some interaction on the backend). The merged network (used to be called an island by Frontier - not sure if that's still the case) can be anywhere in the star system and there can be many in any one location, based on player population density. They are completely independant of location within a star system and also from objects, from stars, down to pebbles (and NPCs), which are "spawned" into the bubbles if that bubble happens to be in the vicinity. There are exceptions e.g. light source from the nearest star and gravity frame of reference for physics calculations from the nearest star, planet or moon.
As for physics objects - all objects in ED are "physics objects", as players are walking inside stations, which rotate about their own axis, which then orbit moons (using physics based calculations), which orbit planets, which orbit stars, which orbit each other in multi-star systems, all within one game space (system) which gets loaded for each of the 400 billion star systems . All in realtime (you can timelapse to show this if you have the patience) and all using standard physics based orbital mechanics, that match what we see in the cosmos in real life around us.
One of the few times physics is "broken" (although it still obeys maths based logical rules) is in supercruise, which is still within the coordinates of the star system, but is kept seperated, as the speeds at which players travel there are incompatible with those in "normal space" e.g. there is no point performing any calculations between players in supercruise and normal for say collsiion detection as by the time you check for it, the supercruise player is huge distances away from the "normal" space player. However, some checks are still carried out in case somebody has to drop to normal space from supercruise e.g. a fuel rat dropping from supercruise to a stricken player in normal using the wing beacon.
Star Citizen, from what I have seen, has a large 3D map centered around a light point source (star) hosted by a server and populated with static planets and moon objects around which players can move by themselves or drive essentially mini-maps (ships) around, until a limit of entities or players is reached, whereupon a new server is required.
The shortcomings of this approach is that player population forces CIG into provisioning more and more compute/server architecture for more copies of Stanton for each 50 player occurance. From what I can gather from "server meshing" is that CIG will need more and more compute to do the same thing by either subdividing the big map statically (rather than making more copies) and hope they have predicted where the player load will be, or if spun up dynamically hope they can manage the entity management challenges when that happens and it can be quick enough not to be noticed (not likely). You'll also still be limited to 50 players per server and you'll unlikely be able to see other players or entities being handled by other servers across the geographical/server boundaries (you may be able to do text/speech based comms in the same way hopefully a lot of folks use Discord outside of their chosen MP games).

Its no use. You can explain and explain but the faithful don't want to understand how instancing works in ED and how travel between locations are not loading screens.

SC is superior, it has to be superior in every way, and if it isn't, then the other game can't be what it is, and therefore it has to be something else, so SC is better.
 
Also wouldn't the replication layer replicate the Javelin to the other sub universe?

CIG do not have a solution at the moment to allow so many players to be in the same location or even anywhere across the "verse". Hence the per server cap. Their current plants for Tier 0 its alpha but better will come later, we promise server meshing is just maybe they will increase the "shard" limit once its in. So maybe, just maybe, they will be able to up the limit of players in a shard up to 100.

Of course, we will have to see if they can manage that.

But then, if they do that, they will have to be able to handle 100 people all going to the same location, on the same shard, which will mean the same server, and then we are back to the current situation, because server meshing (Tier 0) won't help with that.

Sooner or later, if CIG want many people in the same location, they are either going to have to admit they need instancing or run multiple servers per location.
 
Sooner or later, if CIG want many people in the same location, they are either going to have to admit they need instancing or run multiple servers per location.

That's the problem of "only" having 100 systems, if you increase the population of players enough sooner or later you will have multiple areas with 100+ players. SC is a game designed with choke points in mind, you have to enter and leave systems at a certain location, unlike ED where anywhere from anywhere is the general rule.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
ED's P2P has it's own fair share of disadvantages.

Well, all systems have their advantages and disadvantages. One of Elite´s system advantages is to allow for a virtually limitless number of players playing in the same system all of them enjoying full joint persistence and impacting the system background simulation at the same time. Unlike the SC 50 player limit playing in a non persistent and completely split, individual disjointed servers. Also, in ED the galaxy server will connect you literally on the fly with any other player you wing with in that system without the need to log out of a server to the main menu and then log in again to a new server (pray the queue does not last very long) if your friend happens to be in a different one.

The end result? Immersion and sense of belonging in ED, even with its issues, is orders of magnitude larger than in SC still after 10 years of development.
 
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Well, all systems have their advantages and disadvantages. One of Elite´s system advantages is to allow for a virtually limitless number of players playing in the same system all of them enjoying full joint persistence and impacting the system background simulation at the same time. Unlike the SC 50 player limit playing in a non persistent and completely split, individual disjointed servers. Also, in ED the galaxy server will connect you literally on the fly with any other player you wing with in that system without the need to log out of a server to the main menu and then log in again to a new server (pray the queue does not last very long) if your friend happens to be in a different one.

The end result? Immersion and sense of belonging in ED, even with its issues, is orders of magnitude larger than in SC still after 10 years of development.

Funny thing is, from what we know of their plans, players will remain in separate shards even with their best vision version of server mushing. This leads to some interesting questions about how this will work with other features, like base building and how bases can be attacked and even damaged/destroyed. Can people on different shards attack your base? Even if on the same shard, how can you protect your base if you are literally hours away from it (as some backers want it to be and claim CR's vision is for travel times between systems to be in the hours or even days!).

There are so many elements that just won't work together with their current plans and promises.

Its almost like someone just made a massive list of "wouldn't it be cool if?" and then set out to make that game without any clue how to make it all work together.

Oh, right....
 
Also, in ED the galaxy server will connect you literally on the fly with any other player you wing with in that system
That is if you actually meet another player in ED...
The end result? Immersion and sense of belonging in ED, even with its issues, is orders of magnitude larger than in SC still after 10 years of development.
This is vastly up to personal preference. I feel no sense of belonging in the ED galaxy. My ship is just a cockpit, the station im docked at has nothing unique to it apart from it's name maybe. The planets are not unique, and the only planets that are unique will be killed off with the switch to Odyssey. These factions, I can complete missions to change some flavourtext and maybe add a few signal sources to a system but beyond that I cannot constitute big change in the galaxy.

In SC however, I have Ships that actually feel like real spaceships, a much smaller selection of Planets, yes, but each of them has a plethora of background lore. I can designate one of the cities as my home location and each feels different. I might not have this vast galaxy as I do in Elite, or flavortext changing BGS. But it feels much more, well, real. For example Systems in ED have a population stat. What does this mean? Impacts the economy maybe, but do you ever get to see any of this population? Well you get to look at earth-like jpgs from space and maybe some city lights but thats about it. Even with SC's buggy NPCs they dress according to the location and that just adds a lot to it aswell.
 
Even with SC's buggy NPCs they dress according to the location and that just adds a lot to it aswell.

This is one of the many reasons the game will never be released. CR's insane demands for the fashion of NPCs on each moon to be unique, spending months getting the fashion right, sending it back for reworks until he is satisfied, and only then it goes to the modellers to actually make, which of course will get sent back again and again until its right.

And people think that once server meshing arrives CIG will be able to add more and more systems quickly.

How's that going to happen with Chris' demands for fidelity and uniqueness?

Also, regarding your uniqueness of planets. Again, how quick can they do planets if each is going to be unqiue? How many variations on "desert planet" and "ice planet" and "earthlike planet" can they do, and still maintain decent output? They have 110 systems to deliver, that backers paid for, that are in lore!!!! There is a starmap for them all.

Just another example of how CIG simply will never be able to deliver on what they have promised with their current demands for uniqueness and fidelity.

Don't worry about replying, i know what comes next. "I'd rather have just 5-10 unique systems than 110 with less fidelity" or something like that. Right? But that's ok, because its apparently CR's vision that it will take hours of travel moving from one system to other. Its not like you're going to be doing that often. And exploration... well, we can just forget about discovering strange new worlds i suppose.

And even those 5-10 systems will take many years to deliver.

Shame that wasn't the game that was sold. But there again, what CIG are delivering now isn't what was sold either.
 
CR's insane demands for the fashion of NPCs on each moon to be unique, spending months getting the fashion right, sending it back for reworks until he is satisfied, and only then it goes to the modellers to actually make, which of course will get sent back again and again until its right.

And people think that once server meshing arrives CIG will be able to add more and more systems quickly.

How's that going to happen with Chris' demands for fidelity and uniqueness?

Yeah it's just another thing that really fights against the 'scaling up to 100 solar systems' aspect. Even if the majority of those systems were to be 'deep space' style, with no existing culture, he's still seemingly set on obsessively styling living cultures on a moon-by-moon basis for the populated ones. Everything from architecure, to transport systems, to the local brand flavour of underwear. It's pretty deranged.

Always worth a repost :) (Sound on)

Source: https://i.imgur.com/D9Lz3gF.mp4
 
This is one of the many reasons the game will never be released. CR's insane demands for the fashion of NPCs on each moon to be unique, spending months getting the fashion right, sending it back for reworks until he is satisfied, and only then it goes to the modellers to actually make, which of course will get sent back again and again until its right.
And it's worth it. Hurston, ArcCorp, and MicroTech all released within a year. Going off the wiki there's about 29 landing zones left to create.
And people think that once server meshing arrives CIG will be able to add more and more systems quickly.
They're already working on Pyro and Nyx simultaneously.
How's that going to happen with Chris' demands for fidelity and uniqueness?
By going after concept art that was made years ago? Source: https://imgur.com/gallery/2VTeG
I'd recommend looking through this. It's very cool.
Also, regarding your uniqueness of planets. Again, how quick can they do planets if each is going to be unqiue? How many variations on "desert planet" and "ice planet" and "earthlike planet" can they do, and still maintain decent output? They have 110 systems to deliver, that backers paid for, that are in lore!!!! There is a starmap for them all.
Not every single planet is going to have the in depth uniqueness that Stanton has. There's lots of systems with just a couple of moons. You can make these interesting aswell, the tools devs have with planet tech V4 really are powerful.
Just another example of how CIG simply will never be able to deliver on what they have promised with their current demands for uniqueness and fidelity.

Don't worry about replying, i know what comes next. "I'd rather have just 5-10 unique systems than 110 with less fidelity" or something like that. Right? But that's ok, because its apparently CR's vision that it will take hours of travel moving from one system to other. Its not like you're going to be doing that often. And exploration... well, we can just forget about discovering strange new worlds i suppose.
Well yeah you've just answered it yourself. Also they're gonna most likely add Systems after "launch". But I doubt the 110 Systems will ever come to fruition.
And even those 5-10 systems will take many years to deliver.
Most likely.
Shame that wasn't the game that was sold. But there again, what CIG are delivering now isn't what was sold either.
This isn't a game, this is an Alpha.
 
Hurston, ArcCorp, and MicroTech all released within a year.

Nearly, but not quite.

Hurston: November 2018 - 3.3.5
ArcCorp: April 2019 - 3.5.0
MicroTech: December 2019 - 3.8.0

They'll finish that first solar system any year now though right?

Going off the wiki there's about 29 landing zones left to create.

Ok so cool, if we're generous and approximate 3 landing zones plus planets per year, that will take approximately 10 more years.

Sound good?

(And that's assuming they arrive complete, which they often don't. Many of the above are art complete for cites and surfaces, but still await their mission givers, industries, fauna etc. Y'know, actual gameplay and stuff ;))

They're already working on Pyro and Nyx simultaneously.

Oh wow, 2015's Nyx. Are you telling me 2017's jump gates are coming then? So excite!

:unsure:
 
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Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
That is if you actually meet another player in ED...

Actual concurrent player numbers in ED seem to be significantly higher than in SC according to the latest available info on this from Chris Roberts himself so 🤷‍♂️ .

If you are referring to the vastness of actual 1:1 scale, then many an ED player would actually say that is precisely one of the great things of the game. Also, certain systems in Elite are much more frequented than others (engineering ones, CG ones, Powerplay key systems etc), and some of those can actually be quite busy.

This is vastly up to personal preference.

Indeed. Much like about the vast majority of the comments you post here as well I am afraid. Personal preferences aside, one the factual differences about SC and pretty much any other decent game out there, not just Elite, is that SC continues to be extremely buggy, glitchy, with broken physics that kill you for no good reason just by looking at them funny after 10+ years of development and 400+ millions paid.
 
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Nearly, but not quite.

Hurston: November 2018 - 3.3.5
ArcCorp: April 2019 - 3.5.0
MicroTech: December 2019 - 3.8.0

They'll finish that first solar system any year now though right?
Pretty much finished purely System location wise.
Ok so cool, if we're generous and approximate 3 landing zones plus planets per year, that will take approximately 10 more years.

Sound good?
That's at the current pace. We'll have to see if their extra employees speed things up
Oh wow, 2015's Nyx. Are you telling me 2017's jump gates are coming then? So excite!
Nyx Landing Zone was the only thing about the System that was finished. It was in Stanton for the longest time, testbed for landing zones.
Also that Roadmap marked Jumped Points coming in 4.0. The 4.0 panel isn't wrong.
 
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If you are referring to the vastness of actual 1:1 scale, then many an ED player would actually say that is precisely one of the great things of the game.
Indeed, it is one of if not the great thing about ED.
Also, certain systems in Elite are much more frequented than others (engineering ones, CG ones, Powerplay key systems etc), and some of those can actually be quite busy.
Went to that farseer engineering system in open once, seemed pretty empty until I dropped out at the base and got ganked. So yes they can be "quite busy"
Personal preferences aside, one the factual differences about SC and pretty much any other decent game out there, not just Elite, is that SC continues to be extremely buggy, glitchy, with broken physics that kill you for no good reason just by looking at them funny after 10+ years of development and 400+ millions paid.
Again, Star Citizen is not a game. It is an Alpha.
 
That's at the current pace. We'll have to see if their extra employees speed things up

Sure. It's still early days, they've got to build the teams after all.

But once they get the new exciting networking tech in by the end of the year then the pipelines are just gonna start whizzing along.

I cannot possibly imagine a scenario whereby it plays out any other way ;)

Nyx Landing Zone was the only thing about the System that was finished. It was in Stanton for the longest time, testbed for landing zones.

Yes.

That doesn't change the fact that what they said they were going to add, in 2015, was the whole new solar system.

Are you spotting a pattern anywhere?
 
That is if you actually meet another player in ED...
Happens all the time. Even in the private group of Australia. Here's a fellow I encountered entirely on accident.
uhhh.jpg
 
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