Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

Intrepid3D

Intrepid3D
MQC said:
I stand by what I said, because it is the reality, and your nonsense will not change that reality: in the current SC Alpha, after 11 years, there are hardly any missions, no game mechanics, no gameplay loops, no real sense of progression.

If you're trying to convince people otherwise, you're either a liar, or you actually believe what you're saying (which is even worse)... but with me, someone who's been following SC since the Kickstarter, I assure you that you will not succeed.

If you try to convince people that, after 11 years, testing patches every 3 months where trifles like clouds or rivers are priorizated, and interesting things like PES or an inventory system are in T0 after years of development, with endless bugs, and no progression due to lack of continuity in the gameplay and all the wipes, is comparable to playing a full AAA game from start to finish... either you're lying, or your fanaticism is playing tricks on you.

And the person in those gameplay videos says just that, playing ED has shown him the abysmal differences between a really finished game and what SC is in these 11 years.
Click to expand...
These are tired old arguments and at least in the way you're trying to convey not true, and you're comparing it to ED?

Cargo hauling / trading:
You're pressing buttons on a screen to start and pressing more buttons on screens at the other end to complete it, that's it and its true for both, at least in SC you get to squeeze you're way around the side of your cargo in the cargo bay, just that already makes it more involved.

Run of the mill go kill missions:
Again both have them, with both the more you do the more difficult they become as you rank up your rep, i do find the way you have to search for wanted NPC's in ED more involved, however if there is a bounty on a real player that changes the dynamics entirely, especially if you're the one being hunted, you can even hide from those hunting you by shutting down com arrays in the sector you're doing your illegal stuff in, however doing that will pint point you to the array for the time that you're there and it takes a little while to turn it off, that's quite dynamic, it gives you a real sense of trepidation.
All that is entirely missing from ED, its not really even a MP game.

Mining game loops:
Ground and space, both are quite involved, mini games with in a game, i don't think one mechanic is better than the other SC vs ED but personally i prefer SC's mechanics, i also like that fact that you have to take your ores to a space station where you can chose to sell it on the spot or have it refined in a verity of different ways for higher profit margins.

Salvaging:
ED doesn't have this at all, you strip the hull of a wrecked ship and sell the collected materials, three ways you can do this, one is just fly around and sometimes come across a ship wreck, player ship wrecks persist and there is always known places you can find those, or buy a contract for the location of a ship wreck, strip the hull for profit and if you're lucky its also crying valuable cargo, i like doing this as a relaxing pass time.

And more.... but i want to get on to...

Dynamic events:
In 40 years of gaming i have rarely had so much fun and been so immersed as i have been playing the Xeno Threat event.
A large group of bad people try to invade Stanton, there is a UEE cap ship docked at a station, it needs supplies, supply ships are taken out by Xeno and you have to go fight them off first in space and then on board the cargo ships they wrecked, once you're done that you have to transfer its cargo from the wrecked ship to yours, by hand on foot and EVA and deliver it to the cap ship, quite often through a 650KM gauntlet where NPC and sometime real pirates are trying to stop you, one the cap ship is resupplied it comes out to play, you fight the Xeno along side it in a huge space battle.
Not only is it a huge amount of fun its also successfully designed where the whole server come together and work together to achieve the goals, perfect strangers instinctively team up just because you're near by because you have to work together to get it done.

Another one is Jump Town, a felicity is producing extremely valuable illegal product and your job is to either take contracts to stop people from getting that product or be the one trying to get it, it creates the conditions for a literal war. Its a lot of fun. Video example of that below.

Again there is more of that ^^^ and more to come.

Just watch this, yes it done and edited in a story fashion but the gameplay in it as real.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qGEaPRHCQ
 
Last edited:

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Intrepid3D said:
These are tired old arguments and at least in the way you're trying to convey not true, and you're comparing it to ED?

Cargo hauling / trading:
You're pressing buttons on a screen to start and pressing more buttons on screens at the other end to complete it, that's it and its true for both, at least in SC you get to squeeze you're way around the side of your cargo in the cargo bay, just that already makes it more involved.

Run of the mill go kill missions:
Again both have them, with both the more you do the more difficult they become as you rank up your rep, i do find the way you have to search for wanted NPC's in ED more involved, however if there is a bounty on a real player that changes the dynamics entirely, especially if you're the one being hunted, you can even hide from those hunting you by shutting down com arrays in the sector you're doing your illegal stuff in, however doing that will pint point you to the array for the time that you're there and it takes a little while to turn it off, that's quite dynamic, it gives you a real sense of trepidation.
All that is entirely missing from ED, its not really even a MP game.

Mining game loops:
Ground and space, both are quite involved, mini games with in a game, i don't think one mechanic is better than the other SC vs ED but personally i prefer SC's mechanics, i also like that fact that you have to take your ores to a space station where you can chose to sell it on the spot or have it refined in a verity of different ways for higher profit margins.

Salvaging:
ED doesn't have this at all, you strip the hull of a wrecked ship and sell the collected materials, three ways you can do this, one is just fly around and sometimes come across a ship wreck, player ship wrecks persist and there is always known places you can find those, or buy a contract for the location of a ship wreck, strip the hull for profit and if you're lucky its also crying valuable cargo, i like doing this as a relaxing pass time.

And more.... but i want to get on to...

Dynamic events:
In 40 years of gaming i have rarely had so much fun and been so immersed as i have been playing the Xeno Threat event.
A large group of bad people try to invade Stanton, there is a UEE cap ship docked at a station, it needs supplies, supply ships are taken out by Xeno and you have to go fight them off first in space and then on board the cargo ships they wrecked, once you're done that you have to transfer its cargo from the wrecked ship to yours, by hand on foot and EVA and deliver it to the cap ship, quite often through a 650KM gauntlet where NPC and sometime real pirates are trying to stop you, one the cap ship is resupplied it comes out to play, you fight the Xeno along side it in a huge space battle.
Not only is it a huge amount of fun its also successfully designed where the whole server come together and work together to achieve the goals, perfect strangers instinctively team up just because you're near by because you have to work together to get it done.

Another one is Jump Town, a felicity is producing extremely valuable illegal product and your job is to either take contracts to stop people from getting that product or be the one trying to get it, it creates the conditions for a literal war. Its a lot of fun. Video example of that below.

Again there is more of that ^^^ and more to come.

Just watch this, yes it done and edited in a story fashion but the gameplay in it as real.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qGEaPRHCQ
Click to expand...

Good reply, although calling them dynamic events when they are manually inserted is badly abusing the word and a far cry from what CIG said dynamic events would be.

ED does have dynamic events that are triggered by system states.
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Intrepid3D said:
These are tired old arguments and at least in the way you're trying to convey not true, and you're comparing it to ED?

Cargo hauling / trading:
You're pressing buttons on a screen to start and pressing more buttons on screens at the other end to complete it, that's it and its true for both, at least in SC you get to squeeze you're way around the side of your cargo in the cargo bay, just that already makes it more involved.

Run of the mill go kill missions:
Again both have them, with both the more you do the more difficult they become as you rank up your rep, i do find the way you have to search for wanted NPC's in ED more involved, however if there is a bounty on a real player that changes the dynamics entirely, especially if you're the one being hunted, you can even hide from those hunting you by shutting down com arrays in the sector you're doing your illegal stuff in, however doing that will pint point you to the array for the time that you're there and it takes a little while to turn it off, that's quite dynamic, it gives you a real sense of trepidation.
All that is entirely missing from ED, its not really even a MP game.

Mining game loops:
Ground and space, both are quite involved, mini games with in a game, i don't think one mechanic is better than the other SC vs ED but personally i prefer SC's mechanics, i also like that fact that you have to take your ores to a space station where you can chose to sell it on the spot or have it refined in a verity of different ways for higher profit margins.

Salvaging:
ED doesn't have this at all, you strip the hull of a wrecked ship and sell the collected materials, three ways you can do this, one is just fly around and sometimes come across a ship wreck, player ship wrecks persist and there is always known places you can find those, or buy a contract for the location of a ship wreck, strip the hull for profit and if you're lucky its also crying valuable cargo, i like doing this as a relaxing pass time.

And more.... but i want to get on to...

Dynamic events:
In 40 years of gaming i have rarely had so much fun and been so immersed as i have been playing the Xeno Threat event.
A large group of bad people try to invade Stanton, there is a UEE cap ship docked at a station, it needs supplies, supply ships are taken out by Xeno and you have to go fight them off first in space and then on board the cargo ships they wrecked, once you're done that you have to transfer its cargo from the wrecked ship to yours, by hand on foot and EVA and deliver it to the cap ship, quite often through a 650KM gauntlet where NPC and sometime real pirates are trying to stop you, one the cap ship is resupplied it comes out to play, you fight the Xeno along side it in a huge space battle.
Not only is it a huge amount of fun its also successfully designed where the whole server come together and work together to achieve the goals, perfect strangers instinctively team up just because you're near by because you have to work together to get it done.

Another one is Jump Town, a felicity is producing extremely valuable illegal product and your job is to either take contracts to stop people from getting that product or be the one trying to get it, it creates the conditions for a literal war. Its a lot of fun. Video example of that below.

Again there is more of that ^^^ and more to come.

Just watch this, yes it done and edited in a story fashion but the gameplay in it as real.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qGEaPRHCQ
Click to expand...

Yep, all fair play.

They're right on the progression though ;)
 

VR Golgot

VR Golgot
Anyone ready for bigger boxes? :)


(Given that this ship blew up because somebody threw a hand flare...)


(And that the ramp + physics = boom thing ain't ever going away. That's how ramps work. IE they don't really ;). As a teleporting 'animation' they don't sync with the physics system, and will always misinterpret collisions ¯\(ツ)/¯ )
 
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Navigare Necesse Est

Navigare Necesse Est
You know, it's a decade now but SC still has just events that you count on one hand and needs manually inserted, when Bethesda is on its 8th? iteration of dynamically generated quests and open worlds. NMS did a pretty good job populating their world with activities. How much longer does SC need? There is one dude releasing a space game in 2023 - let's face it: CIG can't pull it off. They don't have the talent, they don't have the tech, they don't have a design.

All they have is a lie that they are gonna pull it off.
 

StuartGT

StuartGT
The Dynamic Events aren't triggered dynamically by gameplay, they're triggered dynamically by the start of a $hip $ale

source.gif
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
Intrepid3D said:
These are tired old arguments and at least in the way you're trying to convey not true, and you're comparing it to ED?

Cargo hauling / trading:
You're pressing buttons on a screen to start and pressing more buttons on screens at the other end to complete it, that's it and its true for both, at least in SC you get to squeeze you're way around the side of your cargo in the cargo bay, just that already makes it more involved.

Run of the mill go kill missions:
Again both have them, with both the more you do the more difficult they become as you rank up your rep, i do find the way you have to search for wanted NPC's in ED more involved, however if there is a bounty on a real player that changes the dynamics entirely, especially if you're the one being hunted, you can even hide from those hunting you by shutting down com arrays in the sector you're doing your illegal stuff in, however doing that will pint point you to the array for the time that you're there and it takes a little while to turn it off, that's quite dynamic, it gives you a real sense of trepidation.
All that is entirely missing from ED, its not really even a MP game.

Mining game loops:
Ground and space, both are quite involved, mini games with in a game, i don't think one mechanic is better than the other SC vs ED but personally i prefer SC's mechanics, i also like that fact that you have to take your ores to a space station where you can chose to sell it on the spot or have it refined in a verity of different ways for higher profit margins.

Salvaging:
ED doesn't have this at all, you strip the hull of a wrecked ship and sell the collected materials, three ways you can do this, one is just fly around and sometimes come across a ship wreck, player ship wrecks persist and there is always known places you can find those, or buy a contract for the location of a ship wreck, strip the hull for profit and if you're lucky its also crying valuable cargo, i like doing this as a relaxing pass time.

And more.... but i want to get on to...

Dynamic events:
In 40 years of gaming i have rarely had so much fun and been so immersed as i have been playing the Xeno Threat event.
A large group of bad people try to invade Stanton, there is a UEE cap ship docked at a station, it needs supplies, supply ships are taken out by Xeno and you have to go fight them off first in space and then on board the cargo ships they wrecked, once you're done that you have to transfer its cargo from the wrecked ship to yours, by hand on foot and EVA and deliver it to the cap ship, quite often through a 650KM gauntlet where NPC and sometime real pirates are trying to stop you, one the cap ship is resupplied it comes out to play, you fight the Xeno along side it in a huge space battle.
Not only is it a huge amount of fun its also successfully designed where the whole server come together and work together to achieve the goals, perfect strangers instinctively team up just because you're near by because you have to work together to get it done.

Another one is Jump Town, a felicity is producing extremely valuable illegal product and your job is to either take contracts to stop people from getting that product or be the one trying to get it, it creates the conditions for a literal war. Its a lot of fun. Video example of that below.

Again there is more of that ^^^ and more to come.

Just watch this, yes it done and edited in a story fashion but the gameplay in it as real.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53qGEaPRHCQ
Click to expand...
In that post you respond to it is not MQC the one comparing SC to Elite. MQC simply refers to the SC refugee who is now playing Elite linked above that is the one doing it all on its own.

Source: https://youtu.be/bgrwqnb8LIM


That refugee not only describes SC in a very poor light in general compared to Elite but also shows it in his vids. In his own words:

...ED is so playable, yes playable, how my gaming standards have been lowered to this level by SC. I should have found this game earlier. Was indeed a bit blinded by all the promises CIG throws at us in SC for such a long time.
Click to expand...

And he is quite right, SC playability is very limited due to instability, a broken engine, lack of meaningful progression, poor design and tons of promised content missing.

As for your direct comparisons with Elite, this thread would be much better served by SC standing on its own merits but it seems those dont really exist and all is left is coming back to comparisons… Either way your comparison is still fairly personal and questionable, here my personal take on the aspects you mentioned:

Trading in Elite is much more developed and has an actual sense of progression from beginnings in small routes and rare goods to bulk trading in end game ships, the different loadout considerations (thanks to full modularity that does not exist in SC) related to trading gameplay that do not exist at all in SC either such as potential real time interdictions (different configurations for PvE or PvP), trading impact on the background simulator, BGS states and related price swings, or pvp trade offs in loadout decisions (shields no shields, turrets, mines, shall I sacrifice cargo space etc etc). Trade in Elite is actually deeply integrated in most other elements of the game and as such progression is very real. Unlike SC.

As for mining, I suspect yours is also a personal view but I think mining in Elite, with all its different options and trade offs including ships and gear progression is probably among best in class out there. Certainly hard to beat this imo:

Source: https://youtu.be/gYke_MO-gE4?t=262


without mentioning the emergent gameplay that Elite can easily generate in general and mining in particular, taking it to a whole new level:

www.polygon.com

Elite Dangerous players say they’re being scammed, trapped in space, and forced to work

Waylaid and forced into labor 800 light-years from home
www.polygon.com www.polygon.com

I mean we may even argue that the limits of emergent gameplay of Elite may have actually gone a bit too far.

Salvaging in SC does not really seem to impress. At least not yet. This particular opinion seems quite interesting: “[Salvaging is like] coloring for adults, with massively nerfed prices for ship components and 95% of the ships unable to have internal components removed anyway.”

In Elite salvaging is just not focused on ship or weapon components but in engineering components instead, be it in space wrecks via manually salvaging items in your cargo bay or by use of drones. On land you can also salvage engineering components in either mission or poi vehicles. Salvaging has an actual significant gameplay impact.

As for “dynamic” events in SC. They are pretty much fully scripted and based around ship sales which is the actual opposite of dynamic (see miners kidnapping above for an example of an actual very much non scripted and dynamic event, including player group organized rescue efforts).

And the main problem is not just that SC’s are prone to all kinds of performance, stability and brokenness issues, but they are fundamentally poor in design as well , here lvlcap describing some of the issues with siege of orison:

Source: https://youtu.be/4pnf9SLRM2w


“… honest i'm also a little bit concerned about the abundance of overly positive feedback regarding this new mission saying things like siege of orison is amazing and i've had some of my best star citizen experiences while playing siege of orson, because while i am very happy that people are having fun playing the fps side of star citizen, as somebody that comes from an fps heavy background of gaming i found the new mission to be extremely lacking and i fear it'll be seen that way by many people coming into star citizen from just other genres…”

“… despite its artistic beauty and set design it is riddled with design flaws that remove the challenge and need for teamwork. I ve played well-designed four-player co-op games that were so challenging that when trying to complete them with three players it was basically impossible, but in star citizen with the siege of orson it merely gives the illusion that a large group of players are needed to fight the overwhelming numbers of nine tails, but the reality is that a single player with nothing special medium armor can beat the whole thing solo and that's without cheesing your way through it that's a real problem…”

”… let's talk about the first and most glaring issue that simply has to be fixed for an fps mission to be fun or challenging regardless of its scale or layout and that is the ai, the nine-tailed soldiers in this event are incredibly slow to react they never seem to engage in long-range combat. Theydon't have any sort of surprising weapons or tactics and they rarely seem to effectively push or overwhelm in numbers there was some feedback from early ptu about the ai being too challenging or having too many of them but it's simply not something i experienced during any of my play sessions as far as i can tell they're pretty much the same as the bunker ai which are just not impressive in their own right…”

etc etc etc
 
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Intrepid3D

Intrepid3D
Viajero said:
In that post you respond to it is not MQC the one comparing SC to Elite. MQC simply refers to the SC refugee who is now playing Elite linked above that is the one doing it all on its own.

Source: https://youtu.be/bgrwqnb8LIM


That refugee not only describes SC in a very poor light in general compared to Elite but also shows it in his vids. In his own words:



And he is quite right, SC playability is very limited due to instability, a broken engine, lack of meaningful progression, poor design and tons of promised content missing.

As for your direct comparisons with Elite, this thread would be much better served by SC standing on its own merits but it seems those dont really exist and all is left is coming back to comparisons… Either way your comparison is still fairly personal and questionable, here my personal take on the aspects you mentioned:

Trading in Elite is much more developed and has an actual sense of progression from beginnings in small routes and rare goods to bulk trading in end game ships, the different loadout considerations related to trading gameplay that do not exist at all in SC such as potential real time interdictions (different configurations for PvE or PvP), trading impact on the background simulator, states and related price swings, or pvp trade offs in loadout decisions (shields no shields, turrets, mines, shall I sacrifice cargo space etc etc). Trade in Elite is actually deeply integrated in most other elements of the game and as such progression is very real. Unlike SC.

As for mining, I suspect yours is also a personal view but I think mining in Elite, with all its different options and trade offs including ships and gear progression is probably among best in class out there. Certainly hard to beat this imo:

Source: https://youtu.be/gYke_MO-gE4?t=262


without mentioning the emergent gameplay that Elite can easily generate in general and mining in particular, taking it to a whole new level:

www.polygon.com

Elite Dangerous players say they’re being scammed, trapped in space, and forced to work

Waylaid and forced into labor 800 light-years from home
www.polygon.com www.polygon.com

I mean we may even argue that the limits of emergent gameplay of Elite may have actually gone a bit too far.

Salvaging in SC does not really seem to impress. At least not yet. This particular opinion seems quite interesting: “[Salvaging is like] coloring for adults, with massively nerfed prices for ship components and 95% of the ships unable to have internal components removed anyway.”

In Elite salvaging is just not focused on ship or weapon components but in engineering components instead, be it in space wrecks via manually salvaging items in your cargo bay or by use of drones. On land you can also salvage engineering components in either mission or poi vehicles. Salvaging has an actual significant gameplay impact.

As for “dynamic” events in SC. They are pretty much fully scripted and based around ship sales which is the actual opposite of dynamic (see miners kidnapping above for an example of an actual very much non scripted and dynamic event, including player group organized rescue efforts).

And the main problem is not just that SC’s are prone to all kinds of performance, stability and brokenness issues, but they are fundamentally poor in design as well , here lvlcap describing some of the issues with siege of orison:

Source: https://youtu.be/4pnf9SLRM2w


“… honest i'm also a little bit concerned about the abundance of overly positive feedback regarding this new mission saying things like siege of orison is amazing and i've had some of my best star citizen experiences while playing siege of orson, because while i am very happy that people are having fun playing the fps side of star citizen, as somebody that comes from an fps heavy background of gaming i found the new mission to be extremely lacking and i fear it'll be seen that way by many people coming into star citizen from just other genres…”

“… despite its artistic beauty and set design it is riddled with design flaws that remove the challenge and need for teamwork. I ve played well-designed four-player co-op games that were so challenging that when trying to complete them with three players it was basically impossible, but in star citizen with the siege of orson it merely gives the illusion that a large group of players are needed to fight the overwhelming numbers of nine tails, but the reality is that a single player with nothing special medium armor can beat the whole thing solo and that's without cheesing your way through it that's a real problem…”

”… let's talk about the first and most glaring issue that simply has to be fixed for an fps mission to be fun or challenging regardless of its scale or layout and that is the ai, the nine-tailed soldiers in this event are incredibly slow to react they never seem to engage in long-range combat. Theydon't have any sort of surprising weapons or tactics and they rarely seem to effectively push or overwhelm in numbers there was some feedback from early ptu about the ai being too challenging or having too many of them but it's simply not something i experienced during any of my play sessions as far as i can tell they're pretty much the same as the bunker ai which are just not impressive in their own right…”

etc etc etc
Click to expand...

I appreciate your perspective on this, that is what counts here, but don't see your point in any of the Youtube opinions? We all know what people say about people with opinions. But at least as i say you have your own perspective, on ED, which i do appreciate. Its just a shame you need other peoples opinions to make yours on SC.

As for Levelcap,

Other than not having to state the well known about the current state of AI in SC, i'm not a huge fan of or advocate for Siege of Orison.
Having said that i have some opinions on people who start their arguments by explaining they are an expert in some way on the subject, to add to that follow up by describing their dismay at the people who don't share their opinions, presumably as self proclaimed experts.
 

Viajero

Volunteer Moderator
Viajero
Intrepid3D said:
I appreciate your perspective on this, that is what counts here, but don't see your point in any of the Youtube opinions?
Click to expand...
Well, that was a clarification that you were wrong on assigning your response to an MQC claim as it was actually a SC refugee who was professing it. If you want to dismiss the value of statements made by one of SC refugees now playing ED that is fine of course, but I suspect then that you don’t care either about ED refugees statements. Sadly I didn’t see your response to LittleAnt or others when they posted them, would have been great to see you as actively dismissing those as for these.
 
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