Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12


Sarsa gave a good summary:

Sarsapariller posted:
It's time for another episode of
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INSIDE STAR CITIZEN
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The show that most definitely will not take you anywhere near the inside of Star Citizen!

  • Disco is doing a skit about the offices being empty, skip skip skip
  • Holy poo poo it goes on for like 4 minutes
  • There's some new HUD style, they've worked very hard on it, nobody cares, this is like the 4th redesign of the UI
  • "We'll be handing all of this over to the vehicle feature team so they can actually start to implement it." I sometimes feel really bad for the vehicle team
  • Oh jesus Lando is back with more halloween skit, shut the gently caress up
  • Now some dev is rambling about resource distribution within a ship. This is the kind of thing that would have been neat 7 years ago. Now, my only thought is "You're going to have to rework every loving ship to do any of this. This will never make it into the game."
  • Summary of the resource system: When you have low resources or a damaged distribution system things will turn off. Elite managed to do this without having to give 8 years of powerpoint presentations.
  • Oops that was it, Lando does more lovely vamping

Big sale next month!

Must admit, I gave it a quick browse. Saw it was 90% Lando, stopped watching.
 
Lethality getting all fanboy over the ship resource management bit


Someone reminds him about reality

Well, not to split hairs, but there still isn't anything like it out there, b/c CIG haven't actually implemented it yet. Right now, it's just a fun GUI to illustrate their plans.

As Dan said, "This is going to take quite some time to implement. . . a lot of systems and a lot of stuff will have to get refactored."

To me, that means we are still YEARS away from seeing anything like this in SC. Is it good that they're finally thinking about this? Yes, absolutely.

However, these delays are what you get when you build 100+ ships first and design the game mechanics second. Not the optimal way to build a game; CIG should've been working on this stuff MUCH earlier.

When CIG talks about stuff like this, the fans get all excited, without stopping to think about how much time all this stuff will take.

Then of course there is another erm.. perspecitve.

Glad to see the Engineer won't ever be bored and the best ones will be sought after.

The other ships positions should be interesting I'm really looking forward to them now.

Sorry, but the engineer is going to be spending so much time doing necessary stuff? What happens then if you can't get an engineer? Ship is unflyable? What happens if your engineer has to leave for the night when you are in the middle on nowhere? Then your ship gets attacked.... and, you are boned?

Best ICS?


90% Lando being a derp is the best ICS?

Emergent gameplay?


They're working on it.

Eventually there will be some sort of detection of unauthorized personnel on your ship, and varying means to deal with that.

Until then, welcome to alpha!

They are working on it... like everything else.

Funny...


Favourite comment.

Ooooor, you could have written a nice "Thank you" post to Mr. Roberts instead...

Referencing the recent Thank you Mr. Robert simping letter.

One day you will look back as we're playing the released game, "yeah I played Alpha, those were the days". Enjoy these experiences because one day there will be little to no bugs to have fun with.

Response..

Haha, joke of the day. Thx :)))

And... fidelity

 
Emergent gameplay?


They are working on it... like everything else.

The get someone to kill you so they get a crime stat so you can send them to prison has been in as long as prisons have been in. Not that new. It was a welcome game play loop.
 
Lethality getting all fanboy over the ship resource management bit


Someone reminds him about reality



When CIG talks about stuff like this, the fans get all excited, without stopping to think about how much time all this stuff will take.

Then of course there is another erm.. perspecitve.



Sorry, but the engineer is going to be spending so much time doing necessary stuff? What happens then if you can't get an engineer? Ship is unflyable? What happens if your engineer has to leave for the night when you are in the middle on nowhere? Then your ship gets attacked.... and, you are boned?

I think you are asking the wrong question here. The better question is "What happens when you can't get a pilot".

This makes it look like engineers will have interesting things to do.

Any time I'm playing with a bigger a group and a large ship is involved it is a game of "not it" in terms of who is going to pilot. Piloting the large ships is not particularly fun. They are large barges that do not fly well.

I would rather man a turret on hammerhead vs flying the lumbering oaf 100 times over.

Being the pilot is like being the driver of a big party bus. Everyone is having fun in the back and you are stuck driving a bus.
 
I think you are asking the wrong question here. The better question is "What happens when you can't get a pilot".

This makes it look like engineers will have interesting things to do.

Any time I'm playing with a bigger a group and a large ship is involved it is a game of "not it" in terms of who is going to pilot. Piloting the large ships is not particularly fun. They are large barges that do not fly well.

I would rather man a turret on hammerhead vs flying the lumbering oaf 100 times over.

Being the pilot is like being the driver of a big party bus. Everyone is having fun in the back and you are stuck driving a bus.

Now, this is the mentality i struggle with. Its a space game. As a wide eyed teenager watching Star Wars i dreamed of being a hot shot pilot like Luke Skywalker.

I'm sure someone we all know said something like that.

I want to be the guy flying the spaceship. As i've been fond of saying recently, i want to be Paul Simon, not Art Garfunkle.

If the flying the spaceships part is not fun, its more fun to stand in the back of ship, doing something else, then there is something fundamentally wrong with this spaceship game, or perhaps, something fundamentally wrong with what I expect SC to be (quite possibly). If it is the latter, then its certainly not going to compete with ED (or ED won't compete with it) because they will be fundamentally different games.

Don't get me wrong, if that is the game experience they are aiming for, and that is what backers want, then that's cool. It just reinforces that SC is not a game I will want to play.
 
I mean, just to follow up. How quick will engineering changes be able to be affected? How much of an effect will it have?

In ED, you're in combat, you need power to shields, its a click or two. Same in SC as far as i know. So what effect will rerouting have? How much of an effect? What will this do to other systems? How will it affect you in combat? Why would you do any of this out of combat? If in combat, will the engineer be able to do something before you go boom? Once done, will be it be enough to help you escape? Will NPC engineers react quickly to orders? What happens if the guy in engineering is AFK when you get attacked, because he's been sat there with nothing to do for the last 20 minutes, or he is present, but ERPing with the floor mopper because they also had nothing to do.

To me, it all reeks of two things.

1) Ivory tower thinking. Its all "wouldn't it be cool if?" type thinking, with little thought about whether its worth doing in the first place

and

2) Fiddling while Rome burns. Why the hell are they even working on stuff like this when the game is still missing core features. Its going to mean refactoring all ships again! Let the ships work just fine without all this fluff. Its adding layers that are not needed at the moment (if ever). Same goes for the required refactoring to get "air" flowing through pipes. Just abstract it away. room.isAir = True/False. Its good enough.

Its just more reason to believe this game will never see a release, either because they spend so much time dealing with fluff they run out of money or everyone dies of old age.
 
It's about fueling the dream so people don't stare at the poor state of the game for too long, and so they keep their wallets open. Just look at SaltEMike (or many others): deeply disappointed when witnessing new update/feature/refactor/roadmap suck, yet seconds later they're all watering eyes in awe at the new "wouldn't it be cool if?" or technobabbles CIG got out of their sleeve.

Don't get me wrong, if that is the game experience they are aiming for, and that is what backers want, then that's cool. It just reinforces that SC is not a game I will want to play.
Didn't want to take it literally myself but maybe we should: Star Citizen could be a hint. Them struggling in so many "space sim" departments and core fundations may also explain why all the derivative features... Though they also struggle at delivering consistent results on many other things (FPS, economy, bartenders, doors...), they'll probably derivate furthermore when they can.
 
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I mean, just to follow up. How quick will engineering changes be able to be affected? How much of an effect will it have?

In ED, you're in combat, you need power to shields, its a click or two. Same in SC as far as i know. So what effect will rerouting have? How much of an effect? What will this do to other systems? How will it affect you in combat? Why would you do any of this out of combat? If in combat, will the engineer be able to do something before you go boom? Once done, will be it be enough to help you escape? Will NPC engineers react quickly to orders? What happens if the guy in engineering is AFK when you get attacked, because he's been sat there with nothing to do for the last 20 minutes, or he is present, but ERPing with the floor mopper because they also had nothing to do.

To me, it all reeks of two things.

1) Ivory tower thinking. Its all "wouldn't it be cool if?" type thinking, with little thought about whether its worth doing in the first place

and

2) Fiddling while Rome burns. Why the hell are they even working on stuff like this when the game is still missing core features. Its going to mean refactoring all ships again! Let the ships work just fine without all this fluff. Its adding layers that are not needed at the moment (if ever). Same goes for the required refactoring to get "air" flowing through pipes. Just abstract it away. room.isAir = True/False. Its good enough.

Its just more reason to believe this game will never see a release, either because they spend so much time dealing with fluff they run out of money or everyone dies of old age.

I disagree about the air flowing through pipes being unneccessary. It is a major gameplay element of Oxygen Not Included. Once for moving gases around and second - no less important - moving and manipulating heat.
And Multicrew gameplay can work out well. If only I could remember the name of some game I once saw featured. Bridge Crew is a bit similar, but clunky without VR. Pilot and weapons officer separation often makes sense too, depending on the depth of the sim.
 
Unless multicrew is ultimately a mandatory chore thing (pun intended), the same as for ED will (already has?) emerge: why MC a ship when you can group with multiple ships and so being far more effective and secure assets (cargo, minerals...) by splitting them between ships?
 
2) Fiddling while Rome burns. Why the hell are they even working on stuff like this when the game is still missing core features. Its going to mean refactoring all ships again! Let the ships work just fine without all this fluff. Its adding layers that are not needed at the moment (if ever). Same goes for the required refactoring to get "air" flowing through pipes. Just abstract it away. room.isAir = True/False. Its good enough.
Multi-gameplay is a core feature (and a big one indeed). Actualy you can pilot and use turrets but nothing more to do in the ship for the crew. Managing and repairing the ship is awaited by a lot of players since a looong time. It's not a small addition to the game, it's a main part of the game. This gameplay should come also with a largely higher TTK for all big ships to let the crew some time to use it and make it relevant.
 
Multi-gameplay is a core feature (and a big one indeed). Actualy you can pilot and use turrets but nothing more to do in the ship for the crew. Managing and repairing the ship is awaited by a lot of players since a looong time. It's not a small addition to the game, it's a main part of the game. This gameplay should come also with a largely higher TTK for all big ships to let the crew some time to use it and make it relevant.
Ahh, reminds me of the times when FD dev said MC would increase a ship's efficiency / power or whatshesaid like five times. Which is kinda ridiculous in terms of balance but I'm sure Star Citisn't has that part soundly covered.
 
Multi-gameplay is a core feature (and a big one indeed). Actualy you can pilot and use turrets but nothing more to do in the ship for the crew. Managing and repairing the ship is awaited by a lot of players since a looong time. It's not a small addition to the game, it's a main part of the game. This gameplay should come also with a largely higher TTK for all big ships to let the crew some time to use it and make it relevant.

I understand what you are saying, but i also wonder about this little thing called reality as opposed to dreams.

Unless they make busy work for crew, then crew are not going to have anything to do. If it is busy work, it will soon feel like busy work. And on top, if AI crew are going to be a thing, then just fill up with AI crew instead and have your friends in their own ships... that is, if you want to be a hotshot pilot like Luke Skywalker.

The more SC goes on, the less it becomes like the original vision and the more it becomes like Second Life in space.
 
I understand what you are saying, but i also wonder about this little thing called reality as opposed to dreams.

Unless they make busy work for crew, then crew are not going to have anything to do. If it is busy work, it will soon feel like busy work. And on top, if AI crew are going to be a thing, then just fill up with AI crew instead and have your friends in their own ships... that is, if you want to be a hotshot pilot like Luke Skywalker.

The more SC goes on, the less it becomes like the original vision and the more it becomes like Second Life in space.
In essence Barotrauma is a multicrew game too. It can be played as a more complex "Among Us" too, but that never interested me - takes too long. "Among us" is about the time I like to see invested in getting killed and twiddling thumbs while being dead. Anyway, Barotrauma does the job quite well: You're in sub, the hull can be breached everywhere and mechanics can be busy there. Electricians are more limited and security and medical, too. Yeah, kinda works best as mechanic. Some activities require combat where security is good at. It does it's job because you can easily loose track and omniscience of what's happening so you should rely on comms.
Kinda like most MP games that have team work.
 
They are working on it... like everything else.
Are you sure they are working on that? Because this post confused me, from the hijacking ship thread:

"Just escape to the menu and try a different server. If CIG acutally honors their stretch goal of user servers then this, along with griefing will be a non issue, but I don't have much hope for that."

Stretch Goal of User Servers? Does this not conflict with single shard etc? I thought there was no getting away from others in SC, no solo mode?

stuck driving a bus.

have you seen the one about scanning boxes and pallets into and out of ship to buy and sell? Some people would love a game in which they drive a bus, problem is someone has promised everyone everything.

Multi-gameplay is a core feature (and a big one indeed). Actualy you can pilot and use turrets but nothing more to do in the ship for the crew. Managing and repairing the ship is awaited by a lot of players since a looong time. It's not a small addition to the game, it's a main part of the game. This gameplay should come also with a largely higher TTK for all big ships to let the crew some time to use it and make it relevant.

I think the question is more, whats the point of the ship? If Im stuck in a room looking at a monitor, why not just put a room on the ground and let me do it simulated or remote control instead? What is the actual point of the ships in SC when youre not encouraged or allowed to fly them? To look good and make money? Oh hang on, Ive answered my own question.
 
In essence Barotrauma is a multicrew game too. It can be played as a more complex "Among Us" too, but that never interested me - takes too long. "Among us" is about the time I like to see invested in getting killed and twiddling thumbs while being dead. Anyway, Barotrauma does the job quite well: You're in sub, the hull can be breached everywhere and mechanics can be busy there. Electricians are more limited and security and medical, too. Yeah, kinda works best as mechanic. Some activities require combat where security is good at. It does it's job because you can easily loose track and omniscience of what's happening so you should rely on comms.
Kinda like most MP games that have team work.

Nothing against team play. It can be cool. I'm just wondering how what is being discussed for SC will work in reality and how it will mesh with things like NPC crew and long travel times, etc.
 
Are you sure they are working on that? Because this post confused me, from the hijacking ship thread:

"Just escape to the menu and try a different server. If CIG acutally honors their stretch goal of user servers then this, along with griefing will be a non issue, but I don't have much hope for that."

Stretch Goal of User Servers? Does this not conflict with single shard etc? I thought there was no getting away from others in SC, no solo mode?



have you seen the one about scanning boxes and pallets into and out of ship to buy and sell? Some people would love a game in which they drive a bus, problem is someone has promised everyone everything.



I think the question is more, whats the point of the ship? If Im stuck in a room looking at a monitor, why not just put a room on the ground and let me do it simulated or remote control instead? What is the actual point of the ships in SC when youre not encouraged or allowed to fly them? To look good and make money? Oh hang on, Ive answered my own question.

Private servers were part of the original pitch.

I very much doubt they will do those until much later after release, if ever, because it could too easily chip into their revenue.
 
Unless multicrew is ultimately a mandatory chore thing (pun intended), the same as for ED will (already has?) emerge: why MC a ship when you can group with multiple ships and so being far more effective and secure assets (cargo, minerals...) by splitting them between ships?
It's the same design problem that has occurred in all multicrew as far back as I can remember (which, granted, is only the Bf1942 / Planetside 1 era). As such, since the people at CI¬G have no experience to speak of when it comes to game design and are too lost up their own orifices to be able to find their way to the internet and do some research, they're clueless about these decades-old facts.

Any N-crewed ship that isn't also N times more lethal and survivable than a one-man ship is inherently worthless because you're getting less bang for your manpower buck and also waste a ton of player on being that worthless.
Any N-crewed ship that isn't also less lethal and survivable than a one-man ship if the crew isn't present is also inherently overpowered because instead of filling it up with N crew, you could just bring N of them, single-crewed and reap the benefit of having that beefier ship.

You can't really make ship survivability a function of the number of crew (even with some kind of nonsensical engineer gameplay where one player keeps the ship working) in any sensible way without creating even larger balancing issues, so the only way to resolve that inherent design conflict is to make all multicrew ship incapable of offensive combat if not crewed. The pilot has no weapons; the first crewman has a big honking gun to make up for that; and not being able to split your fire or minimise the loss when a player dies is just the cost you pay for flying multicrew. If there's any notion of combat-repairs making any difference (they really won't — combat that lets that happen is too boring, so you do post-combat repairs when all crew slots can chip in anyway), then the same offensive-to-defensive scaling needs to happen to every weapon position. That makes for an even larger balancing nightmare, so the best option is to just dump that horrible idea from the start.

But here's a problem, doubly so when you decide to make P2W a core part of the gameplay like CI¬G has: who on earth will get a ship that leaves the pilot — the guy who bought the damn thing — completely ineffectual in combat? Even with some romantic notion of having teammates to fill the position, those won't be available all the time, and even when available, they will have their own things they want to do rather than make the pilot's money be worth anything. You also can't just fill the slots with AI crewmates because then we're back on square one: it's now a 1-crew ship (with AI) so there's no reason to multicrew it — any extra players are better spent on flying a extra ships. The only way to design a multicrew ship that has any semblance of balance and value in the game is to make sure it has no semblance of balance and value to the person buying the ship.

Goodie.

Nothing against team play. It can be cool. I'm just wondering how what is being discussed for SC will work in reality and how it will mesh with things like NPC crew and long travel times, etc.
It won't. CRobber has been to busy dreaming up totally-not-the-Millennium-Falcon-honest-guv' scenes that will be replayed in-game somehow, that he never bothered to figure out that “somehow” and the actual game design requirements and caveats to make that happen.

The guy coming to blow you to bits for bleeps and giggles doesn't care about the tension of you not finding your hydrospanner to repair the tachyon multicoupling so he's not going to give you the narrative pause in the action needed for that drama to play out. That only happens in scripted movies.
 
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