Star Citizen Discussions v7

[Tippis]

Even if there were exaggerations and delays, people at CIG are clearly working hard to make a revolutionary game. I saw people commenting that its not revolutionary, but it is, this kind of scale to made seamless, with incredible graphics, and with multiplayer, has never been done.

Yes it has.

The only part that's slightly new is the graphics, and not only is that not revolutionary — it's just standard progression — but it's ageing very quickly and will cease to be new in short order. Part of the visuals is already lagging behind what's on offer, even on supposedly lesser platforms. So what's revolutionary about it? Its scale is pretty small compared what's already out there, so that can't be it. Seamlessness has yet to be seen — their demos have plenty of breaks in them and we have yet to see how they'll hander something larger than a very tiny planet system. Multiplayer has yet to be seen as well. The game falls apart with single-digit players, and at that level, it's almost regressive rather than revolutionary. So where's the revolution?

And as they are now in development it looks very unlikely they will fail.

By what measure and logic? Soon into their seventh year, and they have no foundation for an actual game. Their income has long since ceased keeping pace with their costs. They're not even into what would be considered an alpha for most projects and have even themselves repeatedly called it a pre-alpha, suggesting that it will require many many more years before it becomes anything worth-while.

And the statement that development started in 2011, is clearly an exaggeration

Tell that to Chris. He's the one who said it.

And I find it funny that I look like a massive well informed SC fan right now.

Oh, don't worry — it comes naturally from hanging out in this thread, where you actually run a chance (some would say risk) of finding out the state of the game. Most other places would not let that happen and would indeed prefer to keep you ignorant because it serves the purposes of those who run those places (eg. the grey-market sellers who moderate some of the larger communities out there).

I just had to say something, since I find your negativity exaggerated way out of proportion, leading to unfair treatment and judgment of hard working people. Insulting CR here is treated like normal and even encouraged, and I find that very rude.

No-one is judging or treating unfairly any of the hard-workign people. Quite the opposite — it's a commonly expressed feeling of pity that they're stuck in such a bad situation. Also, you're still confused about the treatment of Chris. It's not insulting — it's just facts. It's close to three decades of recorded and well-known history. If the facts reflect poorly on the person, then that's a problem with the person, not with the facts or with those who discuss those facts.

Now, trying to suppress those facts under som silly notion that reality is mean or by making wanton accusations against those who present those facts, on the other hand…

At least he is trying to create something new, to add something to the world.

Even that is questionable at this point, considering how derivative the whole thing has proven to be. Also, this is no different from anyone else in the industry so no bonus points there.

 

[Toumal]

That Polygon article is made of the same theorycrafting used on the official forum. Shameful. Nobody asks the hard questions anymore.

Like: if every star we see can be visited, does that mean we see only 1 or 2? Or do we see all 100 everywhere we go? Or do we actually see stuff that is just not visitable?

Yeah. More . Don't support this.

 

[Borgkube]

A brief news article about the Citizencon keynote, from The Dead Parrot Media Network (Polygon? No? Oh, well...).

https://www.polygon.com/2017/10/28/16561980/star-citizen-arc-corporation-planet-dity-citizencon

I had forgotten that Roberts announced that CIG is apparently going back to time-bound Alpha releases. Remember that updates to 2.0 we're going to be released monthly? They managed one update before that idea was abandoned. Well, now 3.0 updates are going to be quarterly.

I won't be betting on CIG sticking to that promise, though.

Makes sense though. Much less embarrassing to only miss 4 deadlines a year instead of 12!

 

[lysan]

I don't want to take away the borrowed feathers regarding the city generation, clearly they hired someone from cityengine and if I remember correct, one of the founders was actually at the citizenCon to speak.

Now, PG generation of cities is not new, it all done before, so if someone want to claim never done before it must be what you can do in the city. Large cities you can see in games like GTA, most of the houses are closed, so nothing new here.

The cities are backdrops to create immersion, and we all need that. However everyone could actually do that. Look at FSX, we could flyover large cities for years now, you even got traffic moving around on the ground.


[video=youtube;JCpop8GlLC4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCpop8GlLC4[/video]


Soon they will probably claim they can make clouds better than never seen before, and to that I will just say, then you need to make it better than this.

[video=youtube_share;vxNkk-A2TXk]https://youtu.be/vxNkk-A2TXk?t=47s[/video]

 

[Zetta]

Dualshockers have another article up about CitizenCon https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-videos-graphics-163-million/

 

[lysan]

Dualshockers have another article up about CitizenCon https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-videos-graphics-163-million/

Drunk of koolaid sad to see, the presstitutes are out in force, ask the hard questions no? but then again don't wanna rock that money machine.

 

[Garix]

Drunk of koolaid sad to see, the presstitutes are out in force, ask the hard questions no? but then again don't wanna rock that money machine.

From the article: "Before you watch the videos, you should keep in mind for the sake of full disclosure that the author of this article is also one of the backers of the game."

Not so much drunk it as wallowing in it.

 

[TenakaFurey]

You are saying that SC might have same 'grind' problem as ED has?

I don't think "might" comes into it.

Of course, we have a lot of people who are currently going to avoid the grind by buying ships today. But getting back to reality, I have yet to see how any game of Elite or SC can totally avoid the "grind" issue. In game cash is needed and that is got through ingame activities (or purchasing it for real cash in SC). There are only a certain number of ingame activities - missions, mining, combat, trade, etc - that can be undertaken.

The real trick is not to avoid the grind - likely impossible - but to offer the player a variety of tasks and tools with which to perform them, and to balance those tasks so that none feels more rewarding than any other other. EDs problem isn't with the "grind" per se...it's with the relatively shallow game mechanics which make people notice the grind.

Star Citizen, when it launches, will have pretty much the same issues

 

[TenakaFurey]

I'm sad to see so much negativity towards Star Citizen here. I had hoped to see sci fans happy to see another space game with a huge scope being worked on, no matter if it takes a long time to release. 3.0 is almost in our hands, and you still find reasons to criticize, with points that were already cleared in the ATV's, that showed the complex mission system, how they plan to fill the worlds with NPC's and playable content, and so on.

I am VERY happy that there is another space game coming out.

But to be blunt - I don't think it will. At least, not in the format that we have been promised.

More - I KNOW for a fact it will not. Chris Robert, in July, has already walked back on the 100 systems at launch promise. Now it is just 5 to 10. That's pitiful...a few thousand players will be able to clear most of the exploration content in a few weeks, 3 or 4 systems won't provide a lot of visual variety for traders and it likely means anyone getting access early will have a major advantage over late starters.

I want SC to be released...I want it to be the game that we were promised.

But I also know that the game we were promised is NOT going to happen. And I do not believe that CIG or CR is above criticism on this issue over how they have mishandled the development of this game.

Even in the current presentation, which was so cool, you find such silly reasons to criticize. Instead of being amazed by the fact you can fly in a futuristic city, anywhere you want on the planet, or go seamlessly into space, and travel to another planet, you criticize the fact the buildings repeat and are like in Blade Runner?

Those are minor criticisms and reflective of the work and effort that went into this demo. what SHOULD have been a showcase for the future turned into another missed opportunity.

But the truth is that creating cityscapes like this and moving through it is relatively easy. It looks impressive - but it would have been more impressive if this had been done ingame instead of a specially crafted on rails demo. The question as to how much of this reflects game reality - especially since CR admitted that the demo is showing stuff we won't be able to do in game - is very relevant.

Come on, seriously... They even showed in the presentation that they have a simple system in place to generate those buildings and it was clear there that those you can't visit will be similar to each other. They made tools to make generating large scale content easier, and its obviously very complex. The fact that it works will speed up production.

They showed a tool that duplicates tools that have been on the market for the past few years. One has to wonder why.

Be more positive, a lot of people are working on this, not only CR, and they deserve respect and admiration for their achievements, which are obvious for anyone watching the ATV's, even before the release of 3.0.

I'm kinda impressed CIG have managed to do so much given that they have CR as their manager.

 

[TenakaFurey]

Oh, no, not at all, since SC is a dream project that only fits into my fantasy.

Honestly though, I do think SC will be a much worse grind fest than ED ever was. Between trying to finishing a mission, you have to eat, drink, and go to the bathroom in the game, every 10 minutes because of some "immersion" requirement. And then your character gets tired every hour and has to sleep for 20 minutes. And that's for a mission that won't pay a fraction of the insurance on the ship that just got blown to pieces. That's what I fear will happen.

As with some of the other more onerous game mechanics that Chris Roberts has mentioned from time to time, I am assuming such activities will be removed.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Dualshockers have another article up about CitizenCon https://www.dualshockers.com/star-citizen-videos-graphics-163-million/

Planetary rotation is perhaps one of the most interesting things: in most open world games, the environment is motionless, and the sun simply moves in the sky.

And not even a nod towards ED or KSP or Universe Simulator.

But of course not, because only CIG can do something so never been done before revolutionary....

 

[Rudolphus]

Good you seems to have had a refund or did sell them to others with gifting, good you did get your money back it seems me madness to spend that amount of money for a game.

I also had the BMM, plus a lot more ships, $3000 worth of ships to be precise. However I don't believe CR will deliver what is promised. If you investigate his track record it's pretty bad. In my honest opinion the backers are being milked now, so much wasted money on miscalculations.

If they manage to get a game out of the door I will buy a copy and play it, but not before it's ready for release.

That is years away if you ask me.

 

[TenakaFurey]

I've actually been following SC's development since 2014, and its not that dramatic as you make it out to be, with a bazillion broken promises, and only tech demos to show for it. CIG started the true work on a lot of its advanced system about then, in 2014, with the UK office just starting to hire people in that year (http://www.develop-online.net/interview/meet-foundry-42-s-star-citizens/0194206), the Frankfurt office opening its doors in 2015 (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...mes-Opens-New-Development-Office-In-Frankfurt), and hiring continuing since then constantly. Game development is extremely difficult, as I know from personal experience, and even with 2.6, Star Marine being playable, and 3.0 so close to release, only after 2-3 years, is quite amazing to be honest.

Games just don't pop up with moving your mouse a little on the screen in Cryengine, its a lot of work involved, and doing that with a new studio, without the advantage of the big companies, Beth, Ubi, Bioware, that have years of experience, huge budgets, and vast armies of game devs, is to be appreciated and admired. Even these huge companies work for many years on their releases, that bring very few innovations (Mass Effect Andromeda took 5 years to develop).

They are doing a fantastic job so far, even though some mistakes were made, and I'm surprised and disappointed you can't see it.

Edit: CR is indeed too optimistic with his release dates, but he started to tone it down with experience. In the last presentation he didn't make this mistake again. Its easy as a developer to make this mistake, to think you can easily solve some problems that are actually extremely difficult.

So - your rationale is that we should ignore the first three years of game development that were essentially wasted because of Chris Roberts decisions and only count the last three or so?
That we should remember that in CIG, development stops while Chris Roberts hires on more staff? That CRs inability to continue development AND expand his business, something other developers do as a matter of routine, should be overlooked?
That CIGs inability to deliver anything beyond a tech demo that showcases potential future systems even after 6 - nearly 7 - years of development on this game should be overlooked?
That, six years into the project, we still do not have a clear idea of gameplay mechanics or content, is not a bad sign? That we still cannot even say how many players the game is intended to support?
And the fact that CIG are still in a pre-Alpha phase of development, with an incomplete engine, with fundamental systems still unfinished or, in some cases, not even started, after those same 6 year of development is not a matter of concern?

And the problem isn't that he is too optimistic with release dates - the problem 1..that he lies about them and 2...that he has gotten them hugely wrong for years, meaning he is consistently underestimating the amount of work, time, money and manpower required to realise his vision. When he plans for 4 man months to develop a feature and it ends up taking 20...that is a huge problem. Especially when he keeps doing it. Especially when it takes that 20 to develop a feature that is missing half the promised functionality.

 

[kilvenny]

@Dreamer1986

SC as envisioned by the rhetoric and demo's emanating from CIG is a game the majority of posters on this forum would want to play. We could also accept that a lot of tools need to be built to enable mass generation of planets and the terrain, buildings etc that populate them. However after five or six years one would expect those tools to be mature enough to propagate game content in much more rapid fashion. Instead 3.0 is heavily delayed and a fraction of what was promised. 2017 has seen a downturn in the funding curve, 470 employees is now cutting into reserves so time is now a factor. I could go on, but my point is there are warning flags on this project and this thread recognises them for what they are.

 

[cpbtrading]

If they manage to get a game out of the door I will buy a copy and play it, but not before it's ready for release.

That is years away if you ask me.

I also fully believe it will be a fair few years before they get the game to a, well, finished state. That said, I do think they'll get a game out, mainly because of the links they have [money]. £1-200mil more.. I see no problem, without crowd funding now. Should they need to go and ask.
Of course should they do that, the game may come out slightly differently, very toned down and able to be played on most mid range machines too. They do need post release sales and they'll want plenty of them.
Plus a possible sub or similar system (only perhaps).

 

[TenakaFurey]

Well, Stretch goals? The release of 2014 was supposed to be a much smaller project

Whatever happened to "the stretch goals won't delay the release because we'll hire more staff to compensate"?

, similar to Wing Commander.

It's now Privateer.

with the adding of multiplayer, 100 playable systems

,

Current plan is now 5-10 systems at launch.

a combination of FPS and Space Simulator, with trade, combat, exploration, dozens of unique ships, capable of having multiple players serving various functions + the single player SQ42. Its incredibly ambitious, and to have even 2.6 and Star Marine now is an amazing achievement. Look at ED or Eve Online that finds the idea of space legs incredibly hard to implement. CIG already done it, and its an early alpha. Outstanding work.

ED can add space legs tomorrow. Eve already did so. For both the problem isn't space legs so much as the necessary content to justify space legs. Chris Roberts would have you loading cargo, eating and drinking, and going to seedy bars instead of using a phone. Does any of that add anything to the game? Space legs has enough potential to be worth adding...just not enough to be a priority

Edit: and all this while fighting against an engine that was built only for small scale multiplayer and small levels (Cryengine). They had to modify it completely.

There is no real justification that can excuse the continued use of CryEngine. CIG have spent vastly much more time and money modifying the engine than they would have done building one from scratch. They still have not finished it.

Edit2: and 3.0 is almost out, so what if it took one year instead of a few weeks. Check out the ATV's to see how many bugs they had to fix in the last few months. Like I said, Robert was generally too optimistic with the release dates.

When Chris Roberts estimates that it will take 4 weeks to deliver a patch, that means he belies it requires so many man hours, so much money.
When said patch is stripped of 90% of its content and still ends up taking 13 times longer than planned...that also means 13 times as much manhours, 13 times as much money to deliver one tenth the content. It means there is a serious problem with project management somewhere.

 

[Zetta]

Made me laugh

 

[TenakaFurey]

Edit2: You want a timeline? I give it about 5-6 more years until initial release, if I follow the normal release schedule of games launched so far.

Really? I'd have said 3 or 4.

As it is, most AAA game take about 5. 5 or 6 more years of development would put Star Citizen on 11, going on 12.

 

[Iskariot]

https://i.redd.it/ddouaejl5ouz.jpg

From: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/79dtbg/sean_tracy_on_building_interiors_reposted/

Make sense, basically FSX city generation and that is not a bad thing.

Yeah, I have no problem with that at all.
It is not sensible for any game to have interiors in every building.

I must state that I also do love the city generation SC showed. I have always loved that sort of stuff and fooled around with it myself.
If they can pull that off and integrate it into the game I would enjoy that very much.... well... eventually... when the game gets released... someday, some year, some century...

 

[Mu77ley]

hostable servers by individuals pretty much pointless now with true persistence

Please explain this statement. Because aside from the fact that having "true persistence" is another thing they've claimed without showing any evidence for it, being able to run a private server of a game is entirely unrelated to storing information in a back-end database (something every MMO in existence has done since the beginning).