Star Citizen Thread v6

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Exactly...I agree 100% with you on this......Anyway there was some strange correlation between CR and Crytek from the very beginning....also that guy Croberts friend Sean Tracy is still working for CIG and he was also Crytek employee now he is Technical director of content in CIG and he is the one in "charge"of that Faceware nonsense.....anyway I don´t want to speculate but maybe CIG have some kind of deal with the Crytek and that could be the reason why they choose this engine in a first place and didnt go for something that will suit them better....
I guess Crytrek provided the KS prototype demo.

AAA gaming development isn't usually a great model for development anyway. Its well known in the industry that the gaming industry is one of the worst to work in with bad practices and bad management commonplace. I suppose CR is just keeping up with tradition :D
What those people praising that AAA game development don't realize is that still 80 % of those AAA video games simply fail. Most get canceled and shut down behind closed doors with nobody noticing. Some get wrapped up and released and don't make money (like Mass Effect Andromeda). A few titles make insane amounts of money and finance the search for the next cash cow.

With crowdfunding the consumer bears the entire risk of failure. If it doesn't work out economically, the consumer usually loses their money and gets no game (not even a Mass Effect Andromeda). If it turns out to be a cash cow (like Minecraft), the developer happily keeps the riches for himself. Crowdfunding is simply not a sensible model for video game development and consumers need to be warned of the extremely high risks.
 
For me those demos are part of SC project that can be claimed to be a scam. Because Chris went around during KS and claimed that this is actually working prototype - despite having NOTHING of that sort regarding gameplay - turned out it was just a shiny demo. I will guess that he doesn't see it as scam due of fact that for him graphics are everything.

Anyway, I feel it is time to depart from fun land again. Too much talk for non-subject that is SC these days.
 
This is a good post from the SA thread.

Why 3.01 is ***** , or 'if you want mining, first you must create the universe'.

Allow me to describe a simple scenario from a decidedly non-fidelitous and inferior space game, Elite, which is naturally a pale shadow of what the best space game ever is going to be in terms of complexity and realsim. Please bear in mind therefore that the following represents below an acceptable level of fidelity: In order to meet the expectations of backers, Chris needs to deliver a gameplay experience that is somehow deeper than this.

I want to mine some space rocks.



Part 1: I outfit my ship.

Mining at its very basic level requires a few key things: the ability to break off materials from the rocks surrounding them, the ability to process them into something useful, and the ability to store and transport them. I equip my ship with mining lasers, a refinery, and a cargo bay. But I like quality of life improvements as well: it would be nice if I could improve the yield of everything I'm mining, so I buy a controller for prospector limpets (drones that burrow into the asteroids I'm mining and tell me about their composition, and increases the amount of minable material I'm able to get off of a single asteroid), as well as one for collector limpets (drones that fly out and pick up individual hunks of rock so that I don't need to fly my ship over to every single one in order to scoop them into my cargo bay). I also think that I might need protection from people trying to pirate my goods: because I don't want to be a sitting duck, I equip my ship with a hanger bay so that my buddy can patrol a fighter around while I'm busy with rocks and keep hostiles off my tail.

Things required for the mining loop so far: Mining equipment. Refining equipment. Materials storage. Equipment for scanning minable bodies. Equipment for retrieving ore. Woking multicrew. Hostile enemy ships dedicated to pirating miners. Mechanics by which ships can liberate enemy cargo while in combat with them so as to avoid just blowing the cargo up while fighting.


Part 2: I work out where to go mining.

I open up my galaxy map and figure out where to go in order to start making some sweet, sweet spacebux. I notice that a nearby star system has a bunch of worlds with metallic ring systems, which usually has better prospects for mining. I travel there. Around one gas giant there's a pristine ring system that has one of each resource zone: a low-traffic zone which has smaller yields but less people zooming around in it and which would be generally safer, a high-traffic zone that has lots of people in it because the mining's good, and a hazardous zone which may have the best prospects, but which has no police presence due to the fact that it's in a black spot for distress calls - a real Wild West scenario. I decide to go to the high-traffic zone: I'm equipped enough to deal with a few pirates that might try to harass me and can last long enough for the cops to get there if I start to get overwhelmed.

Things required for the mining loop so far: Mining equipment. Refining equipment. Materials storage. Equipment for scanning minable bodies. Equipment for retrieving ore. Woking multicrew. Hostile enemy ships dedicated to pirating miners. Mechanics by which ships can liberate enemy cargo while in combat with them so as to avoid just blowing the cargo up while fighting. Multiple star systems. Multiple worlds with varying types of resources, richness in resources, and types of mining zones. Multiple minable material types. AI miners to populate zones. Police presence, and the notion of high and low-security zones.


Part 3: I go mining.

I launch and engage my frameshift drive to travel to my targeted star system, and fly there. I boost towards the planet's ring and drop in to the metallic asteroid zone. Finding a likely asteroid that doesn't have anyone else mining it, I blast it with my mining laser, and target the chunk of rock that comes off of it. Cobalt. . I find another asteroid, and repeat. This one has a fair amount of gold content, so I launch a prospector limpet at it, and start mining, launching collector limpets as I go. I pirate jumps in and scans my hold: finding gold there he attacks. My buddy in the fighter and I fight back, and kill him with an assist from a police cruiser: safeguarding my days' work, and getting a small bounty reward into the bargain as it's not that guys' first rodeo. Finally when my hold is full I boost out and head back to my space station. But I realise that the station I'm heading to is an agricultural one, and has little use for gold. I locate a station with more of a bent towards precious commodities and go there instead. Finally I sell my mined materials, repair my ship from the damage it took in the battle, and plan my next move. My buddy gets a chunk of the profits.

Things required for the mining loop so far, hyper turbo extended edition:
Mining equipment.
Refining equipment.
Materials storage.
Equipment for scanning minable bodies.
Equipment for retrieving ore.
Woking multicrew.
Hostile enemy ships dedicated to pirating miners.
Mechanics by which ships can liberate enemy cargo while in combat with them so as to avoid just blowing the cargo up while fighting.
Multiple star systems.
Multiple worlds with varying types of resources, richness in resources, and types of mining zones.
Multiple minable material types.
AI miners to populate zones.
Police presence, and the notion of high and low-security zones.
Planets with ring systems.
AI miners.
Minable bodies with differing materials and levels of richness.
Scanning minable materials to determine their composition.
The ability to scan other ships to determine if they are worth pirating.
A fully-formed bounty system.
A fully-formed universal economy that provides incentives to sell different commodities to different buyers.
Repair and re-arming systems.
A profit-sharing system for multicrew.

I could go on, and frankly there's a bunch of stuff that I've likely missed because this is something that I'm typing up in my free time as I post on the internet. But look at how many dependencies the mining loop that a comparable game has. And look at all of the dependencies I've listed and think about how many of them would have multiple dependencies of their own.

At that game's current state, assuming that all of the game-breaking bugs in the current build were solved overnight, that whatever they're doing with mining it planned to a tee, and a competent dev team with unlimited funding took over, Star Citizen could have a mining gameplay loop that rivals the inferior nonfidelitous space madness simulator Elite: Dangerous by 2019 at best.
 
For me those demos are part of SC project that can be claimed to be a scam. Because Chris went around during KS and claimed that this is actually working prototype - despite having NOTHING of that sort regarding gameplay - turned out it was just a shiny demo. I will guess that he doesn't see it as scam due of fact that for him graphics are everything.

Risks and challenges

We are aiming for a AAA game experience. But depending on the funding levels reached, we may have to limit the experience for the initially released game version. Nonetheless, Chris Roberts and his teams have shown consistently that they are able to develop epic story-based games. Even with our very limited self-funding we have been able to do already a lot of work which is why we can show you not just concept art and a cinematic trailer, but an extensive demo of actual game play. So, we are confident that even with limited means we will be able to deliver an amazing experience.


Source:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen
 
Found this video about Star Citizen

[video=youtube;RReXBYyUFuI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RReXBYyUFuI[/video]

Its nothing special but the author managed to remain civil and factual while investigating the dream and its potential. He doesnt try to sell Star Citizen as something that its not but stays on topic thinking aloud about "how great it ll be if any of this would be real". He might have the opinion that CiG is making good progress and will eventually get there but that is his opinion and right. This is a good example of someone who i d have no problem talking to because he doesnt express a fanatical vibe like BoredGamer does. He probably doesnt follow the development closely or simply isnt invested heavily emotionally or financially. I can see myself having a good discussion with this guy without having to "convince him" that SC is a scam IMO. Because the things he finds impressive I do as well. The footage is indeed impressive and nice looking. Actual content and competence to deliver on said videos are of course a completely different matter so I dont need to bring that up. I just left a comment there because I wanted new people who didnt hear about Star Citizen before mistake the video for actual ingame content. But I have no doubt that I ll get a good flaming there soon.

Also SC white knights and ultras either didnt find that video yet or dont care anymore because the comment section is pretty one-sided so far.
 
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Unlike you John I remember exactly how CIG and the fans behaved when they were hyping up the travesty that is Star Marine. You can try and rewrite history all you want but the fact remains that they were blowing their own trumpet about how it was going to be the fps to end fps games and so on.

Please keep the revisionism to Spectrum and the subreddit. Thank you.
 
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Also SC white knights and ultras either didnt find that video yet or dont care anymore because the comment section is pretty one-sided so far.

Nah, already comments about how CIG should take as long as they need, how ED is lacking content, and its only 3 years into development :D
 
Bugs never were the issue really. People had and still have LOTS of understanding and patience regarding bugs. At the moment certain bugs are hilarious because some are 4-5 years old and remain unfixed. The issue at hand are all the missing features and core mechanics after more then 5 years of development. If CRoberts indeed has a development plan it remains unseen and secret because it seems like the project is utter chaos. racks in record amounts of funding and still doesnt get anything done. He also seems to be unable to make a clear cut regarding the games concept design and keeps upping the bar by adding more and more stuff without delivering on year old promises and announcements.

When I watch the gamescom video I am not bothered by bugs. I am bothered by the no-show of AI, obvious scripts indicating on-rails gameplay and lots and lots of other things. "Bugs" really are the least of the worries I have in this regard.

I agree, that's kind of consistent with what I was saying in the rest of my post that was snipped. :)

The only thing I disagree with above: they are actually getting stuff done; but it's the wrong stuff. They're adding spit and polish to individual resources & locations, which is a terrible idea since not only is it time/effort/resources not spent on fleshing out the game dynamics, but it's increasing the amount of work that needs to be done on all future resources/locations to keep them up to the same standard.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
Ok, bit of housekeeping done.

Please remember the thread is here to discuss the game itself.

Thanks.
 
The only thing I disagree with above: they are actually getting stuff done; but it's the wrong stuff. They're adding spit and polish to individual resources & locations, which is a terrible idea since not only is it time/effort/resources not spent on fleshing out the game dynamics, but it's increasing the amount of work that needs to be done on all future resources/locations to keep them up to the same standard.
It's the wrong stuff from our perspective but not, I suspect, for them.

We want them to add the things that would enable us to actually have a game we can play. They want to give us the impression there is a game to play so work on the things they can show off to us, at arms length, and say "Look! Look at what we have achieved!", while simultaneously not allowing us to actually play that, so have in effect delivered nothing. Then several months later something dribbles out that barely resembles what we were shown.

Last years Gamescom they showed us that sandworm demo. But what did players actually get their hands on a year later? A CryEngine level with some assets thrown in to a sandbox and that's it. No trading. No missions. No mining. No bounty hunting. Just pew pew and pretty mediocre pew pew to boot.
 
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It's the wrong stuff from our perspective but not, I suspect, for them.

We want them to add the things that would enable us to actually have a game we can play. They want to give us the impression there is a game to play so work on the things they can show off to us, at arms length, and say "Look! Look at what we have achieved!", while simultaneously not allowing us to actually play that, so have in effect delivered nothing. Then several months later something dribbles out that barely resembles what we were shown.

Last years Gamescom they showed us that sandworm demo. But what did players actually get their hands on a year later? A CryEngine level with some assets thrown in to a sandbox and that's it. No trading. No missions. No mining. No bounty hunting. Just pew pew and pretty mediocre pew pew to boot.

Not even the sandworm.
 
That is his problem in a nutshell. He's been away from gaming for 10 years and more, yet on his return he seems to have taken the attitude of 'Wow I can't believe what these noobs are doing, good job I've decided to be a complete failure in Hollywood return to the industry to bathe them all in the warm light of my genius and shake things up.'

Magical thinking abounds.
Lol. So true.

I assume his better way is taking seven or eight years to do it. Maybe ten.
Well, considering that it's taken 5 years to get here, and there's not even a playable demo, not even a beta, ... not even an alpha version yet! An alpha version is like the prototype. It's like in the first 10-20% of the cycle. I believe we have to wait at least 5-10 years before a beta, but only if they manage to get the "alpha" version out in within the next 6 months. A final product... well, I'm not sure I will be alive to see it. Starting to get up there in age.
 
Finally got the time to watch the Gamescom demo. I'm actually not bothered about bugs or crashes in an Alpha (or even a Beta) build. As a software dev who's given lots of demos, I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who has one go wrong like that. (But by God did they handle it badly! No plan for what to do when it went wrong. Ended up having to repeat all the previous actions as if sticking to scripted actions for fear of going off-plan and hitting a mine-field of new bugs. And Chris Roberts 'secretly' calling for them to get off the loading screen over and over... Yikes).

My concern is the more you raise the bar with graphics; environmental complexity, variety and entropy; environmental interactivity; multiplayer interaction; contiguous gameplay in lieu of fade-to-black transitions etc., they all raise the bar dramatically in terms of the time, effort and cost to add anything to the game. Building a galactic simulator would be trivial, if you do it as a text adventure. They're promising such a level of detail it's going to take a proverbial age to implement any kind of reasonably sized game-world. This game is years off release (or else, any MVP is going to be a microscopic game world).

If CIG did estate agents...
Customer: When's our apartment going to be ready to move into?
CIG: Look at these cups! Aren't they beautiful? See the detail and finish! Now, look at these kitchen drawers, see how they move? And we have this amazing new form of concrete..
Customer: Errr, ok. Which floor is it on?
CIG: Did I mention the drawers? See? In..out..in..out... wait a minute. Can we go back to the loading screen? I was able to push and pull these earlier without the wall falling down.... Heheh.
Customer: ...ok. And how big is the apartment?
CIG: ....wanna buy a cup?

:)

I am kidding a bit. I thought the 'face over IP' bit was a very cool addition to the social side of gaming; plus I'd absolutely love to be able to explore ships the size of the Idris. I actually would prefer to see SC make it to release, with a small, but very detailed and interesting game world rather than ED's massive but empty, repetitive and simplistic game world and dynamics. I get the feeling both of these games are going to let me down in very different ways! :)

Good anology ....

Bugs never were the issue really. People had and still have LOTS of understanding and patience regarding bugs. At the moment certain bugs are hilarious because some are 4-5 years old and remain unfixed. The issue at hand are all the missing features and core mechanics after more then 5 years of development. If CRoberts indeed has a development plan it remains unseen and secret because it seems like the project is utter chaos. racks in record amounts of funding and still doesnt get anything done. He also seems to be unable to make a clear cut regarding the games concept design and keeps upping the bar by adding more and more stuff without delivering on year old promises and announcements.

When I watch the gamescom video I am not bothered by bugs. I am bothered by the no-show of AI, obvious scripts indicating on-rails gameplay and lots and lots of other things. "Bugs" really are the least of the worries I have in this regard.

What got me is the deflection by the floor crew of SC making a joke of all the bugs that we saw ... or video bug reports being shown as what, entertainment?

Sadly, but imho predictably, Star Citizen is showing all the signs of being another Freelancer.

The only differences this time being: the funding model means that for a while the project can continue under Roberts' control; and there's no Microsoft in the wings to pick up the pieces. Here's a little slice of deja vu, from June 2000:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/article_29857

Anyone else humming the Propellorheads track, History Repeating...?

Freelancer finally came out as a fairly good game I played it for several years. Even after Microsoft closed the servers. But I'm not sure it, Freelancer was good because of CR, or his leaving it. I suspect the latter or IT may never been released.

Chief
 
Also SC white knights and ultras either didnt find that video yet or dont care anymore because the comment section is pretty one-sided so far.
I watched a bunch of videos of demos of SC, and yes, it looks amazing. He's right about that. But... it's just demos. Nothing we can play or test or check or even confirm to exist as of yet. As far as we know, the demo videos were specially constructed to showcase what CR wants to do and achieve, but not necessarily what they have working as of now. The only thing CiG/CR has managed to do so far is to create hype for a product that looks amazing, if it comes to fruition, but 5 years of hype and demos does start to burn you out. I'm a big fan. I want to believe. But my problem now is that it's a scattered project with 100 different technologies and features, all of them unfinished. CR needs to focus on a few things and get them done. Push the core functionality. The important stuff and release it as the alpha. Make it a playable version, call it 1.0, work on next release where facecam, drunk simulator, and all that other stuff can be included. People who paid for ships they still can't play will eventually want to be able to fly them, not in the next 10 years, but soon. And I'm sure that those who paid 10,000 (not me, phew) for the maxed out accounts don't care for facial tracker thingymabobber but rather want to actually play what they paid for (the hundreds of ships).

Procedural Birds Confirmed! :p
What about procedural mosquitoes? And bug bite simulator, which itch. And then they can have anti-itch cream in the virtual store as well, for real money. Sell a tube for $200. There ya' go. Now they can really make money on the game. :D
 
Lol. So true.


Well, considering that it's taken 5 years to get here, and there's not even a playable demo, not even a beta, ... not even an alpha version yet! An alpha version is like the prototype. It's like in the first 10-20% of the cycle. I believe we have to wait at least 5-10 years before a beta, but only if they manage to get the "alpha" version out in within the next 6 months. A final product... well, I'm not sure I will be alive to see it. Starting to get up there in age.

You just don't understand software development. For the last 4, no 5, no 6 years they have just been laying the foundations, building the pipelines, and are only just starting the proper development. Now everything is getting up to speed and they will start pumping out content. Ok, i said that last year, and the year before, but this time its definitely true!

/s (just in case its needed).
 
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