Store scrubbing paint jobs again?

If so, Buyer beware of purchasing future skins.
Would be good to hear a frontier response. As real currency for digital purchases are involved.

Is this cull for the live client?
Flimley

The first ship I ever bought, in ED, was my CM3.
I didn't buy any cosmetics until Horizons arrived, at which point I immediately bought the CM3 ship-kit and the Union Jack paintjob.

Fast forward several years and my CM3 was stored in my FC, along with a bunch of other ships, when I decided to take a bit of a "holiday" from ED.
When I got back, my FC was long-gone and all my ships were stored at a station, presumably near where I left my FC parked.
Except that not all my ships survived.
I "lost" a T7, an iClipper, a Python and my beloved CM3.

Flew to Jameson Memorial, bought a replacement CM3, went to fit the ship-kit and the Union Jack paintjob and.... apparently I don't own them any more. :unsure:
I was going to raise a ticket about it but, honestly, after 2 years away it turns out I'm not that bothered about it. 🤷‍♂️
 
They didn't say that. They said "all year round" which generally doen't imply any endpoint.

Speaking as somebody who gets annoyed by abuse of the English language, stuff like this really bugs me.

It really irks me when people/companies try to "spin" things (sometimes quite innocently, in an attempt to make it just sound "better") to the point where the intended meaning is lost.

If somebody tells me "you can enjoy this plant all year long" it implies it'll be like this for a year and then I am going to have to toss it in the bin.
If, OTOH, they say "you can enjoy this plant all year round" the implication is, as you say, simply that it'll remain the same throughout the year for an unspecified number of years.

Ironically enough, the fact that we can have a discussion about the actual meaning of a corporate announcement kind of proves that announcement was flawed.
 
I've worked on big game productions and have met marketing experts whose whole careers are focused on computer games. I suspect the real reason you won't get an answer here is that players won't like it, don't actually want to hear it, and will argue until blue in the face that the expert is wrong ;)
I would genuinely love to hear explanations behind these decisions. Not to argue about them but to at least understand the why, because I keep drawing blanks on that question.
 
I would genuinely love to hear explanations behind these decisions. Not to argue about them but to at least understand the why, because I keep drawing blanks on that question.
In a nutshell - there are two edge types of products/services to sell. To keep it simple, with a lot of things in between missing, since I'm not in a mood to write pages of terminology:

1. What people actually need, and that cannot be re-used once consumed/used. For example, food or specific legal services, etc. Once any product/service like that is consumed customer needs to buy another, repeat.

2. What people might want/desire, but don't actually need, and it is re-usable.

These two groups are very different in sales tactics they require to have profits. In between those, there are products/services with various degrees of need/want/re-usability, these utilize combination of fundamental sale tactics of those two groups. For example, a washing machine doesn't have the same need as food, but has a desire for comfort, it could irreparably break and you would need/want another, etc. All that in between is not relevant for our discussion, as any mixed sales tactics from all that do no apply for infinitely re-usable products with all sales potential of which is based on a wants/desires.

Digital products, such as Paintjobs for ships - are products with a sales potential 100% dependent on wants/desires, with no actual need, and they are infinitely re-usable.

Since the dawn of time (or sales of something people don't actually need), to sell products with low or no 'need' for them - the most fundamental tactic is - utilization of a combination of limited availability, exclusivity, prestige and qualities that people potentially find desirable. Proportions in such a combination depend on a specific product/service.

It doesn't matter how anyone feels about it, simply because that is how all sales work. Any company wants to make profit, to cover costs/expenses, to have a safety net, to grow - for all of that company needs money, the more the better. Creating new products requires additional expenses, so when companies are selling infinitely re-usable products they also have to think about the liquidity of their older products, since there always a potential for new customers.

Now, Paintjobs are basically 'colours to paint something' that exists in many games. With this type of product, company has three main ways to go about it:

  • Skew tactic more in the direction of limited availability / exclusivity / prestige.
  • Or make the product non-reusable (all these games with 1-time use dyes).
  • Mix of the two above.

There is also the fourth one, like a meta for any digital products combination - a loot box.

For example, all those sports games that released every year to re-sell the same stuff again and again - utilize the second and third option. Lootboxes (with how you can get doubles) do this too but with a different flavour.

Or, another example, of the first this time - Limited availability of Paintjobs.

Now, with how scamming of options 2-4 works I think everybody is very familiar, no need to go into details here.

First option is the least manipulative, and also the oldest trick - yep, it is also has a manipulative component, albeit a small one (comparatively). For majority of people desires have a degree of flexibility. For example - someone wants a Void Black badly - part of that desire is Black, so by not having Void Black that person can go for a substitute, a Midnight Black. If all of these products were present - that second sale would not happen. The same goes for any other substitution of options. On top of that - there is a "new" factor (potentially desirable category), when something is absent for a long time, when it is back it has a potential to create a partially "new" feeling about it. There are also a few factors of much lesser impact, and not that relevant.

Majority of customers also have a limit to their budget - the thing about this budget is that it is reoccurring. By trying to tap into it all at once - sales potential actually goes down. By playing a longer game (limited availability, substitutes, battle passes, etc) - potential goes up. Ofc, if company what's to maximize from all sides - it can use all of it at once. It is important to note here - nothing like that happens to us, as there is huge different between variety to sell and aggressive manipulation that the Store doesn't have even in a slightest.

For customers that are rigid in their wants/desires - this manipulation is nothing but annoying. Customers with more flexile wants/desires - can have their joy with substitutes and are going to generate additional profits, which in this case - practically no harm done. I think anybody can understand of which types of customers there are always much more, since the fundamentals work since the dawn of time, plus people and circumstances do change.

Main thing about all that - it is impossible to have good sales of products/services that are infinitely re-usable and have all their sales potential based on wants/desires without a manipulation. Simply because that is how emotion/impulses work in human beings.

As Archvillain said - ppl will argue until blue in the face - I don't care how anybody feels about it or what grand strategy of convenient conditions they want to fantasize about. As long as there are people, money and success depends on them - there will be specific fundamental principles of how things are done, from how they start to how they need to be changed to progress further or even just to continue.

With that - I don't think FDev does a best job it can in this regard. They could do a more open limited availability strategy - year-seasons themes + holidays specials for each season, with all ever created PJs on a steady rotation with constant additions of new ones on each season switch plus with new ships releases, with occasional sales of lower liquidity items for the season - and it would be more effective and enjoyable for everybody.

I'm not going to discuss it any further, and not interested in agree/disagree/whatever replies.
 
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Nevermind the fancy paints you can actually buy right now, what about the ones that still haven't come back? FD don't seem to understand some players don't want blinged out ships, and are unable to throw money at the screen due to lack of options. If you're reading this, lay off the hamster jokes for a moment and tell FD to put the squadron paints back in the store fully.
 
In a nutshell - there are two edge types of products/services to sell. To keep it simple, with a lot of things in between missing, since I'm not in a mood to write pages of terminology:

1. What people actually need, and that cannot be re-used once consumed/used. For example, food or specific legal services, etc. Once any product/service like that is consumed customer needs to buy another, repeat.

2. What people might want/desire, but don't actually need, and it is re-usable.

These two groups are very different in sales tactics they require to have profits. In between those, there are products/services with various degrees of need/want/re-usability, these utilize combination of fundamental sale tactics of those two groups. For example, a washing machine doesn't have the same need as food, but has a desire for comfort, it could irreparably break and you would need/want another, etc. All that in between is not relevant for our discussion, as any mixed sales tactics from all that do no apply for infinitely re-usable products with all sales potential of which is based on a wants/desires.

Digital products, such as Paintjobs for ships - are products with a sales potential 100% dependent on wants/desires, with no actual need, and they are infinitely re-usable.

Since the dawn of time (or sales of something people don't actually need), to sell products with low or no 'need' for them - the most fundamental tactic is - utilization of a combination of limited availability, exclusivity, prestige and qualities that people potentially find desirable. Proportions in such a combination depend on a specific product/service.

It doesn't matter how anyone feels about it, simply because that is how all sales work. Any company wants to make profit, to cover costs/expenses, to have a safety net, to grow - for all of that company needs money, the more the better. Creating new products requires additional expenses, so when companies are selling infinitely re-usable products they also have to think about the liquidity of their older products, since there always a potential for new customers.

Now, Paintjobs are basically 'colours to paint something' that exists in many games. With this type of product, company has three main ways to go about it:

  • Skew tactic more in the direction of limited availability / exclusivity / prestige.
  • Or make the product non-reusable (all these games with 1-time use dyes).
  • Mix of the two above.

There is also the fourth one, like a meta for any digital products combination - a loot box.

For example, all those sports games that released every year to re-sell the same stuff again and again - utilize the second and third option. Lootboxes (with how you can get doubles) do this too but with a different flavour.

Or, another example, of the first this time - Limited availability of Paintjobs.

Now, with how scamming of options 2-4 works I think everybody is very familiar, no need to go into details here.

First option is the least manipulative, and also the oldest trick - yep, it is also has a manipulative component, albeit a small one (comparatively). For majority of people desires have a degree of flexibility. For example - someone wants a Void Black badly - part of that desire is Black, so by not having Void Black that person can go for a substitute, a Midnight Black. If all of these products were present - that second sale would not happen. The same goes for any other substitution of options. On top of that - there is a "new" factor (potentially desirable category), when something is absent for a long time, when it is back it has a potential to create a partially "new" feeling about it. There are also a few factors of much lesser impact, and not that relevant.

Majority of customers also have a limit to their budget - the thing about this budget is that it is reoccurring. By trying to tap into it all at once - sales potential actually goes down. By playing a longer game (limited availability, substitutes, battle passes, etc) - potential goes up. Ofc, if company what's to maximize from all sides - it can use all of it at once. It is important to note here - nothing like that happens to us, as there is huge different between variety to sell and aggressive manipulation that the Store doesn't have even in a slightest.

For customers that are rigid in their wants/desires - this manipulation is nothing but annoying. Customers with more flexile wants/desires - can have their joy with substitutes and are going to generate additional profits, which in this case - practically no harm done. I think anybody can understand of which types of customers there are always much more, since the fundamentals work since the dawn of time, plus people and circumstances do change.

Main thing about all that - it is impossible to have good sales of products/services that are infinitely re-usable and have all their sales potential based on wants/desires without a manipulation. Simply because that is how emotion/impulses work in human beings.

As Archvillain said - ppl will argue until blue in the face - I don't care how anybody feels about it or what grand strategy of convenient conditions they want to fantasize about. As long as there are people, money and success depends on them - there will be specific fundamental principles of how things are done, from how they start to how they need to be changed to progress further or even just to continue.

With that - I don't think FDev does a best job it can in this regard. They could do a more open limited availability strategy - year-seasons themes + holidays specials for each season, with all ever created PJs on a steady rotation with constant additions of new ones on each season switch plus with new ships releases, with occasional sales of lower liquidity items for the season - and it would be more effective and enjoyable for everybody.

I'm not going to discuss it any further, and not interested in agree/disagree/whatever replies.
In case my post came across the wrong way (and your lengthy response suggests that tbh), I very well understand the underlying concepts and motivations in general, but I would like to (though realistically never will) see some internal numbers to support their seemingly nonsensical decisions.

It basically would suggest they make more revenue by drastically reducing number of products (a skin being one product), reducing the time many (often highest priced) of them are available, plus opportunity cost of not providing more products (FC paints, interior colours, HUD colours etc), while alienating some customers with significantly jacked up prices, compared to essentially the opposite of all of the above.

I'd find that hard to believe in all honesty.
 
In case my post came across the wrong way (and your lengthy response suggests that tbh), I very well understand the underlying concepts and motivations in general, but I would like to (though realistically never will) see some internal numbers to support their seemingly nonsensical decisions.

It basically would suggest they make more revenue by drastically reducing number of products (a skin being one product), reducing the time many (often highest priced) of them are available, plus opportunity cost of not providing more products (FC paints, interior colours, HUD colours etc), while alienating some customers with significantly jacked up prices, compared to essentially the opposite of all of the above.

I'd find that hard to believe in all honesty.
It is that simple. There is nothing more to it. As I've mentioned - there is no aggressive manipulations in the Store, only the most basic principle. Price increase is a natural and normal thing, from one side there is an economic situation, from another side - it is a prestige part of manipulation (as to turn negative into at least somewhat positive from a business pov). Anyone who can count money understands that this move is going to do some damage. But any damage like this is only relevant for a short time. If other numbers suggest that it is warranted - they are going to bite the bullet, just as they did. Forums, Twitter, other echo-chamber-like places may look like there are still a lot of people who are not buying from the Store after the increase. In reality this perception is false, 2024 with continuation to the latest big feature is very clear indication of that even without exact numbers. Yes, small vocal minority still keeps this damage partially in effect, but as long as the game is good - positives for the business are going to outweigh the negatives no matter what that vocal minority does.

As for specific numbers, haha, ofc not - nobody in their right mind will ever give the customers/public any of their financial data. There are obvious legal, security and financial reasons for that, but there are quite basic human reasons too. Customers are first and foremost interested in the value they get for the money they spend, and lets be honest - cheaper/free for more and more value is how it goes for overwhelming majority at minimum. Would you provide your customers with your financial numbers so they could judge you from their PoV to tell you how much they think is enough for you? Even thinking about it is absolutely pointless and leads to nowhere.

Reducing the number of products, to re-introduce them later and make them available for a time - is exactly how limited availability works. As I've said - selling substitutes and less liquid items, tap into reoccurring budgets instead of all at once, etc... - all that is playing the long game, where repeated bursts of sales generate more profit over a longer period of time than a one time full availability.

With all indications available for outside observers - it is actually very smart that they use this tactic. Not only it is the least manipulative of them all, but it is also means that they plan to keep development for a long time, otherwise such strategy wouldn't work, as it only works for as long as they keep adding content/features to the game. One pushes and pulls the other.

Availability of new products depends very little on do they want to add them or not. Everything has expenses attached to it. So it is much more important - do they want to add things to the Store or to the game more. So far they add more things to the game, can't say it is bad.

With everything in 2024 - Frontier made a decision, gave it a solid try and succeeded. They provide players with more content, a better game, make game more appealing for new players, they are releasing free updates for everybody and from what we know right now - they are going to continue this way in 2025. The way the Store is right now also makes it so the new monetization for new content/features doesn't compete with anything else on the Store - this is quite important to curate a long game.

There is no nonsense here.

The only thing I think is not a good job in this regard - is that they have 0 predictability about even a part of what could be available and when. Without it - the whole thing quickly became - ohh, it is suddenly available. If there was a steady rotation off all available cosmetics, on a seasons of the year basis, with surprise availability of holidays season specials, new additions and high value items (for example, wireframed etc.) and sales at the end of the season for a few items that didn't sell well during the season - it could be a lot less annoying for customers and still would have almost all benefits of limited availability. But this is only my guess, from what I can see from the outside, as from the inside there could be details that makes this suggestion a complete rubbish.
 
It is that simple. There is nothing more to it. As I've mentioned - there is no aggressive manipulations in the Store, only the most basic principle. Price increase is a natural and normal thing, from one side there is an economic situation, from another side - it is a prestige part of manipulation (as to turn negative into at least somewhat positive from a business pov). Anyone who can count money understands that this move is going to do some damage. But any damage like this is only relevant for a short time. If other numbers suggest that it is warranted - they are going to bite the bullet, just as they did. Forums, Twitter, other echo-chamber-like places may look like there are still a lot of people who are not buying from the Store after the increase. In reality this perception is false, 2024 with continuation to the latest big feature is very clear indication of that even without exact numbers. Yes, small vocal minority still keeps this damage partially in effect, but as long as the game is good - positives for the business are going to outweigh the negatives no matter what that vocal minority does.

As for specific numbers, haha, ofc not - nobody in their right mind will ever give the customers/public any of their financial data. There are obvious legal, security and financial reasons for that, but there are quite basic human reasons too. Customers are first and foremost interested in the value they get for the money they spend, and lets be honest - cheaper/free for more and more value is how it goes for overwhelming majority at minimum. Would you provide your customers with your financial numbers so they could judge you from their PoV to tell you how much they think is enough for you? Even thinking about it is absolutely pointless and leads to nowhere.

Reducing the number of products, to re-introduce them later and make them available for a time - is exactly how limited availability works. As I've said - selling substitutes and less liquid items, tap into reoccurring budgets instead of all at once, etc... - all that is playing the long game, where repeated bursts of sales generate more profit over a longer period of time than a one time full availability.

With all indications available for outside observers - it is actually very smart that they use this tactic. Not only it is the least manipulative of them all, but it is also means that they plan to keep development for a long time, otherwise such strategy wouldn't work, as it only works for as long as they keep adding content/features to the game. One pushes and pulls the other.

Availability of new products depends very little on do they want to add them or not. Everything has expenses attached to it. So it is much more important - do they want to add things to the Store or to the game more. So far they add more things to the game, can't say it is bad.

With everything in 2024 - Frontier made a decision, gave it a solid try and succeeded. They provide players with more content, a better game, make game more appealing for new players, they are releasing free updates for everybody and from what we know right now - they are going to continue this way in 2025. The way the Store is right now also makes it so the new monetization for new content/features doesn't compete with anything else on the Store - this is quite important to curate a long game.

There is no nonsense here.

The only thing I think is not a good job in this regard - is that they have 0 predictability about even a part of what could be available and when. Without it - the whole thing quickly became - ohh, it is suddenly available. If there was a steady rotation off all available cosmetics, on a seasons of the year basis, with surprise availability of holidays season specials, new additions and high value items (for example, wireframed etc.) and sales at the end of the season for a few items that didn't sell well during the season - it could be a lot less annoying for customers and still would have almost all benefits of limited availability. But this is only my guess, from what I can see from the outside, as from the inside there could be details that makes this suggestion a complete rubbish.
I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious in my posts on this, of course I don't expect Frontier to share internal numbers with us, that'd be silly and naive to expect. I was just saying I'd love to see them*, if only to check whether your assumption - that they know what they're doing - is accurate.

As for the rest of your post, probably best to agree to disagree - you believe they know what they're doing, and I'm rather skeptical on that. Neither of us can prove to be right due to the lack of aforementioned data points, *and afaik they don't publish performance figures in their annual reports in a detailed enough fashion to get a view on how successful their latest changes to Arx/cosmetics are/will be (cynical me wonders why).
 
you believe they know what they're doing, and I'm rather skeptical on that
I believe they (Frontier) think they know what they are doing. They might admit internally to making mistakes, but won't admit it publicly. I think the closest we'll get to them admitting to a mistake is "we've heard your feedback and the paintjobs will be in the store a bit longer".
 
I didn't think it was necessary to state the obvious in my posts on this, of course I don't expect Frontier to share internal numbers with us, that'd be silly and naive to expect. I was just saying I'd love to see them*, if only to check whether your assumption - that they know what they're doing - is accurate.

As for the rest of your post, probably best to agree to disagree - you believe they know what they're doing, and I'm rather skeptical on that. Neither of us can prove to be right due to the lack of aforementioned data points, *and afaik they don't publish performance figures in their annual reports in a detailed enough fashion to get a view on how successful their latest changes to Arx/cosmetics are/will be (cynical me wonders why).
I don't care about right and wrong. I care to gather/exchange information, to analyze it and get to a conclusion. There are things visible with a naked eye, and none of them require access to anything internal.

Player engagement is up. Player feedback is up and more favorable. Number of players (even with just Steam charts) is up. A lot of posts from returning and new players on various platforms. Lots of players who bought pre-build ships and talk about it (Titan event, better start, etc.). Lots of players who talk how they would like more cosmetics. - These forums and a simple google-fu provide all that information (here is something to start with - pretty good for a 10 yo game).

Even with that, the pessimistic view would be - The fact that the game continues the way it does after that year - also shows that it is, at the very least, not doing worse. So they don't continue on a previous path downwards.

I do believe that they know what they are doing to an extent, as I know what it's like to create something that didn't existed before and engage with experiments that can only be proven successful or not after they are released, no matter the previous statistics/analytics/guesswork. So far, actions make sense, results speak for themselves. Maybe they are not on your own individual level, but overall picture is quite illuminating.
 
My hot take is they keep falling onto their feet despite their best efforts of unwitting self sabotage, because the core product (stellar forge/horizons) is strong enough to carry them through the various mishaps and poor decisions, combined with a real lack of direct competition and a pretty loyal core player base.
 
My hot take is they keep falling onto their feet despite their best efforts of unwitting self sabotage, because the core product (stellar forge/horizons) is strong enough to carry them through the various mishaps and poor decisions, combined with a real lack of direct competition and a pretty loyal core player base.
All of that may be true. Maybe we even get to know the answer for some of that in the end of 2025. None of that has any relevancy to how 2024 with all the changes in it turned out to be. And if it was like that in spite all that - pretty nice, hehe
 
More money from offering less? As if this game isn't competing with new games, gacha mobile games, and guitar pedals for my discretionary budget. If I have more than normal extra and something isn't available in the store right then, it's not getting saved, it's going directly to a mobile game or a guitar store. If I'm putting together a new build and I think it needs a paint I don't have, I'm not checking after I've flown it until the default paint falls off, that's just the paint on that one forever.

Contribute to the continued development of the game? Keep giving me those pay to win early ships and I'm sold. Cosmetics? Stock the store so what I want is there when I feel like buying one and stop overthinking it.
 
So my Canadian Flag paint job will disappear if I remove it from my Conra III?
I admit I’m in Elite while reading this and didn’t read the deep considerations of corporate policies- sociopathic profit maximizers by definition, I think my Flag is still there and I takes what I can get so tanks F Dev. But keep communicating even if it makes some “moves” difficult because of customer pushback.
 
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So my Canadian Flag paint job will disappear if I remove it from my Conra III?
I admit I’m in Elite while reading this and didn’t read the deep considerations of corporate policies- sociopathic profit maximizers by definition, I think my Flag is still there and I takes what I can get so tanks F Dev. But keep communicating even if it makes some “moves” difficult because of customer pushback.
But another cobra III.
See if you can put your Canadian flag paint on the new ship.
They are not tied to only one ship when bought.
So you should be able to do so.
 
So my Canadian Flag paint job will disappear if I remove it from my Conra III?
I admit I’m in Elite while reading this and didn’t read the deep considerations of corporate policies- sociopathic profit maximizers by definition, I think my Flag is still there and I takes what I can get so tanks F Dev. But keep communicating even if it makes some “moves” difficult because of customer pushback.

But another cobra III.
See if you can put your Canadian flag paint on the new ship.
They are not tied to only one ship when bought.
So you should be able to do so.

I've got quite a few paintjobs associated with my account that are no longer for sale; in fact almost all of them are; apparently my taste in paint isn't worth selling any more. You'll still be able to apply them to your ship at will, it's just players that don't already own it won't be able to unless Frontier randomly decides to let them again.

I think that's my biggest issue with the limiting and rotation of the store. This stuff exists, it's in the game, it's right there in the files so it can be displayed if someone else has it. It's just an arbitrary restriction to scare people into buying it "while you can". It's also the lack of communication of if, not when, something might be available again. I have a favourite style; if I knew those paints were coming back for 3 months in the Summer, I can save up and have the cash ready. As it is they may come back on sale, at some point, maybe, maybe not, who knows? Just buy what we tell you, when we tell you, like a good little ATM, OK?
 
So my Canadian Flag paint job will disappear if I remove it from my Conra III?
I admit I’m in Elite while reading this and didn’t read the deep considerations of corporate policies- sociopathic profit maximizers by definition, I think my Flag is still there and I takes what I can get so tanks F Dev. But keep communicating even if it makes some “moves” difficult because of customer pushback.

It shouldn't.

As has been suggested, simply buy another CM3 and see if you can apply the paintjob.

I think something happened to my account while I was away.
A bunch of ships went missing from my fleet, I lost access to a bunch of Guardian modules and I lost the paid DLC I'd bought for the CM3 (ship-kit and 2 or 3 paintjobs).

I was starting to think I was losing my marbles but I've spent the last 2 or 3 days re-unlocking the Guardian stuff and my inventory is already full of the Guardian mat's not required to unlock the stuff I want but there was just dregs of the mat's I did need... indicating that I've already collected heaps of Guardian mat's and then cashed-in the stuff required to unlock the modules I wanted.

I mean, I have screenshots of my CM3, complete with ship-kit and brit' flag paint so I know I'm not crazy but they're not in my inventory now. 🤷‍♂️
 
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