[Suggestion] Discovery scanners should trigger signal sources

[Lateralus]

A simple suggestion: using your discovery scanner should trigger 2 or 3 signal sources every couple of minutes when used. This would help reduce the material grind to something more manageable as currently; looking for High Grade Emissions is probably the most fun-destroying activity in the game, but is mandatory for higher levels of engineering.

There would be a cool-down to this so you could not trigger too many signal sources at once, and the more advanced the scanner you have equipped, the more likely the chance to trigger rarer signal sources like HGE's or Combat Aftermath.

 

[Marra Morgan]

Yep, I like this.

I'm not really a fan of having to wait for USS spawns, be it for materials, missions or curiosity. Putting the spawns in our control makes more sense, and the cool-down period provides balance.

+1

 

[Ian Doncaster]

This would be a good place to bring in the "discovery scans attract attention" mechanic, too - you find the better stuff quicker, but other things find you.

 

[VR SenseiMatty]

Yes, those shouldn't be so random. But you should also be informed about the type or the threat.

Just USS is useless becaue they spawn around you anyway and I don't want to run 100k LS for a blown ship with 2-3 materials to collect

 

[avow555]

Good idea OP, a definite improvement on the current inadequate system.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Some questions:

What range would USSs show up at? Systems are potentially huge - especially places like Alpha Cent, so you'd be looking at thousands, probably millions of USS in a system. Good luck scrolling through the contacts list.

How do you handle instancing? Does everyone in the instance see the same set of USSs? If they do, then you have to download the current set whenever you jump into a system, which is going to take some time.

Do they persist? If they don't, then you'll have to honk every time you return to SC after dropping into one. If they do, then how will you know which ones you've visited?

Saying 'they should show up on scan' is easy, but when you start looking into the practicalities of how it would work and what the effect would be, you start to see why random spawning makes sense.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

What range would USSs show up at? Systems are potentially huge - especially places like Alpha Cent, so you'd be looking at thousands, probably millions of USS in a system. Good luck scrolling through the contacts list.

They currently only show up out to 1000Ls even if you're travelling fast enough for them to appear further out, so this should be self-limiting.

How do you handle instancing? Does everyone in the instance see the same set of USSs? If they do, then you have to download the current set whenever you jump into a system, which is going to take some time.

This seems to be a much *easier* problem than NPC ships, which can move, interdict, etc. and are detected instantly rather than on a player choosing to honk. Sharing those between players in an instance seems to work pretty well already.

Do they persist? If they don't, then you'll have to honk every time you return to SC after dropping into one. If they do, then how will you know which ones you've visited?

As with ships, most likely would be "yes if there's someone keeping that supercruise instance active, no otherwise". Probably USSes should disappear if someone drops into them at the same time the low wake does.

Saying 'they should show up on scan' is easy, but when you start looking into the practicalities of how it would work and what the effect would be, you start to see why random spawning makes sense.

Well, they still could be randomly spawned, though - but several would show up in a 1000 Ls sphere on honk, rather than a single one showing up f(speed) Ls ahead of you on a timer.

I agree that pre-filling the system supercruise on creation with a distribution of semi-persistent USSes would be much tougher ... though, again, nothing they haven't already done with CZs, "Pirate Activity Detected", Checkpoints, and similar ...

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

They currently only show up out to 1000Ls even if you're travelling fast enough for them to appear further out, so this should be self-limiting.


This seems to be a much *easier* problem than NPC ships, which can move, interdict, etc. and are detected instantly rather than on a player choosing to honk. Sharing those between players in an instance seems to work pretty well already.


As with ships, most likely would be "yes if there's someone keeping that supercruise instance active, no otherwise". Probably USSes should disappear if someone drops into them at the same time the low wake does.


Well, they still could be randomly spawned, though - but several would show up in a 1000 Ls sphere on honk, rather than a single one showing up f(speed) Ls ahead of you on a timer.

I agree that pre-filling the system supercruise on creation with a distribution of semi-persistent USSes would be much tougher ... though, again, nothing they haven't already done with CZs, "Pirate Activity Detected", Checkpoints, and similar ...

The issue (as I see it) isn't so much the ability to place a USS - as you say, they do it with CZs, etc - so much as the sheer number of them that you'd need to populate a system. A dozen CZs is one thing, a hundred thousand USSs is something else entirely.

Another factor to consider is the distribution. Lets say that you want USSs to be 30 seconds apart, which is a fair approximation of how they currently appear. Deep in a gravity well that can be a few Ls, but in deep space that rapidly becomes tens of thousands of Ls and the generation routine will need to take that into account. Not insurmountable, but not trivial either. Factor in the heterogeneous distribution of sources - HGEs are (I think) more common in deep space - and you're looking at a very complex system. All of which is just because players want rare things to show up more frequently. Far easier for FDev just to increase the spawn rate of HGEs

Also, non-persistence will just result in players mode-swapping until they get HGEs nearby

 

[Lateralus]

All of which is just because players want rare things to show up more frequently. Far easier for FDev just to increase the spawn rate of HGEs

Even if the spawn rate is increased, you're still relying on an entirely random system which is the frustrating part. Sometimes of course, RNG decides its not going to spawn what you want for literally hours. If we are at least able to spawn a few signal sources at once on command, the pointless waiting for spawns would be eliminated and the chances of getting what we want would increase.

Also, non-persistence will just result in players mode-swapping until they get HGEs nearby

Mode swapping would not be necessary because the cool-down would remain after a login (like ship transfer waiting time does). There could also be a distance requirement to get away from the current batch of signal sources before spawning new ones that would persist through modes.

 

[TheMegaTurnip]

My good god so much yes.

Why this was'nt a thing from 2.1 onwards I don' know.

Hell, even go as far as to give us a dedicated scanner for signal sources I'd say. Similar structure to the existing DSS' but more expensive and with heavier power consumption.

The we can have dedicated farming ships. Not to mention the propensity for interesting gameplay loops like finding space hulks, untouched for decades/hundreds of years, and have to extract materials from thier decaying bodies, etc, anything really, just make signal sources fun and interesting.

As it stands they are potentially the most vapid gameplay loop in existence.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The issue (as I see it) isn't so much the ability to place a USS - as you say, they do it with CZs, etc - so much as the sheer number of them that you'd need to populate a system. A dozen CZs is one thing, a hundred thousand USSs is something else entirely.

Sure - but you wouldn't need to put 100k in at once - just the ones that were actually detected, and they don't need to exist at all until someone looks.

(I'm not sure how many USSes per-system Frontier originally had planned to reveal on scans on its pre-supercruise travel method, but presumably not 100k!)

Another factor to consider is the distribution. Lets say that you want USSs to be 30 seconds apart, which is a fair approximation of how they currently appear.

I'm not sure that's required for this search method, though - they appear the distance ahead that they do so that you can see them and slow to scan them in time. If several appeared 'around' your current position and then you picked one to go to, the exact travel time wouldn't matter so much.

I'm thinking more of its use for mission signal sources than for HGEs here - at the moment, you fly up to a planet and then just have to wait flying at minimum speed until the MSS shows up. Much better would be to be able to fly to the planet, then honk - revealing three or four signal sources including the MSS.

For HGEs, given that "honk, check, fly 1000 Ls, honk again" is a more active approach than "fly in straight line at minimum speed for 10 minutes and hope" they could even reduce the chances of any individual USS being high-grade. Part of the problem at the moment is that if they made HGEs show up fast enough in the serial-timer method to not be very boring to hunt, well over half of USSes in those systems would end up being HGEs ... whereas if you can scan and get 5, its fine for most of the time there to be no HGEs (quite possibly most of the time you won't be after HGEs) and it's still more pleasant for HGE-hunters.

 

[discocat]

This is a neat idea to reduce that RNG. I wonder if Fdev, with the new exploration tools in Q4, has already planned something around signal sources detection...

 

[Marc_Hicks]

A simple suggestion: using your discovery scanner should trigger 2 or 3 signal sources every couple of minutes when used. This would help reduce the material grind to something more manageable as currently; looking for High Grade Emissions is probably the most fun-destroying activity in the game, but is mandatory for higher levels of engineering.

There would be a cool-down to this so you could not trigger too many signal sources at once, and the more advanced the scanner you have equipped, the more likely the chance to trigger rarer signal sources like HGE's or Combat Aftermath.

I am *really* hoping that this will be a major element of the Exploration overhaul in Q4. Been saying for a while that Scanning needs to be a more active process than is currently the case, & your idea fits within what I have long suggested. My idea was as follows:

When a Commander enters a system, it gets "populated" with a random "pool" of USS's (weighted by the population, economy type & system state).

Players can choose to encounter these USS's randomly, as they already do, or they can keep actively scan for the USS's as they go.

The better the scanner, the longer range over which USS's can be detected.

The USS's would be persistent until explored, & more close up scans will reveal ever more detail about them. For example, a primary scan will reveal the presence of multiple USS's within x Light-seconds of the ship. Selecting one of the USS's & actively scanning it will reveal it to be a "Combat in Progress" USS (for example). Closer range scans will reveal the number of ships present within that USS. Very close range scans might even reveal the tonnage of the ships involved......just as an example.

I also agree with Ian. The stronger the scan (the longer you hold the scan button down for), the more "info" gets revealed during the scan......but the more likely you are to be revealed to any passing ships. Another idea I've also had for a while.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

They currently only show up out to 1000Ls even if you're travelling fast enough for them to appear further out, so this should be self-limiting.


This seems to be a much *easier* problem than NPC ships, which can move, interdict, etc. and are detected instantly rather than on a player choosing to honk. Sharing those between players in an instance seems to work pretty well already.


As with ships, most likely would be "yes if there's someone keeping that supercruise instance active, no otherwise". Probably USSes should disappear if someone drops into them at the same time the low wake does.


Well, they still could be randomly spawned, though - but several would show up in a 1000 Ls sphere on honk, rather than a single one showing up f(speed) Ls ahead of you on a timer.

I agree that pre-filling the system supercruise on creation with a distribution of semi-persistent USSes would be much tougher ... though, again, nothing they haven't already done with CZs, "Pirate Activity Detected", Checkpoints, and similar ...

Yes. The point is that the stronger the initial "Honk", the longer the range at which you can reveal any USS's & the more USS's you can reveal with any given honk, but that number would still be relatively small & finite IMHO. If the USS's remain persistent until examined by the Commander, then the player no longer is forced into the ludicrous position of choosing one over another. Also, if follow up scans can reveal more details about what is inside the USS, then players can choose to ignore ones that have nothing of interest to them within them.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Even if the spawn rate is increased, you're still relying on an entirely random system which is the frustrating part. Sometimes of course, RNG decides its not going to spawn what you want for literally hours. If we are at least able to spawn a few signal sources at once on command, the pointless waiting for spawns would be eliminated and the chances of getting what we want would increase.



Mode swapping would not be necessary because the cool-down would remain after a login (like ship transfer waiting time does). There could also be a distance requirement to get away from the current batch of signal sources before spawning new ones that would persist through modes.

Yeah, I don't think Drew really gets what is being asked for. For me it's less about "wanting rare things to show up more frequently" (the advent of Material Traders makes this far, far less of an issue) & more about making travel through systems a more active & engaging process......not just passively waiting for whatever floats by whilst a watch You Tube out of sheer boredom.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

My good god so much yes.

Why this was'nt a thing from 2.1 onwards I don' know.

Hell, even go as far as to give us a dedicated scanner for signal sources I'd say. Similar structure to the existing DSS' but more expensive and with heavier power consumption.

The we can have dedicated farming ships. Not to mention the propensity for interesting gameplay loops like finding space hulks, untouched for decades/hundreds of years, and have to extract materials from thier decaying bodies, etc, anything really, just make signal sources fun and interesting.

As it stands they are potentially the most vapid gameplay loop in existence.

The Dedicated Scanner is an interesting idea. Instead of "either one or the other" though, I'd instead say that one scanner type is better at detecting Stellar Objects & Naturally occurring USS's, whereas the latter is better at picking up USS's in general, & artificial ones in particular. This might allow for a differentiated between Scout Ships & Explorer ships. Just a thought.

 

[ATrifleMiffed]

This is a neat idea to reduce that RNG. I wonder if Fdev, with the new exploration tools in Q4, has already planned something around signal sources detection...

Well, they did mention wanting to implement deterministic USS that would probably interact with the new analysis HUD mode in some way. I've no idea if those are coming in Q4 or later down the line though.

 

[Lestat]

I think they should have a different module for SS scanner. Discovery scanner great for Large Objects. Asteroid and bigger to Planets.

Because of stuff tends to be around Larger objects or most traffic area.

We don't want an easy mode. That has an all in one scanner can do it all.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I think they should have a different module for SS scanner. Discovery scanner great for Large Objects. Asteroid and bigger to Planets.

Because of stuff tends to be around Larger objects or most traffic area.

We don't want an easy mode. That has an all in one scanner can do it all.

AS I said above, Lestat. I don't mind having Discovery Scanners being able to detect SS's........I just think they should be relatively bad at it compared to a more dedicated SS Scanner-&, conversely, SS Scanners would be worse at unveiling more info about Stellar Objects. This way, we avoid the problems of "Module Creep" whilst also still allowing Scouts & Explorer Ships to excel in their respective areas (I'd give Scout Ships-like the Asp Scout & Diamondback Scout-an additional Module slot specifically for SS Scanners, whilst giving Explorers an additional slot specifically for Discovery Scanners).

 

[Lestat]

AS I said above, Lestat. I don't mind having Discovery Scanners being able to detect SS's........I just think they should be relatively bad at it compared to a more dedicated SS Scanner-&, conversely, SS Scanners would be worse at unveiling more info about Stellar Objects. This way, we avoid the problems of "Module Creep" whilst also still allowing Scouts & Explorer Ships to excel in their respective areas (I'd give Scout Ships-like the Asp Scout & Diamondback Scout-an additional Module slot specifically for SS Scanners, whilst giving Explorers an additional slot specifically for Discovery Scanners).

Thing is the game is about choices and sacrifice. Smaller ships can't do it all and ship size does matter.