Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Kickstarter.
News Support update - Reiteration of player harassment rules
- Thread starter Zac Antonaci
- Start date
well said, but going solo is just treating symptoms, not the rootcause. as you see, there are still enough determined morons who join private non combat groups just to mess with them, EVE online style. never underestimate the determination of maniacs ^^
I fully agree on your argument regarding roleplaying (faction vs faction), that's why I was suggesting to alter the interdiction mechanic, so roleplaying is still viable and even beneficial. however, I dont see how aligning people with factions would solve the problem. to the contrary, I guess this would lead to either a full on war, with everybody attacking every other faction ship on sight. OR it ends up like star wars galaxies, where one side is MASSIVELY outnumbering the other, destroying the fun as well. (and then there is the balancing of faction ships, which is already a hot topic)
I'd rather make it harder to interdict players without reason (reason being cargo for example. or bounties)
I fully agree on your argument regarding roleplaying (faction vs faction), that's why I was suggesting to alter the interdiction mechanic, so roleplaying is still viable and even beneficial. however, I dont see how aligning people with factions would solve the problem. to the contrary, I guess this would lead to either a full on war, with everybody attacking every other faction ship on sight. OR it ends up like star wars galaxies, where one side is MASSIVELY outnumbering the other, destroying the fun as well. (and then there is the balancing of faction ships, which is already a hot topic)
I'd rather make it harder to interdict players without reason (reason being cargo for example. or bounties)
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I have to agree with you. Seems the problem is quite huge. For sure aligning players with factions coul'd result in what you say.
Ok for your point regarding interdictions , coul'd be a very good start.
I want to keep faith in what FD will do , however I feel that the rootcause comes from the depths of the system they put on... What I fear is that they rely on the easy way : ban some for whining of others , without the good reasons .
I indeed missed the point of players infiltrating groups to soil everything. I fear alas , that's the plague of online gaming.
The thing is that today , if a player joins a group , nothing tells you ingame that you belong to a minor faction or another regarding this group. If one day the community is better implemented ingame then perhaps it would ease things to filter annoying players. I don't know.
Well it seems that it's far more complicated than thought at first.
Ok for your point regarding interdictions , coul'd be a very good start.
I want to keep faith in what FD will do , however I feel that the rootcause comes from the depths of the system they put on... What I fear is that they rely on the easy way : ban some for whining of others , without the good reasons .
I indeed missed the point of players infiltrating groups to soil everything. I fear alas , that's the plague of online gaming.
The thing is that today , if a player joins a group , nothing tells you ingame that you belong to a minor faction or another regarding this group. If one day the community is better implemented ingame then perhaps it would ease things to filter annoying players. I don't know.
Well it seems that it's far more complicated than thought at first.
Thanks for the lovely reasoned response - always happy as long as people are actually thinking and considering, not just excusing
TBH I don't think there's any system ever that can't be abused, you just have to have a policy on what to do when it gets abused. This type of player will lie/cheat in any way he can to do what they want - abusing the game mechanics is part of the game to them. Keeping track of their behaviour might be key - it must be relatively simple to track whether someone is killing all players or a mix of NPC's and players, and indeed relative rankings. Someone gets accused of abusive play and harassment - their log gets checked - oh look 99% players and 80% lower ranking ones.... a stern warning then ban them to Solo mode if they continue.
TBH I don't think there's any system ever that can't be abused, you just have to have a policy on what to do when it gets abused. This type of player will lie/cheat in any way he can to do what they want - abusing the game mechanics is part of the game to them. Keeping track of their behaviour might be key - it must be relatively simple to track whether someone is killing all players or a mix of NPC's and players, and indeed relative rankings. Someone gets accused of abusive play and harassment - their log gets checked - oh look 99% players and 80% lower ranking ones.... a stern warning then ban them to Solo mode if they continue.
You're welcome
Yes you might be right , but the game ranks does not really reflect the skills and means of a player. Of course if the Pk does his nasty job in a conda , well , thing is quite obvious. But some don't really care about ranks and an average fitted cobra can be a nasty thing for traders and explorers. Most of all , pks often act in wings. That's why i am a bit suspicious on the ability FD got to clearly see the thruth in these actions .Their own gameplay acts against them in this way. Perhaps with play time log, which can figure the real "experience" a player could get..
Trying to find a solution to this seems to be really tricky.
Yeah the ranking is a little broken in that respect. We're past running on sheer number of kills/money these days, much more analysis can be done relatively easily - shot accuracy, speed of kill, dealing with countermeasures or multiple targets, learning to use subsystems - but would people care enough for it to be worth the dev time?
Though as you say it makes no difference to people's actual skills. I get a little bit of glee in my mostly harmless rating... it's not true at all, I just only kill if I have to.
Though as you say it makes no difference to people's actual skills. I get a little bit of glee in my mostly harmless rating... it's not true at all, I just only kill if I have to.
Linky Dink?
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Thank you Siobhan.
I posted this in another topic however the attitude of some players makes it relevant. I think that the PvP players think the game should be Elite Space Combat Simulator and ditch the rest of the game. However the real game is a combination of Il-2 and MFS X I am sure that there would be some who would love to shoot down airliners in their F-16/MiG29/Su27 as they could claim to be re-enacting the downing of the Korean 747 by the Soviet airforce (and not for the LoLz )
)
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Thank you - I cannot find the specific quote that states the game was named after the Dangerous rank though. I was hoping for FD confirming that is why they named the game in a particular way.
The series certainly has an awkward naming convention, what is the "Frontier" part of Elite 2 and First Encounters?
Elite
Frontier: Elite 2
Frontier: First Encounters
Elite: Dangerous
So the title is communicating that this is "Elite" from the time period after which the Pilots Federation opened its Elite Pilot Federation to pilots of "Dangerous"?
Does that mean that I can access Shinrarta Dezhra from the Dangerous rank?
More and more questions!
I wish
I think statistical weeding of malicious behavior is not as simple, due to many reasons. agreed, a "obvious" uber griefer might pop up clearly, but I bet most of those griefers seem statistically inconspicuous compared to other PVPers.
as algir so beautifully said "I feel that the rootcause comes from the depths of the system they put on" exactly. unfortunately, as it is right now, I feel the interdiction mechanic is the main issue as it even impedes "proper" roleplaying (e.g., asking a trader to drop their cargo before opening fire. right now, it's interdict and attack on the pirates side, submit boost boost boost wake on the traders side) thing is, I can see why FD did it like this, as we have a cut throat galaxy and you definitely SHOULD be able to interdict anyone you want to. (there comes the faction stuff into play) but this opens all gates to griefing
further on, a high security response would not prevent the initial grief, just avenge it, so just making the AI response vicious wont do any good, as the determined griefer couldn't care less. except the police is jumping on him the second he interdicts, but since the cheating AI is already an issue, I dont think giving them more warping/teleporting capabilities is a good way to go.
I still think implementing a "drop or fight" option will reduce griefing to "annoying" levels, but what I didnt think about were situations where you should be able to interdict without gameplay reasons besides killing the opposing player without giving them a head start (faction wars, power play, RP wars, you name it) furthermore, there'd be still a lot of room for creative abuse if not implemented thought-out. maybe with some kind of combatant flag? as, if you don't want to participate in PVP, you can still get interdicted but get the "trader" mechanic with drop or fight, but can't actively engage/interdict others and if you change your mind, you have to wait 5 mins for the non pvp flag to become a pvp one.
just brainstorming here ^^
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Just a thought: could we get an additional piece of kit for our ships that reports the position of criminals wanted over x number of systems?
I mean, surely the best solution to griefing or 'PvP problems'(not the same thing but I get the notion some would disagree) is a communications network that allows tracking of those considered criminal? This could be a great faction/rank related addition to the KW Scanner for example... a high power consuming(so you need to toggle not passive it) function that allows you to pick up rebroadcast info from Nav Point Beacons, stations and allied power ships. You could go so far as to include known(scanned) slavers and smugglers in this and thus incentivize sneaky smuggling and paying of fines.
PvP is awesome: giving more method to the madness is the way to keep it an enjoyable and manageable part of the game.
I mean, surely the best solution to griefing or 'PvP problems'(not the same thing but I get the notion some would disagree) is a communications network that allows tracking of those considered criminal? This could be a great faction/rank related addition to the KW Scanner for example... a high power consuming(so you need to toggle not passive it) function that allows you to pick up rebroadcast info from Nav Point Beacons, stations and allied power ships. You could go so far as to include known(scanned) slavers and smugglers in this and thus incentivize sneaky smuggling and paying of fines.
PvP is awesome: giving more method to the madness is the way to keep it an enjoyable and manageable part of the game.
I'll rep that one...but I don't recall calling someone a griefer...I said griefing...and that is a description of certain unwanted actions. But in honesty whatever you may want to call someone that purposely causes issue for those that have no desire to interact with them, or for a more general purpose...someone that picks on folks for no reason other than to make their experience far from enjoyable just to do it...this does not include piracy, bounty hunting or any other reasonable cause for action, If for instance im hunting a pc because I want the bounty on him or her...that's fair game...if im blasting someone in a freighter that's clean and I'm not trying to profit from illicit booty...then its just plain meaness....and yup I'm sure there are those types...or I go pick on new folks in starting areas with sidewinders in my kitted python or fdl...there is no reason but to inflict a negative vibe...we don't have to have a professor of quantum mechanics to define this...its basic...always has been...no need to try and read between the lines for deeper meanings...peace all see ya in the black.
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uhhh, nope in the usage of the terms it is exactly that derogatory....but by all means you are entitled to your own thoughts on it, but in the mmo world when reffered to in the manner it was given...yup...its derogatory.
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uhhh, nope in the usage of the terms it is exactly that derogatory....but by all means you are entitled to your own thoughts on it, but in the mmo world when reffered to in the manner it was given...yup...its derogatory.
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ok, i wrote a load, page timed me out, lost everything i wrote, stuff the suggestions etc,
Noting the above post and its quote .. sorry yes, carebear is derogatory, along with noob etc, just because im not a bloodthirsty manical who doesnt pvp all the time doesnt mean im a carebear, its like having long hair and being called a hippie, its derogatory.
The elite community has gone downhill recently, hatred incited by streamers, and a lot of this is because of the differentiation between players and npc's in the game, if players and npc's all showed the same blips on scanners, and all had cmdr prefix, or no prefix at all, npc pirates are kill on sight and take the cargo, so players are thinking thats elite piracy, some players do actually roleplay piracy more along historical piracy, but because of npc attitudes, if its not system authorities its npc's trying to kill you.
The community from what i see is becoming a warzone where the posters view is right, everyone else is wrong, even if thier views are the same, just worded differently there ends up being an argument about it.
Personally i took a few weeks to move house, and came back to streamers and thier fans bickering between eachother, playerfactions are some of the cause, playerfactions in game are groups of players who group under 1 name, that has a representative group of npc's with the same name, they are not actually part of eachothers organisations, so the whole playerfactions idea is basically a lie. In thier devotion to thier faction players have been killing on sight when theres a war and other things alike, other factions whos representatives in the npc's were not in a war state have seen themselves as being griefed, not actually as allies to a state at war. As per usual when players of any game get together they dont all work in a unit, some go off do thier own thing. Now some of these edge groups are doing stuff that brings the name of a faction into disrepute, unfortunately, if a leader member of a faction is deemed to be above all that by her fanbase, other streamers who stream under thier banner are seen as the same, above the ability to commit wrong actions. The fans of these streamers then wander out into other streams, and start with comments about "oh you mean (insert faction), set of griefers and gankers, they should all be banned" or advice to "combat log, it hacks them off" sorry about the language, i am actually quoting things in various chats i have seen said by multiple people, some of which are not even players of the game.
FDevs community leaders really need to interract with community representatives a bit more to try and find out why the community has turned into a toxic cesspit. When saying hi on something like steam chat or skype is now getting to a point where noone wants to speak because you watch XYZ streamer whoflies with XYZ faction, its getting beyond a joke.
Worst point is, some of this may not even be by fans of the game, some of the people who are levelling reports about players and thier actions are people who have voiced no interest in the game, they just wanted to watch something, then when you look in thier twitch accounts they have been playing other space games, and have funded other space games. these people might just be wanting to look out for thier investment, but most people are waiting for all the space games to be released, over than forcing the whole community into 1 single game
edit - 6 attempts to post this thing in the end .... good job on the forums with the time limits etc
Noting the above post and its quote .. sorry yes, carebear is derogatory, along with noob etc, just because im not a bloodthirsty manical who doesnt pvp all the time doesnt mean im a carebear, its like having long hair and being called a hippie, its derogatory.
The elite community has gone downhill recently, hatred incited by streamers, and a lot of this is because of the differentiation between players and npc's in the game, if players and npc's all showed the same blips on scanners, and all had cmdr prefix, or no prefix at all, npc pirates are kill on sight and take the cargo, so players are thinking thats elite piracy, some players do actually roleplay piracy more along historical piracy, but because of npc attitudes, if its not system authorities its npc's trying to kill you.
The community from what i see is becoming a warzone where the posters view is right, everyone else is wrong, even if thier views are the same, just worded differently there ends up being an argument about it.
Personally i took a few weeks to move house, and came back to streamers and thier fans bickering between eachother, playerfactions are some of the cause, playerfactions in game are groups of players who group under 1 name, that has a representative group of npc's with the same name, they are not actually part of eachothers organisations, so the whole playerfactions idea is basically a lie. In thier devotion to thier faction players have been killing on sight when theres a war and other things alike, other factions whos representatives in the npc's were not in a war state have seen themselves as being griefed, not actually as allies to a state at war. As per usual when players of any game get together they dont all work in a unit, some go off do thier own thing. Now some of these edge groups are doing stuff that brings the name of a faction into disrepute, unfortunately, if a leader member of a faction is deemed to be above all that by her fanbase, other streamers who stream under thier banner are seen as the same, above the ability to commit wrong actions. The fans of these streamers then wander out into other streams, and start with comments about "oh you mean (insert faction), set of griefers and gankers, they should all be banned" or advice to "combat log, it hacks them off" sorry about the language, i am actually quoting things in various chats i have seen said by multiple people, some of which are not even players of the game.
FDevs community leaders really need to interract with community representatives a bit more to try and find out why the community has turned into a toxic cesspit. When saying hi on something like steam chat or skype is now getting to a point where noone wants to speak because you watch XYZ streamer whoflies with XYZ faction, its getting beyond a joke.
Worst point is, some of this may not even be by fans of the game, some of the people who are levelling reports about players and thier actions are people who have voiced no interest in the game, they just wanted to watch something, then when you look in thier twitch accounts they have been playing other space games, and have funded other space games. these people might just be wanting to look out for thier investment, but most people are waiting for all the space games to be released, over than forcing the whole community into 1 single game
edit - 6 attempts to post this thing in the end .... good job on the forums with the time limits etc
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The major source of conflict in the community is between those who want the game played in Open and those who wish to play in solo/pg, between those who want to play the game in a dynanmic, emergent, and spontaneous manner and those who wish to be anti social and play segregated. Its always been the case but ultimately the responsibility here sits with FD. It is their system by design and its problematic.
With that said historically I think you'll find that much of the hate, anger and spite has come from the PvE collective. I have simply lost count of the number of threads crying griefer and using pejorative terms to label one style of play. That by the way is apparently acceptable on this board. So there is a deep sense of injustice felt because I think its fair to say the narrative allowed here is biased to a certain extent.
Over time I think people got sick to death of being maligned and negatively characterised and have started to argue back. Its somewhat amusing to me that after being called all the names under the sun players who like a bit of PvP get instantly hammered if they counter 'griefer' with 'carebear'. Believe me there are a lot worse terms that could be used.
I'd be more than happy to not use pejorative terms myself and I'll do that the moment I stop hearing people wail about 'griefers'. Needless to say I won't hold my breath.
As for the community I think in general despite the conflict its not a bad one. Particuarly demonstrated in the way almost everyone jumps to help out new players and offer advice. So its not the picture you paint and my advice in general would be for people to chill out a little, and lighten up over these percieved offenses. At the end of the day its just a bit of fun. So what if a few people have their ships blown up. Its not the end of the world in a galaxy set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays, is it?
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The major source of conflict in the community is between those who want the game played in Open and those who wish to play in solo/pg, between those who want to play the game in a dynanmic, emergent, and spontaneous manner and those who wish to be anti social and play segregated. Its always been the case but ultimately the responsibility here sits with FD. It is their system by design and its problematic.
With that said historically I think you'll find that much of the hate, anger and spite has come from the PvE collective. I have simply lost count of the number of threads crying griefer and using pejorative terms to label one style of play. That by the way is apparently acceptable on this board. So there is a deep sense of injustice felt because I think its fair to say the narrative allowed here is biased to a certain extent.
Over time I think people got sick to death of being maligned and negatively characterised and have started to argue back. Its somewhat amusing to me that after being called all the names under the sun players who like a bit of PvP get instantly hammered if they counter 'griefer' with 'carebear'. Believe me there are a lot worse terms that could be used.
I'd be more than happy to not use pejorative terms myself and I'll do that the moment I stop hearing people wail about 'griefers'. Needless to say I won't hold my breath.
As for the community I think in general despite the conflict its not a bad one. Particuarly demonstrated in the way almost everyone jumps to help out new players and offer advice. So its not the picture you paint and my advice in general would be for people to chill out a little, and lighten up over these percieved offenses. At the end of the day its just a bit of fun. So what if a few people have their ships blown up. Its not the end of the world in a galaxy set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays, is it?
Even some of the folks from frontier have admitted that the forums are a PvE centered environment and talking about PvP on the forums will lead to hate towards even them. The issue is very simple really. We live in an entitlement society and when things don't go the way that someone would like it to, they go looking for the support of whoever has more power than them. Unfortunately, this means people think that they are entitled to have their opinion and ONLY their opinion heard and that anyone who does something they don't like should be punished for it.
On the whole, there is a huge aura of hypocrisy on these forums. Many anti-pvp players (notice I say anti-pvp and not pve because there are a lot of pve players that are very logical and understanding) have been insulting and naming anyone that kills them on here and on reddit and people crowd around them and say they're brave for posting and the "griefers" should be banned but those same people will call you an awful person for posting combat loggers on reddit.
At the end of the day there are a lot of generalizations floating around and a lot of people refuse to understand that everyone is an individual and has their own views and these views should be portrayed and viewed in a respectful manner. If you can't have an argument without it getting heated or names being called, perhaps you shouldn't post on threads that involve discussions.
As for the namecalling that takes place, people always seem to get up in arms when someone is called a carebear but they fail to realize that when you kill other players for fun in a game that openly advertised that as an occupation, you receive plenty of name calling from others and most people don't go about complaining.
Overall, there is a severe lack of perspective on the forums. Many people believe that they are right and they are passionate about their opinion which is good to an extent. However, if these people are not willing to take a step back and look at these situations from another perspective, the community as a whole will stay at the current levels of toxicity and tension between the massively divided community. I'll admit I've been wrong many times on these forums and I'm sure I'll post things that are wrong again in the future but if you honestly think that you haven't made mistakes and think you've always been right, perhaps you should re-evaluate your approach to not only this community, but to your relationships with others. There's no such thing as "my favorite condescending friend". Anyways, this is off on a tangent now. I urge anyone reading this to take a step back and think if they could benefit from trying to approach situations in a more neutral manner.
Note: Anywhere I said you it was to the reader not to you Cosmos, I quite liked your unbiased approach and hope to see others follow suit.
Fixed that for you. Which is the fundamental problem. I'm not sure hunting human players down was the idea behind letting folk know the difference but to allow more social interaction - to use the chat because you know it's not an NPC