Targeting sub-modules ... what's the point ?

[Jex =TE=]

The whole sub targets is crap in my opinion. External weapons should get damaged much more easily than internal things behind armor.

I love the idea of it except ED have implemented it incredibly poorly. It doesn't even make any sense. If you're hitting these systems then you're breaching the hull aren't you - so what's going on inside the ships? In a universe where every single pilot targets the PP, why aren't the ship builders doing something about their ships to stop this?

The ridiculously simple mechanics in ED are to blame. There could have been more of a game to the scanners - you can't just target subsystems you have to use your scanner and find the subsystem on the ship first, none of this auto-crap that FD love so much (i.e. playing the game for you).

Then you could have the other ships pilot trying to stop you from scanning his ship and countering your scan. On a multicrew ship, this would be a lot easier as you would have a dedicated engineer, a dedicated pilot etc.

If everyone always targets the PP then it makes the rest of the ship pointless because you're not going to shoot at it. You might do for some variation because you're bored but really, if you're up against a competent foe you're going to target the PP every time.

So FD changed the mechanic so it doesn't kill the ship any longer - it just completely disables it.....

So we're still at exactly the same conclusion then - everyone targeting the PP only the ship doesn't blow up right away.

 

[YinYin]

In a universe where every single pilot targets the PP, why aren't the ship builders doing something about their ships to stop this?

They are. The power plants are commonly deep inside the centre of the hull and are thus the hardest internal module to hit. Also I'm sure a B power plant will last long enough to make sniping it pointless.

There could have been more of a game to the scanners - you can't just target subsystems you have to use your scanner and find the subsystem on the ship first, none of this auto-crap that FD love so much (i.e. playing the game for you).

Sub target selecting and chaff does exactly what you ask for. Scrolling to the sub target you want takes time - chaff will stop you from hitting it or require you to know where it is - target it manually - and then reselect it as a sub target once the chaff ends. Anything more complex would be rather frustrating in a heated battle. Nothing here is playing the game for you. You still have to select things manually or know their position - and on top of that fine tune your own position to do enough damage to it (not gonna properly damage a sub system that is on the other side of your target).

 

[Crook]

It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters.

Shut your mouth kid, or you'll find yourself floating home.

 

[anikaiful]

I target FSDs first and foremost - easier to hit than PP by far, and my prey can't run when it fails. But ships smaller than 'conda or a python or clipper, I don't bother with subsystems - their hull breaks up before the sub does.

 

[YinYin]

I target FSDs first and foremost - easier to hit than PP by far, and my prey can't run when it fails. But ships smaller than 'conda or a python, I don't bother with subsystems - their hull breaks up before the sub does.

Got experience on which ships this works best?
For me the thrusters usually give away faster than the FSD and without those they can't jump either.

 

[tomalus]

Its preety much useless to target Powerplant on everything except armoured anacondas in CZ or FAS tank specced players.

The whole module targeting was useless before besides PP,now its even worse. Maybe for a small ship its ok to destroy someones shield generator but thats very far fetched.

 

[Jex =TE=]

They are. The power plants are commonly deep inside the centre of the hull and are thus the hardest internal module to hit. Also I'm sure a B power plant will last long enough to make sniping it pointless.
Sub target selecting and chaff does exactly what you ask for. Scrolling to the sub target you want takes time - chaff will stop you from hitting it or require you to know where it is - target it manually - and then reselect it as a sub target once the chaff ends. Anything more complex would be rather frustrating in a heated battle. Nothing here is playing the game for you. You still have to select things manually or know their position - and on top of that fine tune your own position to do enough damage to it (not gonna properly damage a sub system that is on the other side of your target).

It does exactly what I'm asking for? You must have not read what I wrote then and it takes seconds to subtarget though yeah, I suppose pressing the Y key a few times is really hard. Anything more complex than that surely would be frustrating

- - - Updated - - -

Shut your mouth kid, or you'll find yourself floating home.

Hey!

Don't get cocky!

 

[YinYin]

It does exactly what I'm asking for? You must have not read what I wrote then and it takes seconds to subtarget though yeah, I suppose pressing the Y key a few times is really hard. Anything more complex than that surely would be frustrating

Well, I meant there is quite a lot of game to it already. Sure you are asking for more - but you also seem to dismiss everything there is as "auto-crap playing the game for you". Which simply isn't true.

Time is very precious in a fight and controls should better be efficient than difficult/hard. And the more you spend not hitting the intended target the less viable sub targeting becomes (you already deal damage to the hull or take too much damage yourself).
I'm curious what hurdles in detail you would like to put up for sub targeting - and would you force them onto players or would you still allow sub targets to be hit manually (if the pilot simply knows where it is located).
I would not like some scanning mechanics to prevent me from simply hitting the spot that I know covers the sub target.
I would also not like targeting mechanics to become a longer/more difficult process as that would basically force me to learn and remember sub targets per ship and never use the actual targeting mechanic in a real fight.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

As of 1.4 this no longer works. Take a PP down to 0% and the power output is reduced to 50%. This applies to your ship as well. Only taking a ship to 0% results in an explosion or a really lucky shot.

Actually 1.4 made it where it has a small chance of blowing up when you take the PP to 0%. NullAndVoid is right though as I have seen this to be the case and had a ship blow with plenty of hull left as I kept shooting the PP after.

 

[Jex =TE=]

Well, I meant there is quite a lot of game to it already. Sure you are asking for more - but you also seem to dismiss everything there is as "auto-crap playing the game for you". Which simply isn't true.

Time is very precious in a fight and controls should better be efficient than difficult/hard. And the more you spend not hitting the intended target the less viable sub targeting becomes (you already deal damage to the hull or take too much damage yourself).
I'm curious what hurdles in detail you would like to put up for sub targeting - and would you force them onto players or would you still allow sub targets to be hit manually (if the pilot simply knows where it is located).
I would not like some scanning mechanics to prevent me from simply hitting the spot that I know covers the sub target.
I would also not like targeting mechanics to become a longer/more difficult process as that would basically force me to learn and remember sub targets per ship and never use the actual targeting mechanic in a real fight.

Fights take ages, what game are you playing?

The game plays everything for you. Targeting, self aim lasers, KWS, ADS, everything is hold down a button.

As for the actual mechanic - I think the whole system needs to be reworked tbh. Like I said, when everyone is targeting the PP it makes everything else on the ship pointless.

I don't understand how FD made it like this as sub-targeting would obviously be used only on the PP (unless ur pirating). Also, I'm assuming I'm penetrating the hull since I'm hitting the PP so what's going on with the hull breach? I'm assuming the hull over the PP is now at 0%? Does that mean once the hull is at 0% overall, there's literally no hull left? How does a ship even operate with 17% hull? Why can you never damage the guns?

You have to start with the ships first and how you work their armour and damage to something that makes sense.

 

[YinYin]

Fights take ages, what game are you playing?

I think we may need to settle on a more accurate time scale than ages. The tougher and larger npcs go down rather quickly in my experience unless I happen to let them slip their SCBs through.

The game plays everything for you. Targeting, self aim lasers, KWS, ADS, everything is hold down a button.

Here is some insight on all that:
you can heavily bother all the aim assists by flying badly. Wobble a little and gimbals will miss a lot more. Turn a degree too far and a turret will try to rotate itself all the way around. On beams you can try to only shoot when your assisted aiming is actually on target and not wobbling way beside it. Scanning an elite eagle who turns circles around you and chaffs whenever you have him in your sights long enough can be quite tricky (hold for a long time and keep target in sights without them deploying any countermeasures - a bit more than hold down a button). I understand your view, but you can still optimize and exert a lot of skill through these systems. If you feel that's all just lazy button holding I'd fear you may arrive at the same conclusion with other mechanics.

As for the actual mechanic - I think the whole system needs to be reworked tbh. Like I said, when everyone is targeting the PP it makes everything else on the ship pointless.

That's only because the majority only attacks random ships to get some bounty. They have little commitment to getting their target or any other objective besides blowing it up quickly. Without more emphasis on differing objectives there is no use in changing what we have.
Besides that, when I do assassination missions I always go for the drives, because they are exposed, go down faster than the power plant and my target won't be able to flee any more.
I have also successfully made ships flee by taking out their life support systems when I was mining with a wanted status and didn't want to be chased off from my precious painite rock or further increase my bounty.

I don't understand how FD made it like this as sub-targeting would obviously be used only on the PP (unless ur pirating). Also, I'm assuming I'm penetrating the hull since I'm hitting the PP so what's going on with the hull breach? I'm assuming the hull over the PP is now at 0%? Does that mean once the hull is at 0% overall, there's literally no hull left? How does a ship even operate with 17% hull? Why can you never damage the guns?

I don't think module slot spaces are pressurized in any way. A few holes in the hull there don't really make too much of a difference at first. Only once the hull cannot keep your ship together any more (0%) you get a problem. Mostly keeping your fuel tank away from the fusion reactor as it seems to just blow off with whatever else is left in your ship ...
The blowing up at 0% hull isn't the best part I gotta agree. Would prefer disabled ship husks floating around (still leaving the possibility of blowing things up via the power plant).

edit: and you can damage the guns, they become useless laser pointers when malfunctioning. They are just so damn small targets.

 

[Bacalao]

Next time just get his hull down to 17%, leave his modules alone and then float there for 5 minutes, return and report on how that works for ya.

 

[jonny taco]

Actually 1.4 made it where it has a small chance of blowing up when you take the PP to 0%. NullAndVoid is right though as I have seen this to be the case and had a ship blow with plenty of hull left as I kept shooting the PP after.

keep shooting a ships pp when it's at 0% and it will eventually blow up. Condas often go down after 5 good shots from dual c3 pulse to their 0% pp.

 

[Serpentis Ictis]

Take out the drives in an asteroid field, 2 things happen, they cant get away so you can stay in the safe zone to finish them off, or, they drift helplessly into an asteroid.

 

[DJ]

I don't understand how FD made it like this as sub-targeting would obviously be used only on the PP (unless ur pirating).

Without the sub-targetting computer I wouldn't know whether to take them on or let 'em be.

I see it a streamlined way to view their armaments and defences rather than a targetting mechanism for targettings sake.

(except for PP/cargo-hatch/FSD as you say.)

 

[Ydiss]

I only came back to the game last week after a break and the changes to the power plant are good (it was silly before). That said, I still think more can be done to make module targeting a useful aspect to combat. As it is now, it's still pointless to target anything other than the power plant if you're looking to destroy your target efficiently.

As mentioned above, it should be much easier to critically damage or destroy non critical modules (weapons, capacitor) and much more common to cause critical modules to malfunction, rather than outright destruction.

Being able to hit thrusters to permanently reduce speed, but not destroy them unless you focus on them for much longer than needed to destroy the ship, would be a useful mechanic.

Being able to disable weapons relatively quickly, but not permanently, would also be good. It would introduce more involved ways to disable a strong target and increase your chance of success.

Disabling a module should have a chance to happen after 25% damage is caused.

To enhance this further, I think there should be such a thing as module shielding, besides the class endurance statistic. If a module is disabled (as I said, this should be easier to achieve for several non essential components) then it draws power from systems, engines or weapons, depending on the module, to prevent damage for a short time. And your ship's computer should assign power based on priority settings.

Any power taken from system reduces the power for shields and weapons from weapons, drive and FSD from engines, obviously. The knock on effect being that your opponent must target something else but your ship performs less effectively overall until the shielding resets.

The power plant would be a good candidate but if you force it to be shielded, your target only loses power from systems. And then you must target something else for a short while.

If you target the drive or weapons, however, the target loses power to engine or weapons when those modules get shielded. A wing could disable a weapon and the drive on an anaconda, in a wing on wing fight, then focus on the weaker ships while the anacondas shielding resets, for example. This would be an actual tactic that would work, instead of what we have now (target power plant, out-dps the enemy, switch to next target).

I just think so much more could have been done with module targeting.

 

[YinYin]

Being able to hit thrusters to permanently reduce speed, but not destroy them unless you focus on them for much longer than needed to destroy the ship, would be a useful mechanic.

Similar to the distributor they start to give out random directional thrusts when malfunctioning (before dropping to 0%).

I just think so much more could have been done with module targeting.

I think ya'll need to fight shield less with repair units for some time to discover all the different possible module malfunctions that already can happen

 

[Ydiss]

Similar to the distributor they start to give out random directional thrusts when malfunctioning (before dropping to 0%).

I think ya'll need to fight shield less with repair units for some time to discover all the different possible module malfunctions that already can happen

I don't think you got the main point I was making. I know malfunction happen now. But who is making them happen through deliberate targeting? Module damage currently happens through random chance because no one in their right mind targets anything other than the power plant because it's still the most efficient way to destroy medium to large targets.

I'm taking about making it work so that this is no longer the case, so that malfunctions occur more because of deliberate actions, that the result of this is that it brings in more tactics, particularly in wing play.

 

[Bacalao]

As it is now, it's still pointless to target anything other than the power plant if you're looking to destroy your target efficiently.

As mentioned above, it should be much easier to critically damage or destroy non critical modules (weapons, capacitor) and much more common to cause critical modules to malfunction, rather than outright destruction.

Maybe it is just my flight/combat style but I find it much faster to take out an FSD than a power plant, which is very useful when you're fighting quicker ships that might flee otherwise. I've taken out a lot of clipper FSDs with 10% hull that were charging and was able to finish them off just before they get out of range. Thrusters are also much easier to hit on a fleeing ship (obviously) than a power plant. As soon as a ship turns tail to run (depending on the ship, especially anacondas), I go for the thrusters straight away. With other, very small modules (weapons/utility mounts) I can see it becoming more an issue of hitting that small target rather than health, I'm not sure if gimballing gets more accurate against overheating weapons, that would be interesting.

 

[YinYin]

I don't think you got the main point I was making. I know malfunction happen now. But who is making them happen through deliberate targeting? Module damage currently happens through random chance because no one in their right mind targets anything other than the power plant because it's still the most efficient way to destroy medium to large targets.

Well, there is a reason to that. Frontier has stated before that they had to balance accuracy (satisfying for the attacker) versus random impact (manageable for the defender) - and this is what they ended up with so far.
Also as I mentioned before: we simply don't have enough incentives besides stopping (thrusters) or blowing up a ship (power plant) in your everyday combat.
Once these are more common you might discover that other sub targets are viable for whatever else you want to do to your target.

I'm taking about making it work so that this is no longer the case, so that malfunctions occur more because of deliberate actions, that the result of this is that it brings in more tactics, particularly in wing play.

I'm with you. Perhaps we will see that with the larger dedicated fighters coming along (cutter/corvette).
Facing off against one of those in a wing it may be a good idea to take out some of the larger turrets.

Maybe it is just my flight/combat style but I find it much faster to take out an FSD than a power plant, which is very useful when you're fighting quicker ships that might flee otherwise.

Certainly your style and target types. Since modules are located at different positions inside the hulls and depending on the angle you shoot at them you may do more or less damage and/or distribute the damage on other modules that were in the way. I myself have a lot of trouble taking out FSDs and thus always go for thrusters instead.