Telepresence is not necessary.

[akaliel]

I think this comment is very telling.

Do you actually LIKE the core ED game?

I ask because if i logged into EVE or DOTA2, i really dont like them. I am sure i could come up with all sorts of reasons why improvments would make the game better to me...... But should people who dislike the game as it stands now be the people FD are balancing the game for?

This is a genuine question and i am not trying to put words in peoples mouths, it just worries me that there are a number of people coming accross like MC is the 1st bit of fun in the game........ Honestly after a few hrs of pew pew IF you do not like the rest of the game would what we have in 2.3 win you over... Or will you still put the game down? Because the risk is ultimately no one gets what they want.

Just a thought. I am done arguing with folk 2.3 is what it is

Elite has more potential to be a great game than any game I've ever played. It's so close. It has the framework for that space game I always wanted to play. But that's all it is. A Framework. The stuff is coming in. I like what I've been seeing from them. It's just happening. So. Damn. Slowly. I. Could. Lose. My. Mind.

I had a lot of fun early on bouncing around the galaxy, taking missions, exploring around, saving up for my Anaconda and engineering it. But let's face it, it's still a relatively empty game. Once you have that ship you were aiming for, things slow down. The most enjoyable task you can do is Bounty hunting. But really, it's just farming. You're not hunting anything. You sit there blowing up everything until one of two things happens, you run out of ammo or you get bored. We should have to search for a target, chase them, lay in wait, trap them, ambush them. Instead when bounty hunting with a friend all we have is <click> "Oh there's one, he's worth 80K?" "Naa, how about this other guy. He's 100." "Enh, Anaconda... that'll take an extra minute." "Oh .... Viper for 90K?" "Sure".

I want Elite to be great. I want more fun to be had. I believe it can be. Steps are being made, but as is I spend more time browsing the forums than playing the game.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no issues with this, provided it's 'realistic': ie crew would have to be at the same station, so say I offered being a tail gunner over the ED subspace radio or text to another Cmdr, I would have to physically fly my ship to their docked station, select "Board Cmdr Joe Blow's [insert ship du jour]", and away we go, leaving my ship in the hangar. You could even take a buggy to someon'es surface landed ship and board it that way (Why does that remind me of "Rescue On Fractalus!"?)

You'll be disappointed then. You don't have to be at the same station. No tail gunner's either.

 

[akaliel]

Transporter would probably require some kind of range limit. Same system at the most (ignoring JJ's transwarp transporting he later regretted).

And yes, sure, magic, I don't care what anyone else calls it.

 

[Bobbydylan]

Of course!... You said:



The distinction between "you" as your in-game avatar and "you" as your real-world player of said in-game avatar, is a distinction that only matters in the minds of those immersion/lore/consistency-purists any change would be trying to appease.

And if you actually subscribe to the group who cares so much about "immersion", in it's most literal sense, then your in-game avatar and the real-life "you" playing him, should be one and the same shouldn't they?

Meaning, FDev throwing away likely literal man-months of work to re-design the MC mechanic for instant teleporting NPC crew members, for the sake of something that amounts to more or less the same thing... except from a "game" point of view, it denies those players who care about it, the ability to show off their own in-game avatars to their friends that they've spent real-life cash playing dress-up on.

No, my Commander Bobbydylan is not the character who goes over the top in BF1, nor is he the character who commands armies in Command and conquer. If I owned a second account, that account would have a different name and be a different character. This is no Different.

As for showing off their face, why can this not be a thing? Simply have the NPC crew wear the darkened helmet when not controlled, and have the helmet lower to show the face of the guy who's playing as him.

Sure it is!.. Just see how easily you're contradicting yourself... If something can be acceptably unrealistic along a continuous scale, it means it isn't binary, thus it follows that it also can be acceptably realistic along that same scale. It only depends on your frame of reference. It's entirely subjective.

Also, if telepresence for a specific function is possible in a world and purely remote piloting is not possible because of some in-world restriction prohibiting it, then that would in theory clear up any sense of said world being unrealistic or inconsistent, because just like in the real world, the rules and laws dictating a certain action in one domain aren't equal across all domains.

This is only in theory, however, and the reality is that some people would still claim the above mentioned world to be unrealistic or unbelievable, because belief is inherently subjective and can also be entirely independent of facts and objective empiracal observations... see religion, consipiracy theories and people's belief in the supernatural.

Heck, even accepted factual phenomena, like some stuff in quantum mechanics, appears unrealistic and unbelievable to many at first glance. It's people's ability to defer to the authority of clever physicists that lets them accept those things as fact, despite the appearance of them sounding like to the casual observer on the surface.

I don't think any fan of sci-fi can (with a straight face) tout the "realism" argument. The problem with Telepresance isn't that it's unrealistic, its that it raises too many other questions.
Why can't I remote control a ship from across the galaxy? Why can't I get trade data from the next system over. Why can't I transmit my exportation data before I die? Why would anyone pay me millions of credits to them to a beacon they can TP themselves to? Why is there a hologram in the chair? How does it push the levers and buttons? Why would anyone pay to carry data that can be telepresenced over? If data can be intercepted, and hacked, why can't remote gunner control? Why can my fighter only move 20 km from my ship but I can control your turrets from Beagle Point?

Sure you can come up with some head-lore to explain a few of these things, but the fundamental issue I have with telepresence is that it's such a "useful" tech that I don't believe manned spaceflight would be a thing if it existed. Not manned exploration and certainly not manned space combat.
Telepresence breaks the core appeal of this game, being a space pilot.

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

I don't think any fan of sci-fi can (with a straight face) tout the "realism" argument. The problem with Telepresance isn't that it's unrealistic, its that it raises too many other questions.
Why can't I remote control a ship from across the galaxy? Why can't I get trade data from the next system over. Why can't I transmit my exportation data before I die? Why would anyone pay me millions of credits to them to a beacon they can TP themselves to? Why is there a hologram in the chair? How does it push the levers and buttons? Why would anyone pay to carry data that can be telepresenced over? If data can be intercepted, and hacked, why can't remote gunner control? Why can my fighter only move 20 km from my ship but I can control your turrets from Beagle Point?

Sure you can come up with some head-lore to explain a few of these things, but the fundamental issue I have with telepresence is that it's such a "useful" tech that I don't believe manned spaceflight would be a thing if it existed. Not manned exploration and certainly not manned space combat.
Telepresence breaks the core appeal of this game, being a space pilot.

You're absolutely right. Realism isn't the issue with the "telepresence" explanation, it's the gaping holes in the lore it introduces, holes that require ever more rediculous explanation to fill in order to make it all fit together.

It's a rabbit hole... one that FDev needn't have gone down in the first place if they realised that for the current implementation of MC, there was no need for an explanation.

Perhaps, when space legs arrive, and the more immersive solution is ready, they can offer a lore explanation for that. But for the existing iteration, that's simply designed around getting the feature out there in a quick and easily accessible way, they just didn't need to offer any more explanation than that.

 

[Bobbydylan]

You're absolutely right. Realism isn't the issue with the "telepresence" explanation, it's the gaping holes in the lore it introduces, holes that require ever more rediculous explanation to fill in order to make it all fit together.

It's a rabbit hole... one that FDev needn't have gone down in the first place if they realised that for the current implementation of MC, there was no need for an explanation.

Perhaps, when space legs arrive, and the more immersive solution is ready, they can offer a lore explanation for that. But for the existing iteration, that's simply designed around getting the feature out there in a quick and easily accessible way, they just didn't need to offer any more explanation than that.

Yeah. I mean, I'd personally have preferred that they not explain it at all. I'd rather have Schrodinger's Crew-member than Telepresance. And I'd rather have NPC crew control than either.

 

[Gimi]

Been on the fence with the whole telepresence thing for a while now. As described it just didn't fit right.
So yesterday I decided to jump into beta and check it out.

For me, where I am in game when going into multi crew matters it seems. (Yes, it's a bit irrational).

When docked, no issues. Just like taking on a mission.
While in flight, super-cruise or normal space. Nope, that didn't sit well with me at all.
While landed on a planet. Not quite as bad as when in flight, but felt awkward. I can accept it though.

Conclusion based on my personal opinions and irrational feelings of immersion , I can work with what we have, but I'll probably chose to secure my own ship before entering multi-crew, just for peace of mind.

 

[william1134]

I see no problem with Telepresence at all.

Why can't we have some kind of quantum entanglement working for instantaneous information transfer?

Who is to say that we don't have one of these in every ship so our galnet/bounty stuff works... why would this be any different to receiving information for getting the hologram working..

 

[Bobbydylan]

I see no problem with Telepresence at all.

Why can't we have some kind of quantum entanglement working for instantaneous information transfer?

Who is to say that we don't have one of these in every ship so our galnet/bounty stuff works... why would this be any different to receiving information for getting the hologram working..

Why can't I remote control a ship from across the galaxy? Why can't I get trade data from the next system over. Why can't I transmit my exportation data before I die? Why would anyone pay me millions of credits to them to a beacon they can TP themselves to? Why is there a hologram in the chair? How does it push the levers and buttons? Why would anyone pay to carry data that can be telepresenced over? If data can be intercepted, and hacked, why can't remote gunner control? Why can my fighter only move 20 km from my ship but I can control your turrets from Beagle Point?

Sure you can come up with some head-lore to explain a few of these things, but the fundamental issue I have with telepresence is that it's such a "useful" tech that I don't believe manned spaceflight would be a thing if it existed. Not manned exploration and certainly not manned space combat.
Telepresence breaks the core appeal of this game, being a space pilot.

5char

 

[Magic Man]

I see no problem with Telepresence at all.

Then you have no understanding of the game at all. Read the thread or the summary above.

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

Then you have no understanding of the game at all. Read the thread or the summary above.

Now now, why don't we all play nice. Keep it civil at least.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Not a fan of that lore-killing "Telepresence" - since it doesn't add up with tons of other Game Elements at all.

If they're going to go "full " on the "Instant Action" theme, they might as well let Players temporarily "Telepresence" their Ships into Wings at anytime/anyplace. Same deal, same lore-killing idea.

ELITE : Teletubbies
...coming to an Arcade Console platform near you soon(tm)

 

[Bobbydylan]

Now now, why don't we all play nice. Keep it civil at least.

Can;t rep you again, but well said, more of this kind of thing!

 

[Genxav]

Not a fan of that lore-killing "Telepresence" - since it doesn't add up with tons of other Game Elements at all.

If they're going to go "full " on the "Instant Action" theme, they might as well let Players temporarily "Telepresence" their Ships into Wings at anytime/anyplace. Same deal, same lore-killing idea.

ELITE : Teletubbies
...coming to an Arcade Console platform near you soon(tm)

once again if they are going full lets just use what other sci-fi uses - Teleportation or ala EVE Temporary Clones
because telepresence means that all the limitations imposed are now mute

With a transporter room like StarTrek you can be lets say anywhere but only at one place at the time. and you can telepresence yourself when people are beyond the bubble.

Like internet relay towers , you can teleport anywhere near the bubble or the bubble but only tele-presence spectate or some sort of minimal interaction when the other pilot is beyond human space. Keep it instant, keep it simple and makes a little more sense

 

[[VR] Goooost]

when i look around my clippers huge cockpit with the 2nd chair thats always empty and the side panels with placeholder info and sitting stations i just think......Well its like taking a bus to work instead of my car, it feels kinda ridiculous to be in ships the size of football fields with just 1 person on board.

I think about it like star trek. The assumption is that there are something like 200 crew onboard the ship, but we only ever see story lines involving 20 or so. I assume every ship has crew, dutifully doing their jobs in such a way that their efforts to conduct your commands are seamless. You have people that deal with their personal issues, and their pay is automatically factored into your mission contracts. The lore confirms that an anaconda has up to 40 people on board. While I hope that one day the ships will be busier, it doesn't hold me back from pretending that they already are.

 

[krylite]

Interesting, I tend to think the imperial and federation cruisers as more like Star Trek "naval" vessels usually with hundreds of crew members. And for player ships in ED, I tend to think they are more like private and commercial ships and don't need many crew. They remind me more of the ships in the Alien movies. Lambert was the main pilot of the Nostromo which was about 2/3rd bigger than an Anaconda. In Aliens, Ripley programmed the Sulaco to head back to Earth at the end. The Prometheus seemed to have two pilots and the captain. The Covenant seems similar from the trailer. As for the anaconda, corvette and cutter in ED, I tend to think they could carry a score of passengers but the main crew don't need to number more than a few people. Lorewise it followed that in FFE the Turner ships needed only one pilot so that 50 years later, ED crew requirements could be condensed from the 2 to 10 we saw in FFE among the regular ships to what we see today.

When spacelegs is implemented, I hope FDev gets rid of the idea of holo-me and telepresence and replace it with a physical alternative, maybe something like this. Players can board a megaship (either in person, or dock their ship in the megaship), making routes around a portion of the galaxy like train or bus routes. Make it so they can jump a hundred or so LY per jump. GalNet or the multicrew bulletinboard can show "timetables" so players can time it to meet up with another player ship at a megaship station system. There could be longer range megaships able to travel 1k LY in a jump, maybe making a few jumps before it has to refuel for a day or overnight. Anyways, some kind of physical system rather than telepresence that works with spacelegs or other new features by then.

 

[space pilot]

When spacelegs is implemented, I hope FDev gets rid of the idea of holo-me and telepresence...

It's Pandora's box. Once telepresence goes in, they'll never require meeting at one location.

 

[krylite]

It's Pandora's box. Once telepresence goes in, they'll never require meeting at one location.

They could still do some kind of compromise assuming spacelegs and a ton of other features get done. Using the bulletinboard, a player could then walk to a station "terminal" area for passenger megaships. The game "fades out" for the player and the time in transition takes similar time to transport of modules or ships as we have currently. Then they appear in the airlock/terminal section of the station the hosting ship is docked at and make their way to the host ship. At least have a little walking with spacelegs even if the passenger lines trip is assumed with the transition times, which would be more fun and look similar enough to how Star Citizen shows how players make their way to their ships in the spacedocks.

 

[Alex Merion-Turner]

One could have NPC crewmen sitting in seats that you have to employ like you did in FFE. Although someone will have to design out the pain you used to have to go through to get the correct number of crew members when you move up a ship.

Then whenever you fly you've got your NPC crew with you.

Then for multicore when you connect to someone's ship you are just becoming that crew member.

Of course that has problems.

It's not as fun, you don't see the holo-me that your friends have created, they don't have the names you know, you have to keep remembering which friend is which NPC.

And there's no real lore explanation for what's happening from your friends point of view. THey are in their ship, now they are in someone elses and are someone else? Sounds pants.

For verisimilitude you'd have to move multicrew options out to the main menu so it's not actually your character doing it? A bit like CQC feels like.

There's no happy medium I can easily see here. But then I'm not a game designer, but a UX designer, similar but not a game designer, all though this is a user experience topic in some ways.

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

It's Pandora's box. Once telepresence goes in, they'll never require meeting at one location.

I don't think that's true at all. I don't think there's some unwritten rule that once you implement a feature in a certain way, you can't retroactively change the way that feature works later on down the line.

Look at the engineers for example. At first the drop rates were horrid, the recipes rediculous, and commodity items were also needed for some or most of the mods. Today the entire system works differently, and in particular, engineer commodities were specifically removed as a temporary fix until some kind of commodity storage solution was ready.

Telepresence for instant action MC is simply to let players experience MC quickly and have their fill until the novelty wears off. Once it does, FDev can swap it out for a more immersive option later, once they have an acceptable system in place to replace it that provides better gameplay value. I doubt many players would protest to changes to the MC works once space legs are here, as long as the changes to MC make sense in the greater context of the new gameplay mechanics being added.

I think it's a little limiting to think "once a feature goes in it can't be changed". That mindset is, imho, the cause of a lot of the aggro of a lot of players who are looking for a better implementation and longer-term features overall. If FDev thought that way, even the piddly-content updates we get now would be stripped down, until the better fuller versions of those features were ready to be delivered much later on in the dev schedule.

I'd much rather FDev give us "cut-corners" versions of stuff to play around with now, while they work on the better features long-term, than nothing now and a promise of epicness in a few years (*cough* Star Citizen *cough*).

 

[space pilot]

I don't think that's true at all. I don't think there's some unwritten rule that once you implement a feature in a certain way, you can't retroactively change the way that feature works later on down the line.

Look at the engineers for example. At first the drop rates were horrid, the recipes rediculous, and commodity items were also needed for some or most of the mods. Today the entire system works differently, and in particular, engineer commodities were specifically removed as a temporary fix until some kind of commodity storage solution was ready...

In the example you give there, changes were made to make it easier for players to accomplish their goals, not harder. If there's actually a large base of players using multicrew at some point in the future, and it's changed to require meeting at one location, there will be a substantial backlash. Furthermore, once telepresence is implemented, the motivation to come up with an alternative drops off a cliff. It goes from choosing between X and Y to having to choose to replace X with Y.