The "average players" piloting skills = ROTFL!

[Privata]

I agree, and am going to add on to this, in anticipation of the backlash I expect you'll get:

Harder to kill doesn't mean kills you easier. Those are two different things. The AI needs some self-preservation skills.

(Apologies if that wasn't your intent, but I still think it's true. )

I agree , I think that the AI is fine.
I did trading last night a bit and I am wanted in 2 systems owned by the feds , so they kept sending bounty hunters after me , was not an issue just had to avoit interdiction and if that went south subit and boost out.

During combat I feel they let us get out fine.

I dont mind low levels being easy , but elites should be insane.

 

[BlackSpaceCowboy]

Unfortunately OP, you're making some assumptions that people are not trying to improve or adapt. I really held off passing judgement on the new AI, and for a while, i thought I was getting the hang of it. Yeah, died a few times, but i think those were due to the OP weapons some of the NPCs got.

I can fly FA Off, i do pip management, but i'm afraid, i'm at my max skill level after playing since launch. There is no further git gud available to me. I'm as git gid as i'm going to get. We all have our skill limits, and the AI has surpassed mine.

Will be giving the NPCs a try out tonight after the patch. Hopefully its now on average at a level where I can go 10 minutes without dying.

Have you tried CQC matches?

 

[Cheops1975]

I agree, and am going to add on to this, in anticipation of the backlash I expect you'll get:

Harder to kill doesn't mean kills you easier. Those are two different things. The AI needs some self-preservation skills.

(Apologies if that wasn't your intent, but I still think it's true. )

just out of curiosity.. why does the AI need self preservation skills? Does it want to go home to it's virtual family at the end of the day? Does it still have things on it's bucket list? Does it really want to see Star Wars Episode MCVIII: The Search for Module Storage? If it's going to think like a human then it needs its simultaneous/instantaneous analog control reduced by a big margin.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

just out of curiosity.. why does the AI need self preservation skills? Does it want to go home to it's virtual family at the end of the day? Does it still have things on it's bucket list? Does it really want to see Star Wars Episode MCVIII: The Search for Module Storage? If it's going to think like a human then it needs its simultaneous/instantaneous analog control reduced by a big margin.

So that it acts believable? People like that kinda stuff in games, its not for the sake of the life of the AI its for a better experience of the Player.

 

[Cheops1975]

So that it acts believable? People like that kinda stuff in games, its not for the sake of the life of the AI its for a better experience of the Player.

Meh.. fair enough.. I can get behind that.. but as it stands to be believable it still needs some work. A lone eagle splatting itself all over my fully shielded hull after making a jousting pass at me with 10% of it hull left kinda pulls me out of the immersion bit.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

just out of curiosity.. why does the AI need self preservation skills? Does it want to go home to it's virtual family at the end of the day? Does it still have things on it's bucket list? Does it really want to see Star Wars Episode MCVIII: The Search for Module Storage? If it's going to think like a human then it needs its simultaneous/instantaneous analog control reduced by a big margin.

Basically what Luigi said - I think it's more fun if the AI isn't unrealistically suicidal.

It's also worth noting that AI with self-preservation in mind will actually make combat easier. Right now, the AI has no concept of when it's losing the fight, and so 100% of the time it's trying to kill. If the AI knows "hey, my shields are down, I might die, I need to fly defensively", it'll stop focusing so fully on trying to kill you and start focusing more on trying to avoid fire. This would give the fights a more realistic flow - you damage him enough to gain the upper hand and put him on the defensive, and you're now in control of the pace of the battle, and he's reacting to you.

Making effective combat AI that completely fearless has artificially increased the difficulty of the game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Meh.. fair enough.. I can get behind that.. but as it stands to be believable it still needs some work. A lone eagle splatting itself all over my fully shielded hull after making a jousting pass at me with 10% of it hull left kinda pulls me out of the immersion bit.

Exactly. If the AI cared about self-preservation, that Eagle wouldn't make a jousting pass with 10% hull left, and wouldn't pull you out of the game.

 

[Cheops1975]

Basically what Luigi said - I think it's more fun if the AI isn't unrealistically suicidal.

It's also worth noting that AI with self-preservation in mind will actually make combat easier. Right now, the AI has no concept of when it's losing the fight, and so 100% of the time it's trying to kill. If the AI knows "hey, my shields are down, I might die, I need to fly defensively", it'll stop focusing so fully on trying to kill you and start focusing more on trying to avoid fire. This would give the fights a more realistic flow - you damage him enough to gain the upper hand and put him on the defensive, and you're now in control of the pace of the battle, and he's reacting to you.

Making effective combat AI that completely fearless has artificially increased the difficulty of the game.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



Exactly. If the AI cared about self-preservation, that Eagle wouldn't make a jousting pass with 10% hull left, and wouldn't pull you out of the game.

Hey I'm with you. The orbit and shot until death and joust till death mechanic is more tedious and boring than an actual variety in flight!

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Hey I'm with you. The orbit and shot until death and joust till death mechanic is more tedious and boring than an actual variety in flight!

Yeah, I've been saying that since they removed the "flee" mechanic in 2.1 beta. I loved that AI. You take more damage in fights now than pre-2.1, and the AI is better at shooting, but I think combat is a lot more dull.

However, FD has said that they are going to be adding in more techniques for the AI, so I am hopeful.

 

[Boomer Kay]

I am immediately skeptical whenever I see someone claim that they are already at their skill limit.

In a very one-dimensional activity like a 100 meter sprint, there certainly is a hard cap on what you can achieve trough practice.
In computer games? Hm. Depends if you actually want to become a good combat pilot or not.
If not - forget about combat and go your merry way and watch the "how to avoid pirates" tutorials. They work.
If you want to improve as combat pilot ... hmm .. combat is not so much about thinking and reflexes as it is about proper planning, drill and practice.

If one wants to improve, one can start taking videos of the own combat sessions and analyze them afterwards for mistakes (that's one of the great things about Vindicator Jones' videos .. he constantly comments on his own actions, mistakes he makes, decisionmaking .. that's pretty hard to do during combat, since you have to devote part of your brain's computational power to rationalizing and verbalizing).
Take notes, tackle one problem at a time -glaring or easy to fix ones first- and improve it.

Regarding loadouts .. a racing bike does not make one win the Tour the France. But a rusty old hopper with flat tires won't even go a few feet - so yea, understanding and optimizing ship choice and loadouts (to the own requirements) is part of the process.

 

[verminstar]

I'm having enough of those threads all over the forum about 2.1 AI being so hard (and that the OP will leave the game - as dozens of his friends ofcourse - if Frontier wont "fix" this!).

Watching many of the YouTube gameplay vids I see only very few showing what does it mean to pilot an Elite's realm spaceships like a pro. I might not have the 200 mils worth baby under my sticks, but after almost 1,5 year of my gameplay think I know thing or two about DOGFIGHTING by now. Even so I'm not even "Dangerous" rank yet!!

Because of above I'd like to show some of those "average players" what does it mean to MOVE & POSITION YOUR SHIP AGAINST YOUR ENEMIES in the void. There are few very nice videos about it out there (Vindicator Jones' ones are my favorite*), so I'm not aiming for such a detailed great explanations, I just plan to show off few minutes of my very own casual combat gameplay showing how AWARE PILOTING SKILLS differs from what I believe "average players" thinks of.

With this maybe just few of them will think twice before posting their point of view about "the game being too hard for casual players" and realize how amazingly the game is designed and how well it respects and rewards your piloting skills (if you have any!!!). **

Though, if any one of you Commanders would be so kind to point me out an efficient (the less CPU demanding the better) software to record a gameplay video, I'd be much appreciated. I can ofcourse buy the software for its full prize.

...and ofcourse if you'd like to share your very own fights you're being proud of, please share a vid in this threaf as well!

In meantime -- fly dangerously out there Commanders!!!

*) Vindicator Jones advanced combat tactics tutorials (playlist):
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLST2VzDxDCrwvkU6wYfo-z4UhGbObjl_M
**) EDITED: for not to be offending towards no one. I'm sorry for the original tone of my thread.

So not only have you completely ignore the fact that FD admitted there was some buggy AI, and judge all those to have complained as being average, but you also realize yer post is nothing more than a fanboi rant aimed at anyone who doesn't love the game as much as you do, apologize for it, then don't edit out the parts which are offensive?

You sir, really need to get out more. <I'll just edit out the offensive parts for you>

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Fully agreed Boomer Kay. Although I'd point out that (as far as I understand at least, I'm not a sprinter), with the 100 meter you're talking about a physical limit, not a skill limit.

 

[sndle9]

So that it acts believable? People like that kinda stuff in games, its not for the sake of the life of the AI its for a better experience of the Player.

The AI did have preservation skills during the beta. When their shields were low, they would boost off out of range and wait for them to recharge, or use SCB's before coming back...
Most people who expressed an opinion hated it as it made all battles protracted affairs and no fun so this was cut back and there was much rejoicing (and a few mutters).

 

[Boomer Kay]

Fully agreed Boomer Kay. Although I'd point out that (as far as I understand at least, I'm not a sprinter), with the 100 meter you're talking about a physical limit, not a skill limit.

It's a bit of both. And also a mental limit. *)

I hate running. I will never be good at running, because the sheer thought of running causes me some mental blockade. I walk faster than I run.

So I had to take up martial arts as a sport (and funny, people always think of me as kinda comfortable, unsportsy, couch potato .. I have a 3rd degree black belt and about 2 dozen smaller tournament victories, including 3 regional championships ), because I would be slower than any attacker I ever met.


*)I'm not a sprinter myself, but I practice at the athletics department which are also the sports science department of our university and Olympic Post and I had a nice chat with one of their coaches about such things and why "Europe" is so bad at athletics.

 

[Dimensions]

Problem is I use mouse and keyboard and the controls feel too sensitive (for fine control) and I don't have enough fingers to simultaneously manoeuvre every which angle, constantly alter thrust, manage pips (playing the silly power shifting mini game), change weapons, target, fire weapon(s), use FA off, or use gimballled weapons as fixed weapons because of AI chaff spam. I've been playing elite from the beginning but I think the game was really designed for primarily using a joystick than keyboard. Not so much a lack of skill as a lack of fingers and awkward distance to keys.

The AI can do all of these things and more simultaneously and perfectly, essentially meaning NPCs can fly much better than most players. Add a dash of AI cheating, i.e. not playing by the same rules as their human counterparts and you have the perfect engineer recipe for disaster. I think FD could smooth out the player curve by adding single keybinds that allow you to do essentially what voice command does thereby removing some of the extra finger work, for example why the hell do we have to play a power systems juggling game in the middle of combat, I mean you only need about 3 settings, so let us bind power configurations to keys. Let me bind target "subsystem", power module off/on etc. I think these small changes would make a lot of difference, and wouldn't require dumbing down the AI.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

It's a bit of both. And also a mental limit. *)

I hate running. I will never be good at running, because the sheer thought of running causes me some mental blockade. I walk faster than I run.

So I had to take up martial arts as a sport (and funny, people always think of me as kinda comfortable, unsportsy, couch potato .. I have a 3rd degree black belt and about 2 dozen smaller tournament victories, including 3 regional championships ), because I would be slower than any attacker I ever met.


*)I'm not a sprinter myself, but I practice at the athletics department which are also the sports science department of our university and Olympic Post and I had a nice chat with one of their coaches about such things and why "Europe" is so bad at athletics.

The mental limit on that sort of thing is really nutty. I decided to stop being so fat a few years ago, and as part of that took up jogging. I had always hated running and jogging, and my brain would crap out well before my legs. I kept forcing it on myself though, and after about a five or six months, my brain started craving it. I would really miss running if I skipped a day, and would look forward to it. It was rather unsettling. Brains are weird things. I wish I could get myself into a martial art. That would be a lot of fun.

 

[Cmdr Zach]

Problem is I use mouse and keyboard and the controls feel too sensitive (for fine control) and I don't have enough fingers to simultaneously manoeuvre every which angle, constantly alter thrust, manage pips (playing the silly power shifting mini game), change weapons, target, fire weapon(s), use FA off, or use gimballled weapons as fixed weapons because of AI chaff spam. I've been playing elite from the beginning but I think the game was really designed for primarily using a joystick than keyboard. Not so much a lack of skill as a lack of fingers and awkward distance to keys.

Yes, it is designed for a joystick. It's a flying game. Game pad a close second.

The AI can do all of these things and more simultaneously and perfectly, essentially meaning NPCs can fly much better than most players. Add a dash of AI cheating, i.e. not playing by the same rules as their human counterparts and you have the perfect engineer recipe for disaster.

AI programmer has expressly said, multiple times the AI don't cheat. Bugs is a different matter.

I think FD could smooth out the player curve by adding single keybinds that allow you to do essentially what voice command does thereby removing some of the extra finger work, for example why the hell do we have to play a power systems juggling game in the middle of combat, I mean you only need about 3 settings, so let us bind power configurations to keys. Let me bind target "subsystem", power module off/on etc. I think these small changes would make a lot of difference, and wouldn't require dumbing down the AI.

The complexity of ship management is a large part of what makes this game. It's the reason why a lot of controls are in the side panels and can't be hot keyed or shortcutted. During combat you have to manage power, throttle, modules, fire groups as well as flying, fa off, threat avoidance, countermeasures......it's a complex game and thst what makes it great. If you want up down left right and shoot.....

 

[[VR] Enexemander]

Problem is I use mouse and keyboard and the controls feel too sensitive (for fine control) and I don't have enough fingers to simultaneously manoeuvre every which angle, constantly alter thrust, manage pips (playing the silly power shifting mini game), change weapons, target, fire weapon(s), use FA off, or use gimballled weapons as fixed weapons because of AI chaff spam. I've been playing elite from the beginning but I think the game was really designed for primarily using a joystick than keyboard. Not so much a lack of skill as a lack of fingers and awkward distance to keys.

The AI can do all of these things and more simultaneously and perfectly, essentially meaning NPCs can fly much better than most players. Add a dash of AI cheating, i.e. not playing by the same rules as their human counterparts and you have the perfect engineer recipe for disaster. I think FD could smooth out the player curve by adding single keybinds that allow you to do essentially what voice command does thereby removing some of the extra finger work, for example why the hell do we have to play a power systems juggling game in the middle of combat, I mean you only need about 3 settings, so let us bind power configurations to keys. Let me bind target "subsystem", power module off/on etc. I think these small changes would make a lot of difference, and wouldn't require dumbing down the AI.

The game is much better with a stick and throttle, to be sure. I wouldn't want to play it with a Keyboard and Mouse anymore. Even with a KBAM, you want to split the load around logically- have your pip management, targeting, pitch and maybe yaw be on the mouse, and try to keep the other functions you need handy on the keyboard, as an example.

There's too much to do to leave all of it to one hand.

 

[Dimensions]

Yes, it is designed for a joystick. It's a flying game. Game pad a close second.



AI programmer has expressly said, multiple times the AI don't cheat. Bugs is a different matter.



The complexity of ship management is a large part of what makes this game. It's the reason why a lot of controls are in the side panels and can't be hot keyed or shortcutted. During combat you have to manage power, throttle, modules, fire groups as well as flying, fa off, threat avoidance, countermeasures......it's a complex game and thst what makes it great. If you want up down left right and shoot.....

Well you can reduce the complexity by binding actions to voice commands, so why can't people who use keyboards have these as keybinds?

 

[shadragon]

Sort of a, "Every time I walk up to that 400 pound biker, he gives me a bloody nose. It has to be the bars fault," problem.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Well you can reduce the complexity by binding actions to voice commands, so why can't people who use keyboards have these as keybinds?

To a point, yes, but all commands you need in combat should be on your HOTAS or joystick. VoiceAttack, while brilliant, shouldn't be used in combat conditions as it can fail if spoken to fast, or if you're screeching like a little girl in panic. Always know what the hotkey is in case VA ever goes down.

 

[Kumicho Oyabun]

I will stream my game play during my lunch and go put forth my best!
I should be on here at 12:45EST watch and laugh at my suckage

https://www.twitch.tv/kumicho_oyabun