The "average players" piloting skills = ROTFL!

[Envy661]

There's an ocean of "accessible" games out there becoming more accessible with every iteration of their franchise.
Why would you want to compete with them and their 90000 steam "achievements" rather than offering a real learning curve and feeling of accomplishment without that thick layer of delusions of grandeur?

Did those spinning elite npcs really feel that right?
The low levels are not supposed to be harder than 2.0, btw.
And I consider npcs not spawning according to a missions level and pay to be a bug and the abundance of elite "ambient" npcs is being looked into according to latest info from FD.

If we follow that method of thinking then we just become modern day EVE. A game that's nearly impossible for new players to get involved in, and is only sustained because It's a monthly sub game with a lot of dedicated old-timers.

Can we at least settle on a middle ground here? We're already more EVE than X3. We need that middle ground.

 

[Soliluna]

If we follow that method of thinking then we just become modern day EVE. A game that's nearly impossible for new players to get involved in, and is only sustained because It's a monthly sub game with a lot of dedicated old-timers.

Can we at least settle on a middle ground here? We're already more EVE than X3. We need that middle ground.

Don;t see the point of comparisons to EVE. Eve is a really easy game that's accessibility is mired in how difficult it is to grind out the late game crap. Not because of challenges other than time however, where you need to sit your pilot down for 6 months to flesh out his skillbuild.

Elite is not complicated or challenging, it has its moments now and again. We just have a far more unskilled audience (note: not casual), which is fine, we just need to make certain high security areas are high security. At the moment it's like... "security? What security?"

 

[Boomer Kay]

If we follow that method of thinking then we just become modern day EVE. A game that's nearly impossible for new players to get involved in, and is only sustained because It's a monthly sub game with a lot of dedicated old-timers.

Can we at least settle on a middle ground here? We're already more EVE than X3. We need that middle ground.

EvE? Is the incarnation of large group driven, bot fed grindfest 2nd job game.
I fail to see any of that in ED.
Hello? I'm flying around alone in open in a mining fit imperial eagle atm. And when I'm done with that I'll switch back to solo and PG and go my merry way.

 

[terrycloth]

That's strange bc I suck at both and have only died 3 times since 2.1 hit.

Dying three times in a week is suddenly acceptable? With the ridiculously punitive death penalties we have to play with?

I haven't died at all but I've had to run away from a lot of stuff that I probably could have faced down pre-patch. I did get rescued by cops once, which was nice. Overall, from my point of view, the new AI is fine... (although I don't how their Python managed to keep on my Python's 6 continuously no matter what I did, including 4 pips to engine and boosting and FA off and seriously I tried a lot of stuff before high-waking out of there) (eagles didn't give me that much trouble!)

I'm lucky that I started playing recently enough that my combat rank is still low, though. I heard the really bad things only start happening at the higher ranks. And since as far as I can tell it's just 'number of kills', everyone's going to get there eventually whether they want to or not.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

If we follow that method of thinking then we just become modern day EVE. A game that's nearly impossible for new players to get involved in, and is only sustained because It's a monthly sub game with a lot of dedicated old-timers.

Can we at least settle on a middle ground here? We're already more EVE than X3. We need that middle ground.

If following that line of thinking further makes us EVE, and others think we should be more newbie friendly, aren't we already at a middle ground?

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Dying three times in a week is suddenly acceptable? With the ridiculously punitive death penalties we have to play with?

Uh.. Yeah?

What ridiculously punitive death penalties? A little bit of credits? Come on now... You're gonna make me go all old-man and complain about kids these days not knowing how easy they have it.

 

[Soliluna]

Dying three times in a week is suddenly acceptable? With the ridiculously punitive death penalties we have to play with?

I haven't died at all but I've had to run away from a lot of stuff that I probably could have faced down pre-patch. I did get rescued by cops once, which was nice. Overall, from my point of view, the new AI is fine... (although I don't how their Python managed to keep on my Python's 6 continuously no matter what I did, including 4 pips to engine and boosting and FA off and seriously I tried a lot of stuff before high-waking out of there) (eagles didn't give me that much trouble!)

I'm lucky that I started playing recently enough that my combat rank is still low, though. I heard the really bad things only start happening at the higher ranks. And since as far as I can tell it's just 'number of kills', everyone's going to get there eventually whether they want to or not.

Ridiculous is pushing it, honestly. Elite is an easy game, way down the hierarchy of difficult games and the punishment for dying is small in comparison to other games.


Although it could certainly be tuned "Ridiculous" is a tad hilarious considering it's not even a roguelike.

 

[Arconedas]

Yeah, elite is easy game if all you do is combat in a combat ship. If thats all the devs want elite to be so be it. Doing trading in a non-combat ship with full cargo hold (excluding cutter and type-9 here since they can always escape) after 2.1 isnt that easy unless you possess l33t skillz.

 

[Sapient6]

Elite is not complicated or challenging, it has its moments now and again. We just have a far more unskilled audience (note: not casual), which is fine, we just need to make certain high security areas are high security. At the moment it's like... "security? What security?"

That is not enough. We also need the tools to make sticking to high security, or diving into the deep end, more of a choice and less of a consequence.

What I mean by that is this: let's say you want to travel from point A to point B. Both A and B are safe, but there's an intervening 100 LY worth of traveling. You can get there more quickly, and maybe for increased rewards (or whatever) by traveling through a patch of low security (or populated anarchy), or you can take a less direct route that sticks to high security.

I think that sounds like about what people are looking for when they mention system security, and when they recommend players pay attention to system security.

So how do we, as players, go from A to B while keeping system security in mind? Security level is not visible on the galaxy map. There is no "plot route" option that takes system security into account. There is no manual means to plot a route short of selecting one-system jumps, which is time consuming and probably not a good idea if you're trying to Stay Safe (and probably not a good idea if you're trying to Stay Dangerous).

I think we're a very long way, feature-wise, from system security playing a real role in how players deal with NPC interactions. Which is too bad, because that would offer some depth and would mitigate some player's concerns about the AI difficulty bump.

 

[Envy661]

That is not enough. We also need the tools to make sticking to high security, or diving into the deep end, more of a choice and less of a consequence.

What I mean by that is this: let's say you want to travel from point A to point B. Both A and B are safe, but there's an intervening 100 LY worth of traveling. You can get there more quickly, and maybe for increased rewards (or whatever) by traveling through a patch of low security (or populated anarchy), or you can take a less direct route that sticks to high security.

I think that sounds like about what people are looking for when they mention system security, and when they recommend players pay attention to system security.

So how do we, as players, go from A to B while keeping system security in mind? Security level is not visible on the galaxy map. There is no "plot route" option that takes system security into account. There is no manual means to plot a route short of selecting one-system jumps, which is time consuming and probably not a good idea if you're trying to Stay Safe (and probably not a good idea if you're trying to Stay Dangerous).

I think we're a very long way, feature-wise, from system security playing a real role in how players deal with NPC interactions. Which is too bad, because that would offer some depth and would mitigate some player's concerns about the AI difficulty bump.

This I think would be one step in the right direction of helping to make the game more accesible.

 

[Sapient6]

And since as far as I can tell it's just 'number of kills', everyone's going to get there eventually whether they want to or not.

This is a significant problem with a player's combat rank (or other profession ranks) playing any role in the difficulty of the game for that player. Combat Rank is an entirely arbitrary statistic in that it is entirely meaningless. Of course it doesn't have to be. If losing fights would cause it to decrease it could start being meaningful...

 

[Bill Clement]

Very much agree with this. I am immediately skeptical whenever I see someone claim that they are already at their skill limit. No offense to those people, I am sure they are doing the best they currently can, but that's just nonsense. A human can practice an activity daily for multiple decades and still improve, no one is at their skill limit right now. I think you could argue that the entire concept of a "skill limit" is flawed thinking. People can always improve in their skills.

So much of the thinking around combat maneuvering is entirely self-defeating like this. We can all improve our flying, and if we're unhappy with our current abilities in-game, we should all be willing to learn. Claiming you're at a "skill limit" just pre-emptively rejects all possibility at improve

It's an attractive notion. It's also false. For example, I reached my 'skill threshold' in pool (what do Americans call it? eight ball? same game with mahusive pockets and more rules) in my early twenties. Thirty years of practice, coaching and research later and I'm pretty sure I'd get beaten by my younger self. Better eyesight, fewer injuries, the insane level of fitness Her Majesties Forces used to require...

The people stating their ability has plateaued may not be trying hard enough, as you claim. Or they may genuinely have reached their limit. We all do, in everything we do. It's why we're not all fantastic guitarists, gold medal winners, amazing dancers. If someone is honest enough to publicly acknowledge something that is seen as a shortcoming on this board, I have nothing but respect for them. Although I'm sceptical by nature and inclination I'm also willing to accept that the best judge of their ability is theirself..

 

[Bill Clement]

Problem is I use mouse and keyboard and the controls feel too sensitive (for fine control) and I don't have enough fingers to simultaneously manoeuvre every which angle, constantly alter thrust, manage pips (playing the silly power shifting mini game), change weapons, target, fire weapon(s), use FA off, or use gimballled weapons as fixed weapons because of AI chaff spam. I've been playing elite from the beginning but I think the game was really designed for primarily using a joystick than keyboard. Not so much a lack of skill as a lack of fingers and awkward distance to keys.

The AI can do all of these things and more simultaneously and perfectly, essentially meaning NPCs can fly much better than most players. Add a dash of AI cheating, i.e. not playing by the same rules as their human counterparts and you have the perfect engineer recipe for disaster. I think FD could smooth out the player curve by adding single keybinds that allow you to do essentially what voice command does thereby removing some of the extra finger work, for example why the hell do we have to play a power systems juggling game in the middle of combat, I mean you only need about 3 settings, so let us bind power configurations to keys. Let me bind target "subsystem", power module off/on etc. I think these small changes would make a lot of difference, and wouldn't require dumbing down the AI.

Some of the best players in the game use keyboard and mouse.

Some who suk- like me- have very expensive HOTAS setups.

Mileage varies...

Sort of a, "Every time I walk up to that 400 pound biker, he gives me a bloody nose. It has to be the bars fault," problem.

Whoa there! Whats with the anti biker sentiment? I've never, ever seen a biker start a fight. Seen a few ended by them, but that's not the same thing.

Maybe I'm going to the wrong bars?

My understanding is that it is contextual against rank and the ship you are driving. There is no point for the game to generate a single DBS against Cutter or Corvette as part of any mission; it's likely to be FDL, one of the federal ships, or Ani.

But if you go into a RES, CZ or NAV type instance then you'll see all sorts. That's kind-of the point. And yes the AI is based on "in game" events, because they are "in game".

My understanding is that getting roflstomped by everything in my T-7 got old. You might be right about the FdL being a default, but it doesn't make dealing with the fracker any easier...

Yeah, elite is easy game if all you do is combat in a combat ship. If thats all the devs want elite to be so be it. Doing trading in a non-combat ship with full cargo hold (excluding cutter and type-9 here since they can always escape) after 2.1 isnt that easy unless you possess l33t skillz.

That's what keeps things interesting, my friend! I can heartily recommend the FDS- vulnerable enough to feel threatened by the new AI and other players, strong enough to allow you to win any encounter with sufficient skill and a wee bit of luck!

 

[Certacito]

Oh I'll be following it

With an OP like that he's got to walk the walk now!

I think, OP, that's short for nut up or shut up. I am looking forward to your videos also

 

[ROLX]

Irrelevant and stupid rant by me. My apologies folks.

 

[Tikigod]

I agree, but I don't think dumbing down the game is the best solution. Creating a community culture that seeks self-improvement and helps each other in pursuit of that goal is a far better way.

This.

The last week has seen a drastic increase in noise all centralised around cries for Frontier to 'dumb down' pretty much all areas of the game.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying how to obtain materials and introduce static clearly sign posted 'theme park attractions' where you can just go to get exactly what you want... so "Planet Arsenic", "Planet Tungsten", "Corporate firmware land", "Eccentric waveform island" and so forth.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying what content you even encounter and to allow the player to 'pick and choose' what aspects they are faced with and degree that content will scale up to regardless to your actions to create their own experience and personalised universe.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying the AI to allow the return of solo 'space Jesus' adventures where a single pilot can go up against more powerful and more numerous foes and come out of it victorious with barely a scratch.


It has kind of been a disturbing look into the kind of player culture that's established itself seemingly quite spread out within the Elite Dangerous playerbase of what is often referred to as "The Burger King Generation" (Have it your way).... except on a pretty disturbing scale. It's usual to find resistance over changes especially those that make things more challenging or expect the player to find things out themselves through game discovery, but the degree of reaction on these forums to essentially reinvent the game on fundamental ways to have 2, 3 or even 4 different experiences running in parallel in the interest of having a way to do the same things as everyone else but in a personalised way that's exactly catered to your preference is rather weird to observe.

</rant>

Rant over the eccentricities witnessed on these forums the last week aside, I think the AI itself is in a very good place. Lower rated NPCs probably need a bit more polish and tuning up slightly, but really what potential problems do exist have nothing to do with the actual AI but are about finding the right balance in NPC ship performance.

Many NPC ship load outs are already where they need to be, others could probably do with a bit of tweaking in the interest of trying to have the experience of going against a NPC in the same ship with the same rating a bit more consistent rather than having such wild fluctuations depending on if they have missiles or not, chaff or not, railguns or not.... this isn't too say that it shouldn't matter what the NPC ships are loaded out with, nor that fighting a 'Deadly Cobra Mk 3' should always play out the same... but having one NPC configuration absolutely annihilate you because it had missiles and plasma accelerators, and the exact same ship type and NPC rating not using missiles and plasma accelerators always being a cake walk, is just too much of a inconsistency. The AI should first and foremost be what poses the challenge, their loadout quirks should act as flavour to the engagement. Not the other way around.

Overall, missiles both for NPCs and players need some tuning further down the scale in terms of sheer external damage they can do per missile. A NPC shouldn't be melting medium sized multicannons in a single partial volley, and I shouldn't be entirely destroying high rated Dropship engines in 2 missile volleys either.... I ran missiles to test out their new performance in 2.1 betas and they really are horrendously broken in ability to just "Turn off" a ship from being able to perform with minimal skill required behind doing so.

Some of the smaller ship NPCs at higher rating could perhaps do with some overall speed output tuning just so fights against them don't get dragged into the pit of frustration that is just repeating the same maneuver loop for 10+ minutes (2.1 Beta 1 & 2 AI anyone?) but which you can't really do anything about because You're flying 'Rock' and the NPC spawned with 'Paper'.

The rest really just comes down to us players needing to adapt, learn and improve and being open to needing to do so.... oh and actually being informed. Taking steps to make sure you're informed is important, Frontier do a lousy job of making sure people are informed about how the game works, so Elite Dangerous does require additional effort in this regard by the player.... come to think of it... maybe that's the problem...

 

[CMDR Corlas]

It's an attractive notion. It's also false. For example, I reached my 'skill threshold' in pool (what do Americans call it? eight ball? same game with mahusive pockets and more rules) in my early twenties. Thirty years of practice, coaching and research later and I'm pretty sure I'd get beaten by my younger self. Better eyesight, fewer injuries, the insane level of fitness Her Majesties Forces used to require...

The people stating their ability has plateaued may not be trying hard enough, as you claim. Or they may genuinely have reached their limit. We all do, in everything we do. It's why we're not all fantastic guitarists, gold medal winners, amazing dancers. If someone is honest enough to publicly acknowledge something that is seen as a shortcoming on this board, I have nothing but respect for them. Although I'm sceptical by nature and inclination I'm also willing to accept that the best judge of their ability is theirself..

We call it pool, I thought you guys called it snooker? Or is that the weird one with the bumpers?

I steadfastly refuse to accept the concept of "skill cap", although I'd be willing to admit that might be more due to naive idealism than reality.

In the context of Elite though, I think someone would have a VERY hard time proving they are completely incapable of, say, managing their pips slightly better, or managing their throttle a bit more.

I'll fully accept someone's claim that they tried as hard as they could on a given encounter. But people are nowhere near objective enough to determine if they are actually unable to improve.

Edited to add: The game's simply not been out long enough for someone to have truely "skill capped". Skill capping implies some serious dedication. A more casual player (not a knock against casuals at all) pretty much by definition can always improve.

 

[Minoo Minou]

This.

The last week has seen a drastic increase in noise all centralised around cries for Frontier to 'dumb down' pretty much all areas of the game.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying how to obtain materials and introduce static clearly sign posted 'theme park attractions' where you can just go to get exactly what you want... so "Planet Arsenic", "Planet Tungsten", "Corporate firmware land", "Eccentric waveform island" and so forth.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying what content you even encounter and to allow the player to 'pick and choose' what aspects they are faced with and degree that content will scale up to regardless to your actions to create their own experience and personalised universe.

We've got demands and support behind ideas for simplifying the AI to allow the return of solo 'space Jesus' adventures where a single pilot can go up against more powerful and more numerous foes and come out of it victorious with barely a scratch.


It has kind of been a disturbing look into the kind of player culture that's established itself seemingly quite spread out within the Elite Dangerous playerbase of what is often referred to as "The Burger King Generation" (Have it your way).... except on a pretty disturbing scale. It's usual to find resistance over changes especially those that make things more challenging or expect the player to find things out themselves through game discovery, but the degree of reaction on these forums to essentially reinvent the game on fundamental ways to have 2, 3 or even 4 different experiences running in parallel in the interest of having a way to do the same things as everyone else but in a personalised way that's exactly catered to your preference is rather weird to observe.

</rant>

Rant over the eccentricities witnessed on these forums the last week aside, I think the AI itself is in a very good place. Lower rated NPCs probably need a bit more polish and tuning up slightly, but really what potential problems do exist have nothing to do with the actual AI but are about finding the right balance in NPC ship performance.

Many NPC ship load outs are already where they need to be, others could probably do with a bit of tweaking in the interest of trying to have the experience of going against a NPC in the same ship with the same rating a bit more consistent rather than having such wild fluctuations depending on if they have missiles or not, chaff or not, railguns or not.... this isn't too say that it shouldn't matter what the NPC ships are loaded out with, nor that fighting a 'Deadly Cobra Mk 3' should always play out the same... but having one NPC configuration absolutely annihilate you because it had missiles and plasma accelerators, and the exact same ship type and NPC rating not using missiles and plasma accelerators always being a cake walk, is just too much of a inconsistency.

Overall, missiles both NPCs and players need some tuning further down the scale in terms of sheer external damage they can do per missile. A NPC shouldn't be melting medium sized multicannons in a partial volley, and I shouldn't be entirely destroying high rated Dropship engines in 2 missile volleys either.

Some of the smaller NPCs at higher rating could perhaps do with some overall speed output tuning just so fights against them don't get dragged into the pit of frustration that is something that is just repeating the same maneuver loop for 10+ minutes but which you can't really do anything about because You're flying 'Rock' and the NPC spawned with 'Paper'.

The rest really just comes down to us players needing to adapt, learn and improve and being open to needing to do so.

That's well thought, have some rep.

 

[Kayweg]

The so called "average player" is who's sustaining this game long term.
The few self proclaimed "top of the crop" and "seen it all, can do it all" folks are pretty "irrelevant" in the bigger scheme of things.
Or perhaps, rather then branding them irrelevant (coz they are afterall valuable contributors), seem to claim disproportional influence at times.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

It's an attractive notion. It's also false. For example, I reached my 'skill threshold' in pool (what do Americans call it? eight ball? same game with mahusive pockets and more rules) in my early twenties. Thirty years of practice, coaching and research later and I'm pretty sure I'd get beaten by my younger self. Better eyesight, fewer injuries, the insane level of fitness Her Majesties Forces used to require...

The people stating their ability has plateaued may not be trying hard enough, as you claim. Or they may genuinely have reached their limit. We all do, in everything we do. It's why we're not all fantastic guitarists, gold medal winners, amazing dancers. If someone is honest enough to publicly acknowledge something that is seen as a shortcoming on this board, I have nothing but respect for them. Although I'm sceptical by nature and inclination I'm also willing to accept that the best judge of their ability is theirself..

Billiards is the actual name, but we call it pool here in 'Murica.

 

[Kayweg]

Some of the best players in the game use keyboard and mouse.

Some who suk- like me- have very expensive HOTAS setups.

Mileage varies... ;

Agreed on that, hardware will make a good player into a better player. What it won't do is make an average or below average player into a good player.

Hardware supports skill, it doesn't foster it.

Of course the makers of such gear will advertise otherwise

And who of us didn't feel a bit smug, when we got our first hotas or wheel and pedals for racing games. ?