General / Off-Topic The coming French elections

[Adept]

Yes and there is also a problem of labor flexibility which is not really in the French spirit

I'd say that we'll all probably need more of that, but it needs to be combined with excellent social security. Basic Income / Citizen Dividend, whatever you want to call it. Currently (still) in Finland you're not allowed to study if you're unemployed. If you sign into a school or university, you lose the support from the government. Just one of the little insanities of the current model.

People keep thinking that everybody can have a good, secure job, and should strive for that. The truth is that it's not possible anymore, and increasing automation and work efficiency means that while there is a lot of wealth generated in the world, there are fewer jobs available than there used to be.

I hope Marcon is smart. We all kind of need him to be.

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Fundamentally, the Islam must remain on the lands of Islam. It's the best solution

Shouldn't we then push Christianity back to the Middle East? We here in the north can go back to our native deities, and you Celtic types have your own native religions as well.

***

Yesterday, when the election results were coming in, Finnish state TV had journalists in Paris. They interviewed people like the Finnish ambassador, and several artists and other notables who have moved from Finland to France over the decades.

One interesting observation was that France has changed a lot since 1990, and to the people interviewed, largely in a good way. According to them the place used to be very insular, and turned inwards. Everything used to be about how French culture and language is the best in the world, and definitely better than anything that could come from the outside. The focus seemed to be on preserving French purity.

These days they find France to much more cosmopolitan, and open to the world. French citizens are making use of the freedom of the EU, and now we actually have French people moving to Finland, if they happen to like the calm and the quiet, and having lots of wild, clean nature around. In 1990 a French person moving to Finland would have been a strange event.

***

I don't know how old you are Patrick (in the name of fair disclosure in case you want to share, I'm 43 myself), but I kind of get the feeling you were raised in the France that was very much about French exceptionalism, and being a little better than the rest of Europe (and the the planet really). Maybe you miss the more closed off France, where all other cultures are kept at arms length?

 

[Minonian]

On your Atheist list, we'll claim three of them.

There are violent and sick people of all creeds, colours, faiths (or lack thereof) etc. We are all human.

The difference we have is nobody yet fought a war or undertook a terrorist act in the name of atheism.

What's common in them, all using some sort of ideology / moral codex to justify their ill deed.

You destroy all ideology, faiths and political system or just install a single one? You really think there will be paradise?
Please!!! We just search for another sorry excuse to keep continue this.

 

[Adept]

Looking at the title of this thread; its subject matter is now in the past tense and looking at the last few pages, that is getting obvious.

Parliamentary elections in a month. It's not over

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Parliamentary elections in a month. It's not over

I fear that the far right will keep getting stronger, centrist Macron won't fix France, he's about banks, big business and corporate interests, i hope the left can recover.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Like France and Spain, where it has existed for centuries.

I'm talking about dominant Islam

 

[Patrick_68000]

And I do think going to an election and willfully not electing one of the candidates is a better act than just abstaining.
Media should cover that better to get a perspective.

No need. People know that, compared to the registered voters (47 million), this represents a score of 43.63% for the new president against 22.38% for the patron of the FN. And that in the 43.63% of Macron, about 42% did not vote for him but against Le Pen. This represents about 23% of the French electorate who voted for Macron by conviction (as during the first round)

 

[NascentChemist]

No.
They cant. But they can get the Gain of it in the Current Life without Fearing for Retribution afterwards. Which means that they can do whatever they please regardless of it being morally right or wrong.

Taking ISIS as example.
Many Men joining them are drawn in by the promise of wealth, female slaves, authority and respect for them etc.
They aint exactly drawn in by the promise of the afterlife. (The guys who are usually end up as Suicide Fodder which according to ISIS is the fastest way to get your 11 Maidens lol)
In Fact I assume many People in ISIS being Atheists actually which only care for the Material Rewards and dont give a crab about Islam at all.

I'm hesitant to throw more fuel on this fire, but I'd like to point some things out. Firstly, divine command is a pretty terrible moral theory, with more problems than act utilitarianism. Even if DC is the bedrock of your moral beliefs, you should find something else to use as a facade.

Secondly, your hypothesis about ISIS is just inane. Honestly, are they the new standard for Godwin's Law? Can you point to any evidence beyond your penchant for disparaging the non-religious? The "No true Scotsman" fallacy usually isn't extended to other religious groups, so maybe you deserve some kudos for that.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Shouldn't we then push Christianity back to the Middle East? We here in the north can go back to our native deities, and you Celtic types have your own native religions as well.

Yes very good like this

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Yesterday, when the election results were coming in, Finnish state TV had journalists in Paris. They interviewed people like the Finnish ambassador, and several artists and other notables who have moved from Finland to France over the decades.

One interesting observation was that France has changed a lot since 1990, and to the people interviewed, largely in a good way. According to them the place used to be very insular, and turned inwards. Everything used to be about how French culture and language is the best in the world, and definitely better than anything that could come from the outside. The focus seemed to be on preserving French purity.

These days they find France to much more cosmopolitan, and open to the world. French citizens are making use of the freedom of the EU, and now we actually have French people moving to Finland, if they happen to like the calm and the quiet, and having lots of wild, clean nature around. In 1990 a French person moving to Finland would have been a strange event.

***

I don't know how old you are Patrick (in the name of fair disclosure in case you want to share, I'm 43 myself), but I kind of get the feeling you were raised in the France that was very much about French exceptionalism, and being a little better than the rest of Europe (and the the planet really). Maybe you miss the more closed off France, where all other cultures are kept at arms length?

I was not talking about France but about Europe and the Western world in general. Islam is not at home here. Its lands are elsewhere

 

[Minonian]

John Lennon did want to start a war for peace. I think that's the closest we came.

All wars for peace. The kind of peace what you prefer.
How about this? Let there be peace! And thats all.

 

[Sunleader]

This is going nowhere , i see the point of those arguing in favour of pandering to religion, but i disagree with it, i guess this is another one of those agree to disagree things, we can debate these issues without branding others as racists though. As for this being somewhat off topic, i guess the moment the election was over it became a past tense thread, however the issues we are discussing have no doubt been relevant to the French, or indeed any election topic.

Pandering to it. And not Blaming it for everything wrong is two different things.
Your Irrational Blaming of Religion as Evil and the illogical assumption that Religion is causing Terrorism is simply not making sense to us.

People will always find a reason to be pricks
And they will always lay out whatever Philosophy they got to Justify it.

Just so you know. Your Name as Antitheist Crusader. Is not a Bad Example. Not a Few People want to Eradicate the entirety of the Middle East. Saying we should just Carpet Bomb the Entire Area and Raze the Cities.
Genociding the entire Muslim Population to get rid of that Religion as Evil.
You think thats less evil than ISIS ?

 

[FuzzySpider]

I'm hesitant to throw more fuel on this fire, but I'd like to point some things out. Firstly, divine command is a pretty terrible moral theory, with more problems than act utilitarianism. Even if DC is the bedrock of your moral beliefs, you should find something else to use as a facade.

It's no better or worse than any other moral theory. It might not sit well with your preferences, but that's all morality is - preferences.

Secondly, your hypothesis about ISIS is just inane. Honestly, are they the new standard for Godwin's Law? Can you point to any evidence beyond your penchant for disparaging the non-religious? The "No true Scotsman" fallacy usually isn't extended to other religious groups, so maybe you deserve some kudos for that.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;qlbirlSA-dc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlbirlSA-dc[/video]

People are drawn to such things because they lack something in their lives. In that Sunleader is absolutely correct. I can only repeat what I said earlier - watch 4 lions. It's a superbly researched movie on terrorism, as well as being hysterically funny.

Spoiler

[video=youtube;BkLYDo6x8-w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkLYDo6x8-w[/video]

Spoiler

[video=youtube;ZAGO_l_YTbk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAGO_l_YTbk[/video]

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Just so you know. Your Name as Antitheist Crusader. Is not a Bad Example. Not a Few People want to Eradicate the entirety of the Middle East. Saying we should just Carpet Bomb the Entire Area and Raze the Cities.
Genociding the entire Muslim Population to get rid of that Religion as Evil.
You think thats less evil than ISIS ?

From Sam Harris' book, The End of Faith;

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own.

Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime -- as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day -- but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe."

It's astonishing that, in a book speaking to the evil of religion, an atheist says we need to preemptively obliterate one fifth of the worlds population with nuclear weapons.

 

[beelbeebub]

No need. People know that, compared to the registered voters (47 million), this represents a score of 43.63% for the new president against 22.38% for the patron of the FN. And that in the 43.63% of Macron, about 42% did not vote for him but against Le Pen. This represents about 23% of the French electorate who voted for Macron by conviction (as during the first round)

To paraphrase Patrick....

The french people have spoken!

Marcon is the choice of the majority!

65-35% is certain......

Oh wait, you're saying that not everybody voted? So when you look at the total electorate his vote is less than 50%?

It doesn't matter how to try to slice it, Marcon's 65-35% (or 43-23% if you like) victory is very much more certain than the 52-48% (or 37-35% if you prefer) than the Brexit result you crow about.

 

[Minonian]

Your Irrational Blaming of Religion as Evil and the illogical assumption that Religion is causing Terrorism is simply not making sense to us.

Allow me to be perfectly clear, My opinion haven't changed for a bit in this matters. I simply withholding what i have to say, because right now, it's not to time to put these matters to their well deserved place, and until the current in world situations where this can kick up the power balance not come to their conclusion i will let it slide.

But only until than. That far you boys have the chance to talk rubbish and get nowhere with it, but after that?

Spoiler

there is a wisdom in silence, when you know with a few well placed sentence you can turn the whole world around.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The french people have spoken!

Marcon is the choice of the majority!

65-35% is certain......

But I have never disputed. This is the democracy. Macron is our president. Without the adhesion of the French people, to this day. Concerning the Brexit, the large majority who voted to leave, voted in full by conviction. Unlike the majority which voted for Macron and half of which did not vote by conviction but by rejection of Le Pen. This is the difference between the sovereign and convinced decision of the British people for the Brexit and the "forced" and unconvinced decision of less than half of the total French electorate. 47 million voters. 20 million for Macron among 42% did not vote for him by adhesion but by rejection of Le Pen. Macron elected president with 12 million votes on 47 million. This is the sad reality

 

[Adept]

But I have never disputed. This is the democracy. Macron is our president. Without the adhesion of the French people, to this day. Concerning the Brexit, the large majority who voted to leave, voted in full by conviction. Unlike the majority which voted for Macron and half of which did not vote by conviction but by rejection of Le Pen. This is the difference between the sovereign and convinced decision of the British people for the Brexit and the "forced" and unconvinced decision of less than half of the total French electorate. 47 million voters. 20 million for Macron among 42% did not vote for him by adhesion but by rejection of Le Pen. Macron elected president with 12 million votes on 47 million. This is the sad reality

You are not being fair here. In comparing apples to apples, you should remember that the Brexit win was largely a protest against David Cameron and the state of politics in the UK. Turnout was also quite low.

If you think only a small fraction of the French back Marcon, then the same is true of the UK citizens and Brexit.

 

[Patrick_68000]

you should remember that the Brexit win was largely a protest against David Cameron

I do not believe because it seems that the majority of people who voted to leave, would not change their minds now (even if Cameron is no longer in power). This proves that the vote for the Brexit is a vote by conviction

 

[Sunleader]

Allow me to be perfectly clear, My opinion haven't changed for a bit in this matters. I simply withholding what i have to say, because right now, it's not to time to put these matters to their well deserved place, and until the current in world situations where this can kick up the power balance not come to their conclusion i will let it slide.

But only until than. That far you boys have the chance to talk rubbish and get nowhere with it, but after that?

Spoiler

there is a wisdom in silence, when you know with a few well placed sentence you can turn the whole world around.

Oh dont worry. I wasnt including you there.
I have a Good Memory. And I have not in the slightest forgotten what sort of stance you take on this.

And
I did in fact consider naming the example of People suggesting to let Millions of Refugees Drown effectively committing Genocide against them because they consider them potential ISIS Terrorists regardless of them having anything to do with ISIS.
But as large parts of these movements are Christians. It was not an good example in this case. So I dropped the idea.

 

[Adept]

I do not believe because it seems that the majority of people who voted to leave, would not change their minds now (even if Cameron is no longer in power). This proves that the vote for the Brexit is a vote by conviction

Ok, I can see what you mean. There seemed to be a lot of shock after the vote, and you probably remember the spike on "What is the European Union" Google searches.

What we have seen is a lot of "this will make the politicians / the elite listen". I'd say for a large fraction the vote wasn't about the EU, but about internal politics in the UK.

Also 52% is really slim compared to 65%, and with a much higher turnout. At the very least, we can say the choise between the two options was clearly made, and more so than in the UK.

 

[beelbeebub]

The Brexit turnout was in the mid 70's IIRC which is high for the UK although low for France.

The final numbers were:
Leave 17.4m (38.6%)
Remain 16.1m (35.7%)
No vote 11.5m (25.5%)

As for the "conviction" of the UK voters. There is significant anecdotal evidence that many people did not know what they were voting for and voted on some false evidence i.e. the Leave claim that Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU or that the UK could be forced into merging it's armed forces into an EU army which were and are clearly false.

As for the "conviction" of the French, this is a false argument. Patrick is saying that because some people voted for Marcon because they did not want Le Peen, their vote is somehow invalid? If you only have a single round of votes then Patrick would claim that only 24% of people voted for the winner (Marcon) and therefore it is not a legitimate president.

If you wish to avoid this you have a second round run off between 2 candidates and by definition some people will vote for a candidate they did not vote for in the first round (and according to Patrick therefore have less "conviction").

 

[Minti2]

You are not being fair here. In comparing apples to apples, you should remember that the Brexit win was largely a protest against David Cameron and the state of politics in the UK. Turnout was also quite low.

If you think only a small fraction of the French back Marcon, then the same is true of the UK citizens and Brexit.

Strange, anyone i know who voted out, wanted out of the E.U, not a vote against Camaron/politics, and not one has changed their mind when any discussions comes up about Brexit(not often these days mind, as most people are just getting on with their normal routines)

I know for myself when voting in, it was about the E.U not politics for me, but hey what do i know, i only live here! i forget your a master of all things.