General / Off-Topic The coming French elections

Strange, anyone i know who voted out, wanted out of the E.U, not a vote against Camaron/politics, and not one has changed their mind when any discussions comes up about Brexit(not often these days mind, as most people are just getting on with their normal routines)

Do you mean "did not change their minds" or actually "did not change their reading habits"?
You could debuke many of the blatantly false brexit campaign claims with facts and figures, all it did was change the narrative from "we'll be better off" to "you're theatening us" to "we shall sink heads up".

That's more a cheap salesman pitch (also change management 101 - you can get people to adopt the greatest rubbish, if you manage to convince them it's their own idea and just get rid of the naysayers - regardless how valid their poits) than a valid discussion.


Same goes for France btw: "Many of the widely shared perceptions that shaped the electoral debate are statistically unfounded."
http://www.politico.eu/article/iner...anuel-macron-reformism-france-elections-2017/

The disposable income inequality f.ex. in France is lower than in Germany which is lower than in the UK (respective data in one of the other threads).
 
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The Brexit turnout was in the mid 70's IIRC which is high for the UK although low for France.

The final numbers were:
Leave 17.4m (38.6%)
Remain 16.1m (35.7%)
No vote 11.5m (25.5%)

As for the "conviction" of the UK voters. There is significant anecdotal evidence that many people did not know what they were voting for and voted on some false evidence i.e. the Leave claim that Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU or that the UK could be forced into merging it's armed forces into an EU army which were and are clearly false.

As for the "conviction" of the French, this is a false argument. Patrick is saying that because some people voted for Marcon because they did not want Le Peen, their vote is somehow invalid? If you only have a single round of votes then Patrick would claim that only 24% of people voted for the winner (Marcon) and therefore it is not a legitimate president.

If you wish to avoid this you have a second round run off between 2 candidates and by definition some people will vote for a candidate they did not vote for in the first round (and according to Patrick therefore have less "conviction").

You're right
about the turnout. I misremembered it to be lower than the 72.2% that it actually was.
 
Strange, anyone i know who voted out, wanted out of the E.U, not a vote against Camaron/politics, and not one has changed their mind when any discussions comes up about Brexit(not often these days mind, as most people are just getting on with their normal routines)

I know for myself when voting in, it was about the E.U not politics for me, but hey what do i know, i only live here! i forget your a master of all things.

Given that the day after the vote so many were googling "what is the EU", and given that the main source of information was the propaganda of pro-brexit press, it is a fair assumption that most of the electorate had no idea at all of what they were voting for.
 
And still don't, I'd claim.

I agree.

The propaganda hasn't abated, it's merely shifted. Before it was all "That's just project fear" and "They will be begging to give us a bespoke great deal". Now it's all, "They're trying to wreck our election!" and "No deal is better than a bad deal" whilst at the same time saying...

C--IrW_W0AAElzS.jpg

Yet much of the leave demographic still doesn't seem to understand they've been lied to.

There has been a shift in public opinion though.
 
Pandering to it. And not Blaming it for everything wrong is two different things.
Your Irrational Blaming of Religion as Evil and the illogical assumption that Religion is causing Terrorism is simply not making sense to us.

People will always find a reason to be pricks :p
And they will always lay out whatever Philosophy they got to Justify it.

Just so you know. Your Name as Antitheist Crusader. Is not a Bad Example. Not a Few People want to Eradicate the entirety of the Middle East. Saying we should just Carpet Bomb the Entire Area and Raze the Cities.
Genociding the entire Muslim Population to get rid of that Religion as Evil.
You think thats less evil than ISIS ? :)

As much as i share sam Harris's disdain for religion (this reply is to both fuzzy and sunleader), i don't believe in carpet bombing or nuking places just because there may be some terrorists there, the killing of civilians on purpose is never justified and i don't even think Sam Harris himself would really endorse such a strike despite that quote, if he would then he is wrong plain and simple. I myself want the middle east to thrive and the Muslims that do come here to integrate as well as the first generation did, that's why i support Majid Nawaz, a former extremist and still a practising Muslim who wants to help turn vulnerable Muslims away from extremism, i support the two state solution, and i support Kurdish independence, my point being that whilst i hate religion, i don't hate people, i'm actually interested in helping people, believe it or not i''m not actually a Crusader, my name is supposed to be a joke since as an Antitheist, i despise the idea crusades as much as jihad. So whilst i'm not waalking back my criticism of religion, i hope you can at least understand that i'm neither racist nor Anti Muslim, but rather, Anti Islam, Anti Christianity (example: despise Christianity, but have Christian friends and family). Edit: i will say one thing in defence of Sam Harris and nukes, he's not talking about a deliberate genocide of Muslims in the way Hitler deliberately murdered the Jewish people , he's talking about a highly unlikely self defence scenario should a terrorist group ever get hold of a nuclear arsenal, and that's not about killing people of a particular faith, it's about destroying launch capability, but i don't think that would ever happen, and if it did it would probably be the end for humanity as a whole.
 
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Minonian

Banned
Oh dont worry. I wasnt including you there.
I have a Good Memory. And I have not in the slightest forgotten what sort of stance you take on this.

And
I did in fact consider naming the example of People suggesting to let Millions of Refugees Drown effectively committing Genocide against them because they consider them potential ISIS Terrorists regardless of them having anything to do with ISIS.
But as large parts of these movements are Christians. It was not an good example in this case. So I dropped the idea.

Than understand this! You can't talk out of ideology rubbish, you cannot always say the truth, (what you think it's truth) you cannot always repeat lies just to weaken your enemies position. Because everything you do and say? Have an effect. You just unlike me, not aware of this. Don't see the waves in the water what the stones what you threw in it caused. You can too keep your mouth shut, to at least say the truth in the right time. And right now how the world looks alike, what terrorism causes? It's better to remain silent, and let other people to take care of it. So just like i remain silent to not empower something worst than the Islamic terrorism.
 
the killing of civilians on purpose is never justified and i don't even think Sam Harris himself would really endorse such a strike despite that quote,

..."I don't think he would endorse the exact thing he just endorsed." Would he ever say anything like this?

Why wouldn't he hold such abhorent beliefs? If a Muslim said that the West needs to be preemptively levelled with nuclear weapons you'd be falling over yourself to call Islam a backwards and dangerous ideology. When an atheist says it you're trying to say that he didn't really mean it.

Can you see how this looks too those of us who do not hold a specific ideology on such matters? I frankly don't know how many Muslims, Christians, atheists, Buddhists, or Hindus I know because I never ask that. It's simply not important to me. But you are judging personal traits and likely patterns of thinking based upon this, and conveniently putting your own demographic into "civilized", even when they say horrible things, whilst calling alternatives "extremist".

It's very much a pot and kettle situation.
 
..."I don't think he would endorse the exact thing he just endorsed." Would he ever say anything like this?

Why wouldn't he hold such abhorent beliefs? If a Muslim said that the West needs to be preemptively levelled with nuclear weapons you'd be falling over yourself to call Islam a backwards and dangerous ideology. When an atheist says it you're trying to say that he didn't really mean it.

Can you see how this looks too those of us who do not hold a specific ideology on such matters? I frankly don't know how many Muslims, Christians, atheists, Buddhists, or Hindus I know because I never ask that. It's simply not important to me. But you are judging personal traits and likely patterns of thinking based upon this, and conveniently putting your own demographic into "civilized", even when they say horrible things, whilst calling alternatives "extremist".

It's very much a pot and kettle situation.

Well i see your point and if i were to meet Sam Harris i'd definitely have to confront him on that issue.
 
Well i see your point and if i were to meet Sam Harris i'd definitely have to confront him on that issue.

So, do you now hate atheism? Is it a poison? Even though you will 'have no problems with most atheists, it only takes a few vocal ones to ruin it?'. I doubt it. :)

If its your group, 'its a weird individual'. If its in another group, its proof you rightfully 'hate' and 'despise' that entire group. With the usual 'I have nothing against the people, I only despise and hate all their believes, even when I dont actually bother to ask them what they are.'. Its not very consistent or intellectually honest.
 

Minonian

Banned
Oh dont worry. I wasnt including you there.
I have a Good Memory. And I have not in the slightest forgotten what sort of stance you take on this.

And
I did in fact consider naming the example of People suggesting to let Millions of Refugees Drown effectively committing Genocide against them because they consider them potential ISIS Terrorists regardless of them having anything to do with ISIS.
But as large parts of these movements are Christians. It was not an good example in this case. So I dropped the idea.

Take 2. I never said let em drown. What i said do not let em come, turn them back. Understand the difference? I don't really feel empathy toward them? Also true. You know why? because there is a thing what i understood long long years before the people demanding your help! ( Yes you read that right! )They are not asking but demanding your help. They are abusing it, they don't say thanks they don't even grateful for it just using you up. And after this happened? Turning away you and never seen or hear about them, until... They are need help again.

Do you ever been an emotional trash bin, or the guy everyone asked help for? Or you ever had drinking buddies, whom only your friend that far while you have money? I did... And had enough these kind of demanding backstabbing so called friends, and acquaintances for a lifetime! Do you think these refugees (A lot of them are illegal economical migrants) are any better? let me assure you! they are not. They are not really need in help, what they want is to give em everything what you stupid enough to give, and after that? They will laughing on you behind on your back. Or just like the fuel rats! Call them out, and after that? Shoot you down.

It does matter whom you allow in your home, and whom not? Whom you help, and whom not? Neither of this can do without careful consideration, and deliberation of your resources.
Do i looks like cold insensitive and calculating? Damn straight i'm! And you know what? I have a pretty good reason to be like this.

Do i turned my back to everything and everyone? No i'm not! But i think twice whom and how to help, whom i let in to my life. And you know what? I'm right about it!
I don't let my good intentions to be abused!
 
Than understand this! You can't talk out of ideology rubbish, you cannot always say the truth, (what you think it's truth) you cannot always repeat lies just to weaken your enemies position. Because everything you do and say? Have an effect. You just unlike me, not aware of this. Don't see the waves in the water what the stones what you threw in it caused. You can too keep your mouth shut, to at least say the truth in the right time. And right now how the world looks alike, what terrorism causes? It's better to remain silent, and let other people to take care of it. So just like i remain silent to not empower something worst than the Islamic terrorism.

There you go again with the Riffles :)
Why dont you just say what you think than ? :)

You are always doing it like this. Pointing out how you Realized something that obviously everyone Realized. Claiming we all know it but nobody dares saying it.
And i told you back then. I got no Idea what your Talking about :p

Albeit I can assume its some TinFoil theory of Muslim taking over Europe or something :p



Also the other statement is Incorrect ;)
Lying and being Wrong is two different things.
Honest People can be Wrong. Because they might say something that they tought to be True which turned out not to be.
Lying however means People know their Statement is Wrong and yet they claim it to be right regardless of it being Wrong :)

So while indeed nobody can always say the Truth. Because he might end up wrong at something.
He might actually never Lie. Because he might in Fact not have known better when he said it.
 
So, do you now hate atheism? Is it a poison? Even though you will 'have no problems with most atheists, it only takes a few vocal ones to ruin it?'. I doubt it. :)

If its your group, 'its a weird individual'. If its in another group, its proof you rightfully 'hate' and 'despise' that entire group. With the usual 'I have nothing against the people, I only despise and hate all their believes, even when I dont actually bother to ask them what they are.'. Its not very consistent or intellectually honest.

I don't have anything against individuals unless they express the dangerous belliefs such as sharia, but i still oppose the entire religious establishment because religion teaches lies, even the non violent parts are filled with lies such as noahs ark, the earth is six thousand years old and winged horses, so my opposition to religion is based on that. As for bad atheists, there are plenty i'm sure, i have never defended Atheists who do ideological crimes, such as Soviet Russia, you will find that i have no love for extremism of any kind just by looking back through this thread. So please stop saying i hate an entire group of people, i hate their religion in much the same way that i hate conservative politics, doesn't mean i can't have Muslim or Conservative friends.
 
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Take 2. I never said let em drown. What i said do not let em come, turn them back. Understand the difference? I don't really feel empathy toward them? Also true. You know why? because there is a thing what i understood long long years before the people demanding your help! ( Yes you read that right! )They are not asking but demanding your help. They are abusing it, they don't say thanks they don't even grateful for it just using you up. And after this happened? Turning away you and never seen or hear about them, until... They are need help again.

Do you ever been an emotional trash bin, or the guy everyone asked help for? Or you ever had drinking buddies, whom only your friend that far while you have money? I did... And had enough these kind of demanding backstabbing so called friends, and acquaintances for a lifetime! Do you think these refugees (A lot of them are illegal economical migrants) are any better? let me assure you! they are not. They are not really need in help, what they want is to give em everything what you stupid enough to give, and after that? They will laughing on you behind on your back. Or just like the fuel rats! Call them out, and after that? Shoot you down.

It does matter whom you allow in your home, and whom not? Whom you help, and whom not? Neither of this can do without careful consideration, and deliberation of your resources.
Do i looks like cold insensitive and calculating? Damn straight i'm! And you know what? I have a pretty good reason to be like this.

Do i turned my back to everything and everyone? No i'm not! But i think twice whom
and how to help, whom i let in to my life. And you know what? I'm right about it!
I don't let my good intentions to be abused!

1.
We had this already.
And I asked you how back then.

Which you never Specified.
Because Refugees on Open Ocean with barely enough Rations to come here in the First Place. Will Drown if you turn them back.
You cant force em back without effectively going to War with the Nations down there because you need to cross their Territory for it.

And your Answer was pretty simple. "Thats their Problem and their Fault. Not ours"
And sorry but you can turn it all you want. That effectively is saying let them Drown :)


2.
Yes.
In Fact to a very Problematic degree. Because for some Reason Women like me alot. They like to have me around them. And they tell me anything and everything. Just somehow dont consider the option of going out with me unless I really press the issue lol.
Something I often get told by my Friends to just make use of. Because they obviously Trust me. But I am not the type to abuse a weak situation or the trust of someone who came to me for help.
I do get annoyed however if People constantly tell me about their Problems and refuse to let me Help.
Actually had a big fight about that with a Girl back then. Cause she constantly told me about all her Problems. Partially stuff I could have helped with a Great deal due to my Family. Yet she always refused to let me help or even try solving it. Thus getting me really off. But well different Story.

I also had quite enough people who betrayed me. Laughed at me behind my back. Etc etc. By the way.
But I learned to not get myself worked up over it. I am well enough off to just be nice anyways. Its not hurting me. So why get worked up over it ? :)
Many of them noticed they made a mistake later on when they really needed help.

On Refugees. Most of em are actually needing Help. The Question is if they might overstate their troubles.
You See Mate. People fleeing from other parts due to their bad lifes and claiming they are Syrian because that gets em in due to the War.
Can you Blame them ? Their Situation despite not having War is often not that much better.
And we are not so Poor that it will Hurt us to take them in. In Fact many of them are useful to us.

The Fuel Rats are a Great Example.
Sure. They might now and then be Shot Down after being Called.
Sure them being Nice might be abused by some People. Yet they keep doing it :)




To the last.
Yes you are. But I would not consider that an badge of Honor. Regardless of your Reasons.
By that Reasoning Germany starting WW2 after being Shunned and Humiliated would be Justified and the Right Course of Action. *gg*

But. The Fundamental difference is.

I am the Type who wants to Save as many as Possible even if it means Risking that theres a few among them which might not deserve it.
You on the other Hand are the Type who will Abandon most to prevent the few which might not deserve it from being allowed in alongside.

And thats an absurd difference.
Because it means. When I get a Boat with 200 Men and 20 Woman and get told. There is a Man aboerd which might be a Criminal. Then I will of course check the Men. But even if it means letting that one Criminal In. Even if I knew for sure he is there.
I would take the 220 People in.
You on the other Hand would likely say. Ok the 20 Women we safe. The rest you can leave to die cause you dont want the Criminal to get in.

And sorry. But killing 199 People is in my eyes not an Justified Tradeoff.
 
Not everyone in real need of help who appears so.


Yes.
And as I said above.
If I got the Choice to give Aid to some People which might not Deserve it. But alongside also Safe the Vast amounts of People who actually need Aid.
Or to abandon the vast amount of People which actually need that aid. Just to deny it to the People who dont.

Then my Choice is Obvious.
So what if there is People among them who aint from Syria.
What if there is People who just want to escape from their poor life in a third world country ?

To me thats nowhere even close to being a good enough reason to Abandon the People which need Help.
 
I don't have anything against individuals unless they express the dangerous belliefs such as sharia, but i still oppose the entire religious establishment because religion teaches lies, even the non violent parts are filled with lies such as noahs ark, the earth is six thousand years old and winged horses, so my opposition to religion is based on that. As for bad atheists, there are plenty i'm sure, i have never defended Atheists who do ideological crimes, such as Soviet Russia, you will find that i have no love for extremism of any kind just by looking back through this thread. So please stop saying i hate an entire group of people, i hate their religion in much the same way that i hate conservative politics, doesn't mean i can't have Muslim or Conservative friends.

Again, and we're at attempt 162 now: is it at all possible for you to comprehend that those bolded ideas are not believed in by many Christians? The dominant religion in Belgium is catholicism, I know plenty of Belgian Catholics, and noone believes any of the things you mentioned. Are you familiar with the expression 'to tar with the same brush'?

So we're right back to where you should be saying "I think the idea the earth is 6000 years old is stupid." rather than "religion is terrible!". Nuance is not your friend it seems...
 
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