General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Stigbob]

Apparently over here it may already be on the cards with things like going to places like pubs you would have to be vaccinated OR be tested at the door.

When you get vaccinated you get a card with vaccination details on it that they update with your second jab, it's wallet sized so you can show them that at the door. A bit like carrying ID to prove you can buy beer.

They've said it's voluntary for the publican though (so far) and wont be a thing until everyone's been offered the jab so you'll probably get vaccinated and unvaccinated pubs. If the more recent polling of pro-vax numbers are correct the vaccinated pubs will far more financially successful.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Coming from the same head of state that falsely said the AstraZeneca vaccine was ineffective on over 65 year olds based on absolutely nothing, it sounds like a load of hot air really.

It is recognized by the European Union that the UK has exported no dose toward the continent and that Astrazeneca has honored only 30% of the deliveries provided in the contracts over periods predetermined in advance.

With the aim of vaccinating the British population as a priority. This explains why the European Union is going to do the same thing with Astrazeneca vaccines produced on the continent to vaccinate the peoples of the European Union as a priority.

I heard on TV last night that the UK might have difficulty injecting the second dose to the entire people, being limited by the domestic production.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Apparently over here it may already be on the cards with things like going to places like pubs you would have to be vaccinated OR be tested at the door.

Who is the best solution and allows to keep the spirit of western and democratic freedom.

In addition, the vaccination card is an aberration because there will be variants regularly and scientists still do not know the duration of immunization of vaccines.

Either way the certificate will disappear quickly because the virus will lose its virulence in the futur and will become a seasonal virus like a classic flu.

Finally, the vaccination card will bring more complications than it solves.

The mix of vaccine card / instantaneous test is the right solution.

 

[Gortron]

It is recognized by the European Union that the UK has exported no dose toward the continent and that Astrazeneca has honored only 30% of the deliveries provided in the contracts over periods predetermined in advance.

With the aim of vaccinating the British population as a priority. This explains why the European Union is going to do the same thing with Astrazeneca vaccines produced on the continent to vaccinate the peoples of the European Union as a priority.

I heard on TV last night that the UK might have difficulty injecting the second dose to the entire people, being limited by the domestic production.

If exports of Pfizer were blocked then it would prevent people getting second doses of that. Enough Oxford AZ vaccine is being made to keep up with second dose demand but the remaining 5 million of 10 million doses from India isn’t coming yet so the roll-out of first jabs is being paused through May to ensure second doses can be meet on time.

Covid vaccine: Why did EU take AstraZeneca to court?

The EU has lost a legal battle over its attempt to force AstraZeneca to deliver more vaccines to the bloc.

www.bbc.com

I read the other day the U.K. has pretty much stopped giving first doses of Pfizer and switched entirely to AZ.

I don’t think the EU stopping AZ vaccines coming to the U.K. would make any difference since they aren’t being exported here anyway. There would be no point the U.K. supplying doses to the EU from here. It would just slow our roll-out down and make not difference to yours because you aren’t using what you already have.

It’s also important to remember that the U.K. is part of the supply chain for the Pfizer vaccine so it’s a symbiotic relationship. It’s not as if we are just being sent vaccines without contributing to them. That is why other EU countries are against banning exports to the U.K. The U.K. could play that game to and it would make things worse for everyone.

 

[Patrick_68000]

If exports of Pfizer were blocked then it would prevent people getting second doses of that. Enough Oxford AZ vaccine is being made to keep up with second dose demand but the remaining 5 million of 10 million doses from India isn’t coming yet so the roll-out of first jabs is being paused through May to ensure second doses can be meet on time.

Covid vaccine: Why did EU take AstraZeneca to court?

The EU has lost a legal battle over its attempt to force AstraZeneca to deliver more vaccines to the bloc.

www.bbc.com

I read the other day the U.K. has pretty much stopped giving first doses of Pfizer and switched entirely to AZ.

I don’t think the EU stopping AZ vaccines coming to the U.K. would make any difference since they aren’t being exported here anyway. There would be no point the U.K. supplying doses to the EU from here. It would just slow our roll-out down and make not difference to yours because you aren’t using what you already have.

It’s also important to remember that the U.K. is part of the supply chain for the Pfizer vaccine so it’s a symbiotic relationship. It’s not as if we are just being sent vaccines without contributing to them. That is why other EU countries are against banning exports to the U.K. The U.K. could play that game to and it would make things worse for everyone.

It seems that the United Kingdom and the European Union are planning to reach an agreement on Saturday.

 

[Patrick_68000]

If exports of Pfizer were blocked then it would prevent people getting second doses of that. Enough Oxford AZ vaccine is being made to keep up with second dose demand but the remaining 5 million of 10 million doses from India isn’t coming yet so the roll-out of first jabs is being paused through May to ensure second doses can be meet on time.

Covid vaccine: Why did EU take AstraZeneca to court?

The EU has lost a legal battle over its attempt to force AstraZeneca to deliver more vaccines to the bloc.

www.bbc.com

I read the other day the U.K. has pretty much stopped giving first doses of Pfizer and switched entirely to AZ.

I don’t think the EU stopping AZ vaccines coming to the U.K. would make any difference since they aren’t being exported here anyway. There would be no point the U.K. supplying doses to the EU from here. It would just slow our roll-out down and make not difference to yours because you aren’t using what you already have.

It’s also important to remember that the U.K. is part of the supply chain for the Pfizer vaccine so it’s a symbiotic relationship. It’s not as if we are just being sent vaccines without contributing to them. That is why other EU countries are against banning exports to the U.K. The U.K. could play that game to and it would make things worse for everyone.

"The UK has a second dose problem" warns Jean-Yves le Drian, the French Minister for Foreign Affairs.

"There are as many vaccinated with the second dose in France as in the United Kingdom", he said.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs wished to recall that the UK is dependent on European production. For the moment Brussels has sent 21 million doses to Great Britain and has not received any product from the latter. A situation that cannot last, according to the minister.

Europe has tightened the conditions for exporting anti-Covid vaccines outside the EU. If he refutes the term blockade, the Minister of Foreign Affairs was severe against the AstraZeneca laboratory, mainly targeted by this measure, explaining that he simply wanted "respect of contracts".

That is clear. And Saturday they'll find a deal, let's hope

 

[sewerratuk]

"The UK has a second dose problem" warns Jean-Yves le Drian, the French Minister for Foreign Affairs.

"There are as many vaccinated with the second dose in France as in the United Kingdom", he said.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs wished to recall that the UK is dependent on European production. For the moment Brussels has sent 21 million doses to Great Britain and has not received any product from the latter. A situation that cannot last, according to the minister.

Europe has tightened the conditions for exporting anti-Covid vaccines outside the EU. If he refutes the term blockade, the Minister of Foreign Affairs was severe against the AstraZeneca laboratory, mainly targeted by this measure, explaining that he simply wanted "respect of contracts".

That is clear. And Saturday they'll find a deal, let's hope

Sigh. Once again, it not about the U.K. and the E.U. its about business.
Stop trying to make it an anti U.K. thing.

 

[KnezBP]

I have a slightly narrow view of this discussion, in the sense that I don't care whether you think vaccines are super duper manna from the state or an anti-christ mark of the beast.

The government shouldn't be allowed to force vaccines upon people.

And no coercion either. Kind've in reply to that communist fellow who replied on the first page.

Unless I'm offered a tax cut for all the services I'm paying for but denied access to. Then we can negotiate terms.

 

[sewerratuk]

Ok I have done it and had the AZ vaccine (don’t worry Patrick, my doctor said it was earmarked for France but no one wants it there ). So far no side effects except I seem to have my location tracked on bing maps and I’m pretty sure a drone followed me home

Gotta say to counter any hypocrisy, yes I was dubious about the fast tracking of this and still am but I’m playing my part.

LONG LIVE BILL GATES... Anyone want to buy my MacBook.... Where did that come from...

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

I have a slightly narrow view of this discussion, in the sense that I don't care whether you think vaccines are super duper manna from the state or an anti-christ mark of the beast.

The government shouldn't be allowed to force vaccines upon people.

And no coercion either. Kind've in reply to that communist fellow who replied on the first page.

Unless I'm offered a tax cut for all the services I'm paying for but denied access to. Then we can negotiate terms.

I have the opposite viewpoint.
Already litigated to death, so we shan't go through it again- in brief: ideological solutions fail vs a biochemical problem.
Only a biological solution works. Societal construction did not consider this particular circumstance at the time of founding.

But you have a fair point about the taxes. Paying for things you do not use is wrong.

However you have to pay for your externalities. If you don't pay for what you caused, then others have to- which brings us back to not paying for what you don't use.
The itemized list is exhaustive. It would include

Spoiler: A partial list

- the next stimulus package

• the next Wall Street Bailout
• the ICU bills
• the cost of lost earnings
• the costs of lost jobs
• the costs of long term disabilities
• the cost of lost lives ( let us just limit that to insurance payouts. Reimburse all the companies for all the deaths they have to pay for caused by not vaccinating.)
• Displacement costs for ICU's that can't handle regular work as they're full of Covid ( another set of deaths and disability and employment costs)
• Medical staff training for replacements as they die/quit/burn out
• Ambulance tyres, oil, gas, insurance, parts
• Bedsheets and medical consumables, including drugs, Oxygen tubing, needles, staffing, - billed at hospital cost.
• funereal expenses
• hospital upkeep and repairs

...

Working all that out is out of my ability, by miles, but just off the top of my head-
This stimulus package was 2 trillion for this year. If there's another one next year because of non vaccinated refuseniks, say 100 million US citizens, their divided cost just for that alone is 20, 000 USD each.

The cost of an O-AZ vaccine is $4.
Maybe your country can afford more action of this type by money printing shenanigans , but mine won't. Eventually currency will collapse if this continues. It isn't sustainable.

 

[EdzUp]

I have a slightly narrow view of this discussion, in the sense that I don't care whether you think vaccines are super duper manna from the state or an anti-christ mark of the beast.

The government shouldn't be allowed to force vaccines upon people.

And no coercion either. Kind've in reply to that communist fellow who replied on the first page.

Unless I'm offered a tax cut for all the services I'm paying for but denied access to. Then we can negotiate terms.

When it is to stop something that is a danger to everybody in the country as a whole then I disagree, after all because of people denying their kids the MMR vaccine measles was on the increase and schools have denied children access unless they are vaccinated so what is the difference now.

As for paying for services you never use in the UK some pay the BBC a licence to broadcast to countries like India etc yet don't live there

Ref: https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/sc...cine-fines-measles-outbreaks-europe-australia

 

[KnezBP]

I have the opposite viewpoint.

Oh heck no. I will not withstand an opposing opinion to my own, good sir.

But you have a fair point about the taxes. Paying for things you do not use is wrong.

I fairness, Robin (and I may have misunderstood your point) that's not what I was arguing. My point was that I shouldn't have to pay taxes for services I would otherwise have access to because I have an opinion deemed incorrect by the government. That can lead to a very bad place.

But I kinda dug myself into a muddy mire of my own making there because my main point was that It's completely dystopian and illiberal to have people walk around with their 'freedom papers' in order to engage in normal everyday consumer activity.

 

[KnezBP]

I'm so disappointment in Australia though, I have to say. I don't mean this to bash Australians, who are awesome, but I've been embarrassed to be associated with the nation of Australia and their police state behaviour.

Not that the UK is much better.

And don't get me started on Canada.

Maybe I'm just being all blackpilled but I feel like all chances of my nieces and nephews living in a free country is all but gone at this point.

 

[sewerratuk]

I'm so disappointment in Australia though, I have to say. I don't mean this to bash Australians, who are awesome, but I've been embarrassed to be associated with the nation of Australia and their police state behaviour.

Not that the UK is much better.

And don't get me started on Canada.

Maybe I'm just being all blackpilled but I feel like all chances of my nieces and nephews living in a free country is all but gone at this point.

You never were living in a free country, it was an illusion

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Oh heck no. I will not withstand an opposing opinion to my own, good sir.

I fairness, Robin (and I may have misunderstood your point) that's not what I was arguing. My point was that I shouldn't have to pay taxes for services I would otherwise have access to because I have an opinion deemed incorrect by the government. That can lead to a very bad place.

But I kinda dug myself into a muddy mire of my own making there because my main point was that It's completely dystopian and illiberal to have people walk around with their 'freedom papers' in order to engage in normal everyday consumer activity.

Viruses don't negotiate.
Adapt, or dig more graves. It's that simple.

"Free countries" are a human conceit. We survive in an actual physical environment, with immutable laws that supercede anything anybody ever wrote down.

The Universe does not care. Survive or perish by your wits and adaptability. It never changed.

 

[EdzUp]

I'm so disappointment in Australia though, I have to say. I don't mean this to bash Australians, who are awesome, but I've been embarrassed to be associated with the nation of Australia and their police state behaviour.

Not that the UK is much better.

And don't get me started on Canada.

Maybe I'm just being all blackpilled but I feel like all chances of my nieces and nephews living in a free country is all but gone at this point.

Nobody is free you are all slaves to currency

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Getting my first one Monday.

I tend to view this as I did when I needed shots to travel abroad or when we (UK) were at school and we were just told, 'you're getting your BCG'. It's just a thing, like paying tax, looking before you cross the road, lying during an interview. Something that we just all do. No politics, no conspiracy, nothing to 'fight back' over.

 

[Stigbob]

I have a slightly narrow view of this discussion, in the sense that I don't care whether you think vaccines are super duper manna from the state or an anti-christ mark of the beast.

The government shouldn't be allowed to force vaccines upon people.

And no coercion either. Kind've in reply to that communist fellow who replied on the first page.

Unless I'm offered a tax cut for all the services I'm paying for but denied access to. Then we can negotiate terms.

If you are happy to put yourself, your family and anyone you meet at risk whilst denying yourself access to any services that are gated behind a vaccine passport that's your problem.

Meanwhile the majority of the human race will be taking advantage of the proven solution and enjoying things getting back to normal.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm so disappointment in Australia though, I have to say. I don't mean this to bash Australians, who are awesome, but I've been embarrassed to be associated with the nation of Australia and their police state behaviour.

Not that the UK is much better.

And don't get me started on Canada.

Maybe I'm just being all blackpilled but I feel like all chances of my nieces and nephews living in a free country is all but gone at this point.

You are confusing the inconvenience of precautions against the greatest medical threat we've faced in living memory taken to save lives and limit damage with living under a totalitarian regime.

 

[[PS4] Lorenzo Waringos]

Here's the rub, we're way too deep into the 'post truth' era. Name one thing and I bet there's a conspiracy surrounding it. They call this the Information Age, the reality is, there is too much information out there. People are unable to pick through it all. The way we receive our information has drastically changed and has so many other things determining our acceptance of that information. In a hypothetical world there are a couple of political parties, one staunchly stands for this, the other, staunchly for that. This could be a simple issue of.......er.......an economic model. Weirdly, one group will accept things like this vaccine, the other group will not. That obviously is a massive generalisation and not going to be true in all cases. But what starts out an interest group for one thing then starts moulding people into a range of things, no doubt, because of the way they get their information.

You can try legislating for people to have the vaccine, but you just create a harder pushback because people become more suspicious of it. You can try implying that there is no need for law but that the regular running of things will see those people excluded from some activities, that will just feed into their own suspicions. You can try to shame people into it. You can try all these things but many have made up their minds already. Any action you take against them ends up proving their fears for them.

I don't know what the answer is other than, we just have to sit this one out. For some of us that means waiting for others to catch up. For some of us that means possibly dying. For some us that means continuing to push back against an ever increasing authoritarian state.