The Dance of Pirate and Traders. Advice for both parties
- Thread starter Anopheles
- Start date
That's the core of the problem. ED isn't designed as a PvP focused game, it's a PvE game that allows PvP - the worst combination possible in my opinion. That's why I've written that they have no clue about PvP.
Designing a game around PvP is not the same as making PvP the only option or the only activity in that game.
Any game that allows PvP is a PvP game, no matter how much other things are there to do, no matter how many players don't do PvP or try to avoid PvP. If PvP is possible, PvP becomes the defining aspect of the game. Ignoring this is "having no clue about PvP", thinking that if PvP is possible that it would be rare and meaningful because most players will group together to fight the rare Pirate CMDR is "not having a clue about PvP".
Players who have no interest in PvP will always get dominated by players who play the game just for PvP. This can be directly because the PvP players are much more experienced in combat, know exactly what space ship is better for combat and what modules are needed. This can be indirectly by making certain parts of the game (systems or CGs) no-go areas for players not interested in PvP.
Reading the responses to the posting of the OP shows that many advices are about learning what to do in case of PvP, how to outfit a spaceship for trading with the threat of PvP. PvP is influencing how this game is played.
To get more on topic, ED isn't designed for player piracy. In my opinion the problem is, that ED is designed as a primarily PvE game.
Players playing a pirate need other Trader CMDRs, Trader CMDRs don't need Pirate CMDRs.
Pirate CMDRs can't pirate NPCs if they want to make some money.
Pirate CMDRs don't have usable tools to pirate Trader CMDRs that are better and more effective than the simple threat of killing.
By design ED does almost everything to discourage player piracy. And still there are many players who desperately want to play pirates. FD ignored the fact that a lot of players find trading boring and piracy and PvP very exiting and fun.
If FD had any clue about the effect of making PvP an option they would have designed the game in a way that balances PvP and piracy with the PvE elements of the game. Encouraging and discouraging certain activities, offering options for piracy and PvP for those who want it without affecting those who don't want it and making these options a much better choice for players than piracy and PvP against random players.
FD has no clue about PvP or the game is simply not ready for PvP and player piracy. I hope that at some point in the future we will see a lot of improvements for PvP and piracy in a way that makes the game fun for those who want to PvP an pirate other players and for those who don't want to get pirated or engaged in PvP.
Yup
On it's own, not true. It would.have just made the game whole lot less attractive to those who want to just trade, and a lot (most) of the traders who are currently in solo would have played something else instead. Noone HAS to play this game, people buy the game they WANT to play and some people just DON'T WANT to play competitivley with others. I would venture that most people who are currently playing in solo wouldn't have bought the game if they were to be forced into open.
There's not one thing in the above that would make a trader in solo WANT to come trade in open instead. I'm not saying that piracy is in a good place - far from it. Piracy needs a LOT of help but most of all piracy needs a way to pirate that doesn't demoralise traders, so that they WANT to interact with pirates. No targets simply means no piracy... as you pointed out earlier, traders don't need pirates, but pirates DO need traders. You can't force traders to become victims against their will coz they'd just stop playing, so you need to make them WANT it. How do you do that? Make it possible for pirates to get their loot without taking it all or destroying the victim, and put in strong penalties for destruction of a victim. There needs to be some fun in it for the trader if you want him to be there for the pirate. Give him every chance of an unfair death or loss of all his money or both that's impossible to avoid, and why WOULD he want to play with you?
If you make it fun for traders they'll come on their own. If you try to force them they'll resist or leave.
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why a trader would want a pirate that will steal some of hes cargo?.....
Exactly. As a trader, an interaction with a pirates is guaranteed to gain me NOTHING and there's every chance I'll lose EVERYTHING. To rub salt in the wound, the pirate'll get stuff-all consequences for it so he just won't care if he blows me up or not. Make it fun for me, give me a 50/50 chance of getting away (if I buy the right defensive gear etc), and at worst give me confidence that the pirate won't utterley destroy either my ship or my bank balance, and sure I'll play with you.
But as it stands right now, there's simply no reason why traders would want to play with pirates and every reason why they wouldn't.
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Eh, nope, traders don't need them, for any reason. Sure, they spice up the game, but they're not "needed" per se.
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So, you interdict me (and yes this is exactly my behavior when interdicted in any mode) I submit to the interdiction and the moment I'm back in normal space (usually before I can even see what interdicted me in the instance) I trigger a macro that directs power to engines, FA-off boosts, runs out the guns and redirects power to them. I've opened the range, prepared for a fight if one becomes necessary but since my hardpoints are deployed you know I'm not running yet. I'm maintaining a constant speed, but probably turning to face you in FA-off so that I can identify and get a basic clean/wanted scan off you but I'm not firing. If you're within range and you give me time I might KWS you too, if only to have an extra lever for use in negotiation but that would take a secondary priority to responding to your comms if there were any incoming.
Do you open comms and follow the "pirate" route, in which case you'll maybe get your 10 tons, but if its particularly high value I'll probably try and argue you down to 8 or offer you your 10 but you'll have to smuggle it to sell it. You'll definitely get something though, I dont want my shiny python all shot up if I can avoid it.
Do you just hit the trigger because I'm not sitting there like a helpless fish in a barrel, even though its clear I'm not looking to jump out just yet? If so fights on like Donkey Kong, brother. You'll get all the hurt I can put on target and if you checked out my modules before you interdicted me you'll know how much sizzle I can put on your hull if I land a shot and that I'm carrying SCBs as well as cargo cans... Win or lose, I'll be handing you a repair bill. I may not be the worlds best combat pilot but I aint exactly useless either
If you do the latter because your definition of "cooperating" is "rolling over and playing dead" and nothing else counts, then you are indeed poisoning the well and you're a pretty poor pirate. One that I'd be far less inclined to dance with in the future and would just do the boost/boost/highwake thing on you or say "to heck with it" and just open fire.
Because then he is playing euro truck simulator: space edition, instead of elite: Dangerous. For better or worse pirates are part of Elite.
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See this is where it all falls apart - you'd not get an interdiction attempt as you're in a ship that can fight back.
Now ask the question again saying you're in a T7 or T9 and you'll get told you will be shot for moving.
But a ship that can move and carry decent guns - you'll be ignored as you're not easy prey so not worth the effort.
So what? Some people LIKE playing euro truck sim in space, and who are you to tell them there's anything wrong with that? No, player piracy is NOT part of the game for traders unless they WANT it to be, so "like it or not" if you want your victims you better make sure it's fun for them too!
In Jordans defense (not that he has asked me as he speaks for himself) - he said "pirates are part of Elite."
Didn't say "player pirates"... and even in Solo you get NPC pirates.
So, excluding the Euro Truck snide remark - the rest of the comment is *technically* correct.
Granted, but there's been a lot of people who are *technically* right or *technically* not griefing or *technically* acting within the rules. We all know the difference between *technically* and *realistically*, just as we know this thread is about *player piracy* and not *npc piracy*.
I can see your point here. I'm not going to follow it up in detail because it does stray somewhat OT. Suffice to say that they are good and valid points.
This thread is about advice to pirates and traders who ARE playing those roles as envisioned by FD. If there is an "issue" anywhere it is that there isn't sufficient enforcement of how those roles operate in the ED universe. I'm afraid I have to admit that no matter how hard I try I can't come up with a way that there could be that didnt negatively impact other play styles so I'm keeping my mouth shut on that point.
At the end of the day, if we're playing ED in any of the ways it was designed for, we're all RP-ing. The folks that are in it for the combat alone, or for doing whatever it takes to MAX THE CREDITS!!!! who have no interest in playing "in character" but only in using the games mechanics to their best advantage no matter what will always be a problem for those that try to play it the way it was meant to be played. They bought the game same as we did and we're on as dodgy ground suggesting that they are somehow "doing it wrong" as they are saying the same to us.
I'm not sure that there's an answer to that and so threads like this that stay away from the PvP vs PvE wars but instead promote mutually satisfying gameplay for folks who arguably play in conflicting ways are a very good thing.
Because there are people that want ED to be more than a trucking simulator in space
Well, isn't that the whole risk/reward thing? Personally I prefer to fly a ship that has some decent teeth even if I'm primarily trading. It lets me defend my cargo and also go bounty hunting on the side. Sure I could be hauling as much cargo as my python can carry in a much cheaper base-spec T7 but then I'd be risking a heck of a lot more for the same reward. In a T7 I'd likely tuck my tail between my legs and try to run from even an AI threat above a wing of sideys. I prefer to fly something that can shoot back. It keeps the psycho seal-clubbers off my neck and lets me negotiate with "real" pirates as an equal.
We're not glorified truckers, we're the Elite Pilots Federation and we're the ones you pay to haul your cargo when it absolutely HAS to get through no matter if Hell itself bar the way. We're the East India Company, with broadsides on our "merchantmen" to match most navies and skippers who are prepared to USE them.
Did I say there is anything wrong with euro truck simulator? No, I didn't, you simply inferred I did. Euro truck simulator is fine, but it's not elite. Elite is not balanced to be euro truck simulator, it's never meant to be euro truck simulator.
And jockey is right, (never thought I'd say those words
) I never said player piracy, I said piracy. If I do fail to make it fun for them and they switch to solo, they will still encounter pirates, less charismatic and handsome ones to be sure but pirates nonetheless. It's almost like the devs planned for traders to encounter them all the time or something. Like it's needed or something.
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well I don't know about needed.. a factor to take into account or a cost of doing business
The folks that REALLY need pirates are bounty hunters - because without pirates they have no income at all. I'm fine with supplementing the profits of a trade run by going ratting so I guess I, at least, do need you guys But I AM the killer type - I kill anyone that tries to run. After the interdiction is successful, I do one of two things:
1) If the target is standing perfectly still, not trying to run, I'll say "hello", cargo scan them, and if they have something. I'll ask for a paltry 10 tons of cargo to be jettisoned as 'abandoned'. Then, they're free to go.
2) If they run, fight, boost, charge FSD, I kill them.
To me, it's win-win. I get to chase and kill them if they run, but if they co-operate, I don't "poison the well" for pirates and co-operative traders alike.
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So let me get this straight: You're running away, not co-operating. And I'm supposed to have a chance of getting your cargo without shooting you? lol-wut?
You can shoot at me but you still need to ask me for cargo if you're playing pirate. I'll stop and play along. If you just act like another player killer, as you've admitted you do, I'll just run and get away again. Your loss.
You still seem unable to see what happens from a traders point of view.
The vast majority of interdictions are from PKers. Cutting engines results in ship destruction. If it is a pirate and you stop and drop cargo there's still a likelihood of them destroying your ship. The best option is always open up space to buy time.
In your ideal world, where traders always stop, get charged a reasonable fee then get set free, you've turned piracy into boring tax collection from compliant traders. Is that fun? Euro-Tax-Collection Simulator?
I'm supposed to sacrifice my ship to every player killer just in case one turns out to be friendly pirate? lol-wot?
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You know perfectly well that your snide and constant likening of trading sans player piracy to euro truck sim is intended to imply that there IS something wrong with it. Stop playing the innocent. It doesn't fit you.
Oh and where do you get off with YOU deciding what is or is not elite? Did someone die and make you david braben? Since there has never been an elite game out of the last three where players could pirate or even attack each other it's just as accurate to say that no, player piracy is NOT elite. However what we DO have is a game where traders CAN avoid player pirates if they don't like it by switching mode, something that FDev have said they won't change, so I put it to you that THAT is elite, in 2015. This however is not a discourse on whether piracy belongs in the game - we all agree that it does. It's the ongoing search for a solution that suits BOTH sides of the equation, not just yours.
And jockey is right, (never thought I'd say those words
Then you're off topic. This thread is about player piracy and player trading, specifically. Why would anyone offer advice to NPC's? Again, stop playing the innocent.
You tread dangerous ground, trying to imply that player piracy is the same as npc piracy. If that's so then player traders are the same as player npc's too and you DON'T need player traders in open to have your fun. If it's NOT true that player and npc pirates are the same we return to the original argument that if you WANT your victims you better make it fun for them, and make sure the victim is getting something that that he personally values out of the encounter or he'll just jet off back to where you can't get him and where the pirates are more easily evaded, and all your clever wordplay justifications will be for naught.
So tell us, did you mean to say that players and npc's are interchangable or not? Coz no, player traders do NOT need player pirates. Bounty hunters need pirates, and pirates need traders.
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