The Difference Between PvP and "Griefing"

[Stigbob]

Having a negative reaction to a singular event does not equate to being griefed, people will get those everytime their team looses a match in Battlefield for example - Griefing amounts to bullying an indervidual, repeated unwanted behaviour focused on one player that is perpetrated by a single user or group of users. Being killed once by a player is not griefing and no definitoin of griefing remotely suggests that it is.

There's no need for anything to be repeated to qualify as griefing. For example a player using exploits to kill players in a busy station is a cheat (exploits) and a griefer (killing players by cheating then trying to harvest salt in the forum), he may never meet the same player twice but he's still obviously a griefer.

Anyway, if someone is really stupid enough to feel that getting blown up by a player is an act of griefing than I suggest they contact support. They'll recieve a reply telling them they'll look into the matter and then their email will be trashed as soon as support see it's an isolated instance of being blown up. That is the reality of it. Unless there is a provable pattern of abuse, the player has not been griefed. (this thread is pointless)

None of which relates to anything I've said.

There are very black and white definitions of what griefing is out there (in fact I found 0 that were open to interpretation - suprising being a definition and all) and to the mass populus they are and will always be what griefing is. 'Spin Doctor Cear Bears' on the Elite forum aside of course, they can continue to live in their own bubble.... Still doesn't change anything.

Post one then so I can poke big holes in it.

You are resorting to name calling because you can't put a coherent argument together, you just keep repeating your own subjective opinions.

 

[Zambrick]

Real simple, if you participate in PVP activities. Participate in all of them. If you arent doing it to begin with. Then why are you complaining about it?

Then why arent you and your genius friends running around and countering the BGS changes? So if you are not willing to actually do the work to counter it, then what are you complaining about?

You want this but you dont want that. You want to kill other players, but you dont want to actually be held accountable for it.

At what point are you going to finally decide that you might just be playing the wrong game? Battlefield, WoT, CoD, DoW3, DOTA2 all does it better. You want all the benefits of PVP while never risking anything. Just like those generic shooters and RTSs.

Its simple as that and you know it. You want zero risk and all of the reward. You also want the game to be easy and fully focused on a singular small rarely used aspect of the game. The least popular aspect of the game.

Do you really think FDEV is going to create anything to legitimize the way you play? Especially considering your group makes up one if not the smallest portion of the player base? Do you think it will be fiscally successful if FDEV pours money into a feature that almost no one likes in its current form? Do you think FDEV is going to break all the promises they made to the Kick Starter Backers who did not fund Call Of Duty in space?

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Thats good. And when you have to pay for a full rebuy on your ship PF bounties are rolled out, I dont want to hear you whining.

When the actually add the Karma system and the C&P system and it effects your game play, I dont want to hear you cry. When the upcoming Karma/C&P system blocks you from using star ports in secured systems or it takes all your assets and credits, I dont want to hear you complaining.

You will finally be subject to the very same risks that everyone else who plays in Open has to take. Can you take responsibility for your actions? Are you willing to be a real in game Criminal? Or do you just want to punch kids on the playground? Thats the question you need to ask yourself before you take such a hard line stance. If you are willing to accept any and all forms of punishment that will be dished out once this system is put in place, then we have no problem.

However I can guarantee you once it does. People like you will be out here whining and crying and demanding that it be turned back into GTA V in space. I doubt you have the conviction to be a real criminal in this game.

You wont hear me crying because I am a billionaire and any credit bounties dont bother me. I will wear them with pride.

 

[Zambrick]

Fair enough, guess there was a typo.



And I can understand why you dislike that, but either way, it's how the system is set up, and as I've said many times, it's not changing. Again: if you want to pull more people into open/pvping, which I respect as a goal, think up different and better ways to do it that haven't already been shot down by the devs repeatedly.

I thought FDEV could create gameplay around being a criminal would be good. You know like steeling ships, bank robberies, Data theft, Station Sabotage, Piracy.
They cant do that though. Instead they had to create the Punishment before the crime due some of the very same people who are complaining and whining in this thread.

Because they could not control their need to aggravate others for no reason, FDEV is going to have to create the system backwards. They will have to enact the entire Karma and C&P system now since they started with the PF Bounties.

Everyone else wanted them to create gameplay first but you cant have nice things when dealing with this lot.

 

[Zambrick]

You wont hear me crying because I am a billionaire and any credit bounties dont bother me. I will wear them with pride.

You did hear that one of the considered final level of the Karma and Punishment system is to take everything you have correct? You wont be a billionaire and you will have no assets. Its either that or a Shadow Ban. FDEV havent decided yet which one. Really they should give you a choice. You know, So you can play it your way.

 

[Stealthie]

Oooooo the threat of 'Open', a game mode I have played in exclusively since the original beta and only ever encountered PVP on a 3 occassions..... Ooooooooo so worried about those big bad PVP'ers.... So what if my ship is under equipped and blown up by another commander... Many civilian ships were blown up in WWII and were not equipped to fight back. It's the nature of things...

Well, I applaud your attempt at salt-mining but, again, it has nothing, at all, to do with the situation being discussed.

Fdev have given us a game which allows us to play in a variety of different way, in a variety of different modes.
I think it's perfectly reasonable to criticise the idea that, subsequently, people should be forced to play in a specific manner if they want all the benefits the game has to offer.

 

[EUS]

Many nice things were taken away from "griefing".
Cargo drops reduced by griefer actions, speeding now a thing due to griefers, large bounties capped @ 1M, long range smuggling missions, seeking luxuries, etc etc.
All must suffer from the actions of a few.

 

[sb413197]

Thats good. And when you have to pay for a full rebuy on your ship PF bounties are rolled out, I dont want to hear you whining.

When the actually add the Karma system and the C&P system and it effects your game play, I dont want to hear you cry. When the upcoming Karma/C&P system blocks you from using star ports in secured systems or it takes all your assets and credits, I dont want to hear you complaining.

You will finally be subject to the very same risks that everyone else who plays in Open has to take. Can you take responsibility for your actions? Are you willing to be a real in game Criminal? Or do you just want to punch kids on the playground? Thats the question you need to ask yourself before you take such a hard line stance. If you are willing to accept any and all forms of punishment that will be dished out once this system is put in place, then we have no problem.

However I can guarantee you once it does. People like you will be out here whining and crying and demanding that it be turned back into GTA V in space. I doubt you have the conviction to be a real criminal in this game.

As a guy who is a criminal at times, I have to say that sounds AWESOME. Being hunted by PVP bounty hunters; having to deal with being blocked out of stations (or better yet attacked as a hostile!); increased risks of real loss...it sounds like a lot of fun (although I have 3.7 billion in the bank it would be darn exciting to risk losing hundreds of millions). Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm really looking forward to it.

EDIT* missed the "take everything" line. Ok, that one might hurt LOL - I wouldn't like that...

 

[ALGOMATIC]

You did hear that one of the considered final level of the Karma and Punishment system is to take everything you have correct? You wont be a billionaire and you will have no assets. Its either that or a Shadow Ban. FDEV havent decided yet which one. Really they should give you a choice. You know, So you can play it your way.

Do you have any quotes on that?

Shadow ban because of a valid in game action?

In 2.4 there is PF bounty on top of regular one, the karma system is yet unclear. But i highly doubt it will be anything like you describe.

As a guy who is a criminal at times, I have to say that sounds AWESOME. Being hunted by PVP bounty hunters; having to deal with being blocked out of stations (or better yet attacked as a hostile!); increased risks of real loss...it sounds like a lot of fun (although I have 3.7 billion in the bank it would be darn exciting to risk losing hundreds of millions). Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm really looking forward to it.

I wish that would be the case, I highly doubt it will be "taking away all your assets or shadowban".

 

[Marra Morgan]

As a guy who is a criminal at times, I have to say that sounds AWESOME. Being hunted by PVP bounty hunters; having to deal with being blocked out of stations (or better yet attacked as a hostile!); increased risks of real loss...it sounds like a lot of fun (although I have 3.7 billion in the bank it would be darn exciting to risk losing hundreds of millions). Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm really looking forward to it.

EDIT* missed the "take everything" line. Ok, that one might hurt LOL - I wouldn't like that...

Same here!

As long as the balancing is right - I want a dangerous and exciting space-criminal career, not one that has no consequences, nor impossible ones either.

 

[CylonSurfer]

There's no need for anything to be repeated to qualify as griefing. For example a player using exploits to kill players in a busy station is a cheat (exploits) and a griefer (killing players by cheating then trying to harvest salt in the forum), he may never meet the same player twice but he's still obviously a griefer.



None of which relates to anything I've said.



Post one then so I can poke big holes in it.

You are resorting to name calling because you can't put a coherent argument together, you just keep repeating your own subjective opinions.

Not to put you down, but why do you think every line of text is related to you personally? Sure I quoted you and addressed that quote in my first paragraph, I sure didn't aim the rest of my post at you alone... My use of words such as 'someone' (this is called being nondescript) and not the handle 'Stigbob' would have (or I would hope) at least give you an indication that I was not directly speaking about you personally. I overlooked this a couple of times in your previous posts but it is leading to some level of confusion now....

When your friend approaches you and strikes up a conversation along the lines of "hey stigbob, you know you mentioned those robberies well I watched someone get robbed earlier" they were not in most likelyness referring to you being robbed.

You want to pick holes in definitions of pop culture phrases - be my guest, your only arguing with a majority who use the phrase in its now defined usage, hence it becoming pop culture... So you want to look foolish, then go ahead and too few crocs perfect the kitchen, yeah I personally like to use whatever words I like to describe stuff and convey myself, who cares about the real accepted definitions of those words or the overall phrase. Clearly we can make stuff up to suit ourselves and noone will know where they stand or what is actually being said (sounds familiar...somehow), eh my old cleaner... I mean mucker.

BTW, I agree about cheating and using such cheats to kill players being a form of griefing.

 

[Zambrick]

As a guy who is a criminal at times, I have to say that sounds AWESOME. Being hunted by PVP bounty hunters; having to deal with being blocked out of stations (or better yet attacked as a hostile!); increased risks of real loss...it sounds like a lot of fun (although I have 3.7 billion in the bank it would be darn exciting to risk losing hundreds of millions). Maybe I'm in the minority but I'm really looking forward to it.

EDIT* missed the "take everything" line. Ok, that one might hurt LOL - I wouldn't like that...

Thats the exact reason why I dont do it now. I want to save up my money so I can be a criminal. I may not be player killing all the time, but when the mechanics are in place, it will be a bunch of fun.

But then again that is not what those people want. No Risk and all reward, just like call of duty of battlefield.

 

[Zambrick]

Do you have any quotes on that?

Shadow ban because of a valid in game action?

In 2.4 there is PF bounty on top of regular one, the karma system is yet unclear. But i highly doubt it will be anything like you describe.



I wish that would be the case, I highly doubt it will be "taking away all your assets or shadowban".

Its not in 2.4 Go look up anything on the C&P Karma system. There is a bunch of stuff posted by Sandro in a thread I believe he started. Station banning, ship loss, and huge fines on top of cost of rebuy will be added. Eventual ship loss was also thrown out there. So you can eventually lose all of your stuff. Shadow banning is something they do now for some players who cant play well with others. SInce the whole reason the Karma system will exist is to track the crime and the intent of the player, it will be really easy to see when you will eventually be harassing a group of people. You wont be able to avoid it because you cant risk your ego.

 

[Stigbob]

Not to put you down, but why do you think every line of text is related to you personally? Sure I quoted you and addressed that quote in my first paragraph, I sure didn't aim the rest of my post at you alone... My use of words such as 'someone' (this is called being nondescript) and not the handle 'Stigbob' would have (or I would hope) at least give you an indication that I was not directly speaking about you personally. I overlooked this a couple of times in your previous posts but it is leading to some level of confusion now....

When your friend approaches you and strikes up a conversation along the lines of "hey stigbob, you know you mentioned those robberies well I watched someone get robbed earlier" they were not in most likelyness referring to you being robbed.

I never said I thought it was directed at me. That doesn't change the fact that I think it's lame intellectually redundant and pointless. The reason Hotel California exists is because these discussions always degenerate into variations on "psycho" and "care-bear" then they get locked or dumped into the hotel, which TBH is a good thing for the rest of the forum.

You want to pick holes in definitions of pop culture phrases - be my guest, your only arguing with a majority who use the phrase in its now defined usage, hence it becoming pop culture... So you want to look foolish, then go ahead and too few crocs perfect the kitchen, yeah I personally like to use whatever words I like to describe stuff and convey myself, who cares about the real accepted definitions of those words or the overall phrase. Clearly we can make stuff up to suit ourselves and noone will know where they stand or what is actually being said (sounds familiar...somehow), eh my old cleaner... I mean mucker.

You care obviously or you wouldn't be banging on about the definition, and claiming the support of lots of fictitious people. Talking of which I'm still waiting for you to post one, unless you can't find one that supports your argument of course.

BTW, I agree about cheating and using such cheats to kill players being a form of griefing.

Yep just block them if and when you find them and the game immediately improves.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Yep just block them if and when you find them and the game immediately improves.

I'd rather report a cheater to support than block them to be honest, same would go with anyone griefing me.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

I'd rather report a cheater to support than block them to be honest, same would go with anyone griefing me.

But whats a grief? Shooting you when you dont want to be shot or pirated. Or using exploits/cheats?

Because people feel griefed cause the get shot at period.

Everyday some explorer or trader makes a post about getting "griefed". Calls people names ect ect.

And is met with here join this private group. No griefers there!

When its perfectly acceptable to shoot other players in open at any given time.

Thats why this thread was made. Im not talking about harassment of killing a ship 20 times over and over. And even then that person if greifing theirself by now changing game modes in the first place.

So the main reason these threads are made is because people are tired of getting called names based around game play mechanics. And its a simple question. What is griefing in Elite Dangerous?

And the answer doesnt need to come from users. A clear statement needs to come from Fdev so they understand it. And no posting the TOS wont help here. Its been around since the beginning and people still dont care. Its an issue that needs to be talked about from the developers of the game.

 

[Stigbob]

I'd rather report a cheater to support than block them to be honest, same would go with anyone griefing me.

Nothing wrong with doing both.

 

[CylonSurfer]

But whats a grief? Shooting you when you dont want to be shot or pirated. Or using exploits/cheats?

Because people feel griefed cause the get shot at period.

Everyday some explorer or trader makes a post about getting "griefed". Calls people names ect ect.

And is met with here join this private group. No griefers there!

When its perfectly acceptable to shoot other players in open at any given time.

Thats why this thread was made. Im not talking about harassment of killing a ship 20 times over and over. And even then that person if greifing theirself by now changing game modes in the first place.

So the main reason these threads are made is because people are tired of getting called names based around game play mechanics. And its a simple question. What is griefing in Elite Dangerous?

And the answer doesnt need to come from users. A clear statement needs to come from Fdev so they understand it. And no posting the TOS wont help here. Its been around since the beginning and people still dont care. Its an issue that needs to be talked about from the developers of the game.

I think my other posts in this thread are pretty clear as to what I believe to be griefing and what the pop culture definition of griefing in video games actually is. I can't see how there is any misunderstanding as to what griefing in Elite is, other than intentional misunderstandings on the matter by those with agendas who do not want to be shot at without their express permission.

 

[Philip Coutts]

Is the issue that people get confused between griefing and murder? Murder is killing someone who is doing you no harm just because you feel like it and is (like it or not) part of the game. Griefing for me is very different, it's either using the game mechanics in a way not intended (dropping mines in space stations, ramming in space stations etc or it's picking on the same player over and over again. Just my thoughts.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Is the issue that people get confused between griefing and murder?

Sadly I believe so, with a sprinkle of intentional misunderstanding (spin by the consensual PVP only crowd).