The Empire's State

[CMDR Serra]

DISCLAIMER: I preface this by saying I'm no lore expert. So, obvs, personal opinion incoming. Pinch of salt may be required - and yes, I am clad head-to-foot in asbestos...

[Admin note]: I wasn't sure if this was CG/Lore related but ended up placing it in DD. Please move if inappropriately placed.

So the CG results so far are pretty convincing. 56% vs 14% in favour of the Feds so far. What this suggests - to me at least - is that some or more of the following are true:

1. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the scenario.
2. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the rewards.
3. Players make a choice based on other mission parameters - distance to station from CZ, facilities available at base...
4. There's a more general pro-Federal (and/or anti-Imperial) bias among CMDRs.

However, when you take other CGs into account where despite the differing scenarios, goals, rewards etc we've had the same result, I'm drawn to 4. This, however brings in option 5:

5. The Imperials are often being portrayed in-setting as being in the wrong - so in-game bias in unsurprising.

Recently, the Imperials are always invading systems, trying to hijack engineers and generally behaving in the way that an evil empire would when there are so many more sensible options (question Liz R. without taking her into custody, being more circumspect in investigating NMLA). There's no subtlety, diplomacy or flair - just a rather brutish application of blunt force which has proven time and again to end in abject failure. In other words - to me - they are not acting rationally. Now this may in the end all pay off plot-wise, but I'm not seeing it so far... After all, the definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results.

To my mind, the Empire is the one original faction in Elite. The one faction built not on "freedom" or "democracy" but one with a much subtler, more esoteric culture. One which outsiders may consider flawed, but which works for them nonetheless. Granted, it's not for everyone, but which culture is? There's the forgotten underclass of the Federation who are easily exploited by those with money or the Alliance systems that are tolerant of autocracy and dictatorship due to their policy of self-determinism? Both of these facets seem not to sway players as much as "slavery".

The fact that the Empire now seems to be a force for evil with no redeeming qualities does a disservice to the whole setting. It turns them into the Empire of the SW universe where they are unequivocally evil and should be destroyed out of hand for the benefit of the entire galaxy.

Now FDev can continue to portray the Empire as the unequivocal villain of the piece - it's their setting after all - but I'm becoming less and less engaged with the faction as they become more and more two-dimensional.

TLDR - Of late, the Empire comes off as the bad guy. I believe Elite is the poorer for it.

I'd (genuinely) be interested to know what people think:

• Do you have another explanation of why the CGs always skew heavily to the Feds? If so please elaborate.
• Are you happy with the current portrayal of the Empire?
• Would you like to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power/a new power created in their place/something else?

 

[Pristine_Bump]

Somthing else ...burn it all down

 

[Nadreck]

Yes, after the long lore-drought, things seem a bit rushed at the moment, with the Empire throwing itself headlong into wars without allowing sufficient time for diplomacy. Before the most recent one, there could have been some lore involving attempts by the Empire to get the Feds to help out, talks which then broke down for some reason.

Of course it might become apparent that the Feds (or some faction thereof) really were behind NMLA terrorism all along, which could lead to a CG in which people are more willing to support the Empire.

Or maybe it's time for a new storyline soon which is more Empire-friendly. Perhaps one of the smaller permit-locked regions could be unlocked and revealed as the location of a sentient race that has secretly been "under Imperial protection" in a first-contact scenario as they carefully try to avoid a repeat of the alleged wipeout of the natives of Achenar. Missions become available to one or more Imperial stations in the region, but direct contact with the natives by random independent pilots is strictly forbidden.

 

[BDelacroix]

I dare say this, I believe there may be a set of players who either intentionally or unintentionally equate the game nations with real life nations.

 

[Zieman]

The Empire's State: building ...

 

[Astaran]

• Do you have another explanation of why the CGs always skew heavily to the Feds? If so please elaborate.

These days many players/people only think in black and white extremes: You're either good or evil, either with us or against us. It seems that differentiating the nuances and details has become a lost "art". Secondly, most of us live in societies that for some reason always attribute malice, oppression and the morally wrong to state power, law enforcement and governments, while at the same time attribute a just cause and a general blank check to those who attack/resist state power/governments. This bias probably motivates players to support the "underdog" NMLA against the Empire, because "NMLA are the underdog, so they must surely be in the right".

Last but not least, maybe many players also confuse the Federation in Elite with the Federation in Star Trek and attribute all those positive connotations of Star Trek's utopian Federation to the one in Elite, completely ignoring Elite Lore.

• Are you happy with the current portrayal of the Empire?

No, I would like to see a more differentiating view of the Empire (and Federation and Alliance as well) to really hammer the point home that there are no generic good guys in Elite. However, the actions should always suit and reflect the character of the political actors. If FDev wants to connect the heavy-handed Imperial actions as of late to the character of Lavigny-Duval and/or Patreus, it should be made clear that this is the main reason for it. Fluff Articles could depict Patreus as a hot headed hard-charger while other articles show dissenting opinions from Aisling Duval or Lavigny-Duval to show that "the Empire" is not a monolithic block. The same goes for the NMLA: A number of fluff articles from "independent, unbiased sources" could show the dark sides of those terrorists and that they are not the "generic good guys" either.

• Would you like to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power/a new power created in their place/something else?

No, a removal of the Empire or removing their "negative traits" to appease the SJW crowd would actually make me lose interest in "superpower gameplay" entirely. I like the Empire because it is not a "generic good guy" and there are some more complex and rough edges like Imperial Slavery to them. It makes them interesting and unique and it sets them apart from Federation and Alliance.

 

[Viscera]

6: empire sux. It needs to git gud.

 

[smiths121]

I would agree from a casaul scanning of the CGs, the Empire is acting as an "evil empire". Here is a fact, both the Fed and the Empire ARE evil empires! The Alliance was rather born out of this fact!

There is more to it than that, particularly in the current scenario. The empire is just trying to eliminate this terrorist threat. This is a good intent, there is some over-reach, and the tactics are blunt, but it turns out the engineer they zero'd in on, did buld the bombs, the refugees did contain terrorists, who struck again after the exodus.

For me the Empire's goals are good, execution, that of a super-power, not understanding sovereignty of other entities, but forgive em for confusing real life, seen that a lot in the real world.

Still backing the Feds though. Its a slavery thing. have done since FE2.

Simon

 

[Ian Doncaster]

5. The Imperials are often being portrayed in-setting as being in the wrong - so in-game bias in unsurprising.

That's true ... but so are the other superpowers.

The Federation is currently dealing with the fact that a senior military official tried to kill the President in an attack which did kill thousands of others, possibly at the direction of the (then) leader of the opposition and (now) President. In the previous storylines they persecuted religious groups, academics, and anyone else vaguely nearby solely through a moral panic about the Thargoids.

The Alliance, having taken over the Witch Head Nebula, originally intended as a joint AEGIS operation, is now poking into Coalsack as well ... and with California Nebula under their control too appears to be trying to monopolise Thargoid sites with potentially fatal consequences for everyone. They briefly also had a President who asked their military friend to assassinate a political rival.

Sirius Corp ... well, what haven't Sirius Corp done?

None of them are portrayed particularly positively. The Empire have the worst PR teams of the four (and Sirius the best) but that's not unusual for an authoritarian government. The problem that Empire has is that most of the current storyline is about them, so they have more opportunities to come off badly.

2. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the rewards.
3. Players make a choice based on other mission parameters - distance to station from CZ, facilities available at base...
4. There's a more general pro-Federal (and/or anti-Imperial) bias among CMDRs.

I think the combination of higher CG rewards for joining the winning side, and Imperial ships being easier to kill in CZs, does tend to bias things a bit in terms of people who don't have that strong an opinion. Ackwada I think showed that Frontier were going to try to rebalance this a bit, of course.

The Federal ships being biased towards combat and the Imperial ones towards trade certainly in the early days had an effect too - Feds winning competitive combat, Imps winning competitive trade. Now that's probably less important, of course.

 

[zimms]

[...]
5. The Imperials are often being portrayed in-setting as being in the wrong - so in-game bias in unsurprising.
[...]

The Federation just as much imho. The Alliance is the exception.

I think the underlying problem you're addressing isn't specific to the Empire. Elite's story and important characters are all caricatures. Just look at Hudson for example. They are basically whatever came out of the blender after putting various stereotypes and clichés in it.

There seems to be a new attention to lore now, so let's see if things improve. But so far all I can say is, if you're looking for the Expanse, don't come to Elite.

 

[Darth Montu]

I find it hard to consider the empire is the evil ones in this.

They empire is the victim. Its citizens where attacked and killed by terrorist supported by the feds. It was proven that the NMLA is being supported by the federation and considering they carried out assassinations and attempted assassinations, WITH federation support, which were unprovoked, is kinda easy to see who the badguys are...

I think people supported the fed because the CG offered to shorten the rank grind and the corvette is seen by most as the better ship.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The Federation just as much imho. The Alliance is the exception.

I think the underlying problem you're addressing isn't specific to the Empire. Elite's story and important characters are all caricatures. Just look at Hudson for example. They are basically whatever came out of the blender after putting various stereotypes and clichés in it.

There seems to be a new attention to lore now, so let's see if things improve. But so far all I can say is, if you're looking for the Expanse, don't come to Elite.

To be fair, the Expanse as it goes on does not exactly get decent characters either. Past book 3 it becomes events and the characters get lost.

The problem is that you do have excellent personas- Powerplay has them and they are all balanced on a knife edge with good and bad sides. Its just FD never made each of these people more prominent and left the choice almost binary between Feds and Imps (and that other one who likes kale).

 

[zimms]

I find it hard to consider the empire is the evil ones in this.

They empire is the victim. Its citizens where attacked and killed by terrorist supported by the feds. It was proven that the NMLA is being supported by the federation and considering they carried out assassinations and attempted assassinations, WITH federation support, which were unprovoked, is kinda easy to see who the badguys are...

I think people supported the fed because the CG offered to shorten the rank grind and the corvette is seen by most as the better ship.

Source? There's absolutely no evidence that would suggest the Federation has been supporting the NMLA.

Would you also say the Empire supports the NMLA? After all, there were way more Imp systems involved with the NMLA.

edit: About the Corvette, it's definitely better at combat. But in certain other areas, the Cutter easily outclasses it.

 

[Michael Whatever]

For what it's worth I have fought for the Imps when I feel their cause is justified, and against them when I feel they are overstepping the mark.

Perhaps in space games we are "culturally pre-programmed" to expect a friendly Federation and resist an Empire?
Additional familiarity may arise as the federation is at least based in Sol, the one system we must all feel some affection for and want to visit. If I had to pick a side on game day one, it would have been the power controlling Sol.

I don't want to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power, it's schisms and basking are endlessly entertaining. Now, a civil war within the empire...

 

[Lightspeed]

I usually take advantage of playing for both sides with these combat CGs.

On at least three occasions, including this, (and I cannot remember the other locations, or when, so please don't ask me to give details), when I have sided with Empire, I've found that the approach to the station to rearm/ hand in bonds was either (a) much much further away than the Fed location, or (b) the station was more tricky to enter. In this case the Imperial mega ship is more prone to pad blocking and is a lot harder to reach through the asteroid ring - you have to set your approach from the correct side of the rings and then wait around for a pad to clear.

The approach to Wolf Port is very simple, and has no problems getting in. So it's just easier to accrue credits/rep/influence with the Feds in this case .... as seems to happen .... every .... single.... time !

 

[Speedcuffs]

Keep seeing comments like 'people support the Feds because FDev portray the Empire in a bad light'.
Evidence that this is why people support the Feds?

 

[Peter_Quill]

For a lot of people the reason to hate the Empire is the Imperial Slavery, even though, officially, its described as working off your debt. I wonder if the Empire was more liked if they didnt use the word Slavery and used "Debt Relief Worker" or something along those lines instead

 

[Bottom Hat]

They have a better looking character.

 

[Tarkus Venius]

DISCLAIMER: I preface this by saying I'm no lore expert. So, obvs, personal opinion incoming. Pinch of salt may be required - and yes, I am clad head-to-foot in asbestos...

[Admin note]: I wasn't sure if this was CG/Lore related but ended up placing it in DD. Please move if inappropriately placed.

So the CG results so far are pretty convincing. 56% vs 14% in favour of the Feds so far. What this suggests - to me at least - is that some or more of the following are true:

1. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the scenario.
2. Players read the descriptions and make a choice for the Feds based on the rewards.
3. Players make a choice based on other mission parameters - distance to station from CZ, facilities available at base...
4. There's a more general pro-Federal (and/or anti-Imperial) bias among CMDRs.

However, when you take other CGs into account where despite the differing scenarios, goals, rewards etc we've had the same result, I'm drawn to 4. This, however brings in option 5:

5. The Imperials are often being portrayed in-setting as being in the wrong - so in-game bias in unsurprising.

Recently, the Imperials are always invading systems, trying to hijack engineers and generally behaving in the way that an evil empire would when there are so many more sensible options (question Liz R. without taking her into custody, being more circumspect in investigating NMLA). There's no subtlety, diplomacy or flair - just a rather brutish application of blunt force which has proven time and again to end in abject failure. In other words - to me - they are not acting rationally. Now this may in the end all pay off plot-wise, but I'm not seeing it so far... After all, the definition of insanity is repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting different results.

To my mind, the Empire is the one original faction in Elite. The one faction built not on "freedom" or "democracy" but one with a much subtler, more esoteric culture. One which outsiders may consider flawed, but which works for them nonetheless. Granted, it's not for everyone, but which culture is? There's the forgotten underclass of the Federation who are easily exploited by those with money or the Alliance systems that are tolerant of autocracy and dictatorship due to their policy of self-determinism? Both of these facets seem not to sway players as much as "slavery".

The fact that the Empire now seems to be a force for evil with no redeeming qualities does a disservice to the whole setting. It turns them into the Empire of the SW universe where they are unequivocally evil and should be destroyed out of hand for the benefit of the entire galaxy.

Now FDev can continue to portray the Empire as the unequivocal villain of the piece - it's their setting after all - but I'm becoming less and less engaged with the faction as they become more and more two-dimensional.

TLDR - Of late, the Empire comes off as the bad guy. I believe Elite is the poorer for it.

I'd (genuinely) be interested to know what people think:

• Do you have another explanation of why the CGs always skew heavily to the Feds? If so please elaborate.
• Are you happy with the current portrayal of the Empire?
• Would you like to see the Empire defeated and subsumed with another power/a new power created in their place/something else?

The Empire takes a Federation system with 3 billion people a few days ago with military force, and it's no big deal. Then the Empire makes an armed incursion looking for bombs in a nowhere "neutral" Fed system with 3 million population and everyone loses their minds. It's "front page news", and quite an interesting choice at that.

The Empire has been blundering about, using the Imperial Fleet like a cudgel, as if we just woke up this morning and learned that terrorism exists. It's not like we haven't dealt with this sort of thing before with Emperor's Dawn, Nova Imperium, and any other number of insurgencies in our past. Except before it was mostly dealt with by intelligence forces rooting them out carefully and clandestine. IISS is supposed to be ruthless, efficient, and terrifying in it's effectiveness.

I politely implore the FDEV writers to kindly stop this silly nonsense at once. This is not the Empire we have known, there is no cleverness, subtlety, or cunning. There is no patience or focus. This is not our Empire, please read our history and portray it the way it deserves. Thus far it has been done a disservice.

PS: If anything the Feds have been historically reckless and blunt with their military adventures, like the failed invasion of Achenar, or when a Fed cap ship ended up shooting at their own station.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

Both the Federation and Empire are pretty overt in their lust to be the big dog in the pack.

In my eyes, ole Mahon and the Alliance seem pretty suspect. Never making waves, being obnoxiously diplomatic, etc. Manipulators, perhaps? Is the Alliance greasing the wheels of conflict between their rivals so they can emerge as a true superpower?

Beware the quiet ones.