The EULA and Data Farming

[Unpleasant]

For the record, for the trade information to be available, someone has to go to a station and record the data. Slopey's app doesn't do anything that a group of people couldn't already do with a Google spread sheet. My question to FD is, does doing something as simple as sharing, even recording, this data break the EULA? Because, at current, I'm left to wonder the contradiction between the deliberate design of the game and the wording of the EULA.

I can't imagine sharing station prices with other people can be against the eula.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Crowdsourced data is cheating. There's no getting around that. Those that use it can rationalise it any way they want, they are cheats. However, the point is that they are cheats, and thus care little for the spirit of the game itself.

Frontier can either:

• Wage a War on Insider Traders. They would probably fare as well as the SEC and other IRL regulators, i.e. pitifully. The resources wasted on this could also be astronomical, although seeing the odd careless fool getting permabanned would still be funny...
• Provide better, more accurate and timely tools in-game. This will mean the whole "Age Of Sail meets Rome...in Space" spirit of the game will be altered (for the worse IMO), but as mentioned earlier, these are cheats, and thus care little for that.

The blurb about enhanced Galnet services being "available for a subscription" is probably an indicator that the latter path is the one they will choose to follow.

The issue though is that whether or not is actually is "cheating" is open to debate. To date, FD has not taken an official stance on collaborative trading efforts. Again I ask, why would they bother to REQUIRE online play if teaming up was never intended?

 

[Unpleasant]

Crowdsourced data is cheating. There's no getting around that. Those that use it can rationalise it any way they want, they are cheats. However, the point is that they are cheats, and thus care little for the spirit of the game itself.

Frontier can either:

• Wage a War on Insider Traders. They would probably fare as well as the SEC and other IRL regulators, i.e. pitifully. The resources wasted on this could also be astronomical, although seeing the odd careless fool getting permabanned would still be funny...
• Provide better, more accurate and timely tools in-game. This will mean the whole "Age Of Sail meets Rome...in Space" spirit of the game will be altered (for the worse IMO), but as mentioned earlier, these are cheats, and thus care little for that.

The blurb about enhanced Galnet services being "available for a subscription" is probably an indicator that the latter path is the one they will choose to follow.

Personally I'd like to see something in the game like you have in the X series of games.

A best buy/sell module. Different ratings could give prices for different distances in light years.

Install one, buy some stock and it'll tell you the best place to sell it in X light years.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

I can't imagine sharing station prices with other people can be against the eula.

I certainly hope not. I can empathize with your experience, but if a test allows me to use a calculator I'm going to use it. If I chose not to, it would be audacious of me to call those who did use one cheaters.

As far as the "spirit" of the game goes, the only thing I can say that what is clear to me is that it was, from the very beginning, meant to be played others.

 

[Slopey]

Unfortunately I've been sat in space stations waiting for 8 rares to spawn for half an hour to avoid buying expensive sock and not have anywhere to sell it for a profit. So I can't give you examples to look at. It's just a fear I have with tools like these.

But... If you're saying it's never happened, I'm prepared to take you at your word and adjust my feelings on the subject.

Well there you go - you're waiting for rares because nothing else makes money, which is because rares generate profit based on distance as opposed to normal commods where it's difficult to make a profit unless you know where you're going.

But that's exactly my point - the market in ED is not fit for purpose. All FD need to do is introduce more variation, and in the market dropdown where it says "imports/exports" (even if they charge 100cr for it) they show the prices at that station - hell, even the prices 24 hours ago. That's all they need to do to invalidate all 3rd party tools. It is as simple as that.

TBH, I didn't expect the BPC to survive past Gamma, and I'm constantly amazed that FD don't just add a "Market Computer" or the facility as per the above to the game - it'd enhance it by a significant amount, and if it wouldn't, why do I have 1200+ simultaneous BPC users at peak times?

All this stuff should be done in the game itself. And the sooner the better

Meanwhile - EULAs are EULAs - they're drafted as widely as possible to catch any given scenario. Until there's a tangible breach there's no point trying to infer the letter of the law unless what people are doing is obviously prohibited.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Personally I'd like to see something in the game like you have in the X series of games.

A best buy/sell module. Different ratings could give prices for different distances in light years.

Install one, buy some stock and it'll tell you the best place to sell it in X light years.

The commodities market is only one aspect of third party tools. There are other apps that simply map routes (not even trade routes, just direction from one place to another) far more efficiently than the in game pathing tool.

 

[Armour]

The issue though is that whether or not is actually is "cheating" is open to debate.

Anything is "open to debate". We could debate the size of my genitalia, for example. We could all hold a mass debate about it. Doesn't mean that it's eye-wateringly huge stature is any less (or more) true, regardless of arguments.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Anything is "open to debate". We could debate the size of my genitalia, for example. We could all hold a mass debate about it. Doesn't mean that it's eye-wateringly huge stature is any less (or more) true, regardless of arguments.

Saying it is open was me implying I'd like FD to bring down the hammer and tell us if it is actually cheating or not. It's not your or my place to say that the stance we hold is, for lack of a better word, law. I'd like to hear/read it from the horse's mouth.

I don't think you can honestly say that collaborative efforts are cheating when it's a game designed to be played together. That being said, the EULA implies that it is, or at the very least implies that doing it in certain ways is cheating, but casts a net so wide that it's difficult to honestly understand.

 

[Unpleasant]

I certainly hope not. I can empathize with your experience, but if a test allows me to use a calculator I'm going to use it. If I chose not to, it would be audacious of me to call those who did use one cheaters.

As far as the "spirit" of the game goes, the only thing I can say that what is clear to me is that it was, from the very beginning, meant to be played others.

If you're allowed to use a calculator in a test, you'll be provided with one if you don't have your own.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

If you're allowed to use a calculator in a test, you'll be provided with one if you don't have your own.

I'm not sure about how it's done elsewhere, but I remember vividly having to buy my own TI-83.

 

[Tru]

Because even if I play in solo mode, I still share the market with everyone else. I work for days exploring to find a profitable trade route. but 1 of slopey's gang enters the system, logs all the station prices and boom. A shed load of trades come, grind the trade route so it's not profitable anymore.

I then have to go off and spend days finding another profitable trade route. Only to have that ground away in a similar fashion.

And you know what boils my pee even more... The same guys come in the forums shouting about how it's easy to find profitable trade routes, etc etc etc.

Edit: maybe I understand the trade routes and pricing wrong, if so I'll apologies and happily be educated.

The "economy" of this game is not a true economy at all. The vast majority of stations are not profitable trade cogs; This is not because humans are over-trading; And many times it is not because NPC's are over-trading either (although the NPC over-trading is vastly more common than human over-trading in places where trade would be viable); At the end of the day, prices are driven by supply and demand. However, without actually understanding what the terms "supply" and "demand" actually mean... you end up with something that is not an economy at all. And as such, it is broken from the very beginning, before NPC's or humans get involved. It is for this very reason that Slopey's tool is NOT a bad thing. In a working economy, his tool would not be needed at all. The very existence of his tool indicates a broken economic model.

In reality, demand is defined as a consumer's willingness to pay for a good. This willingness is influenced by their own personal preferences, but more importantly it is also influenced by the price of the good. As prices go up, the consumer desires less, and will seek out substitutes or other options altogether. As prices go down, the consumer desires more. Similarly, supply is defined as a producer's willingness to produce a good. In this instance, the producer similarly faces a decision about how much to produce (or not produce at all) based upon the price of the good, as well as the COST to produce it. They would produce more if the price is high, and less if it is low. But ultimately, cost must always be factored into the decision. If the cost is higher than the price... they would stop producing and find something better to produce.

Because this game does not incorporate any of these types of decisions into determining "supply" and "demand," they are not supply and demand at all. They are simply 2 columns with numbers under them that are pre-determined by FD. And while those numbers may fluctuate depending on the amount of trade taking place, the real issue is that virtual producers and consumers do not make informed decisions. They simply add and subtract from the market on a daily basis regardless of the price. This is fundamentally flawed.

Ultimately, production and consumption decisions (which are absent from this game) work in reality due to the AVAILABILITY OF INFORMATION... informed decisions. This game is stuck wrestling with a notion that people should not know the prices at different stations without going there first. But in reality, interstellar trade would not exist without readily available information to connect producers and consumers. Truly fixing the broken economy (which is probably an impossible task given the complexity) would not occur by prohibiting 3rd party tools which enhance information gathering ability. Fixing the economy happens by incorporating the ability to gather information efficiently into the game itself.

Regardless of the EULA or any of the legal aspects... the notion that Slopey's tool (or any others) are breaking an otherwise working economy is entirely incorrect. The reality is that their tools are the best option we currently have in dealing with an economy which is completely broken from the beginning. They are the solution, not the problem.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

If you're allowed to use a calculator in a test, you'll be provided with one if you don't have your own.

That being said, Slopey doesn't charge for his app. You're absolutely free to use it. In that sense, you are being provided your calculator. You're just choosing to not use it.

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The "economy" of this game is not a true economy at all. The vast majority of stations are not profitable trade cogs; This is not because humans are over-trading; And many times it is not because NPC's are over-trading either (although the NPC over-trading is vastly more common than human over-trading in places where trade would be viable); At the end of the day, prices are driven by supply and demand. However, without actually understanding what the terms "supply" and "demand" actually mean... you end up with something that is not an economy at all. And as such, it is broken from the very beginning, before NPC's or humans get involved. It is for this very reason that Slopey's tool is NOT a bad thing. In a working economy, his tool would not be needed at all. The very existence of his tool indicates a broken economic model.

In reality, demand is defined as a consumer's willingness to pay for a good. This willingness is influenced by their own personal preferences, but more importantly it is also influenced by the price of the good. As prices go up, the consumer desires less, and will seek out substitutes or other options altogether. As prices go down, the consumer desires more. Similarly, supply is defined as a producer's willingness to produce a good. In this instance, the producer similarly faces a decision about how much to produce (or not produce at all) based upon the price of the good, as well as the COST to produce it. They would produce more if the price is high, and less if it is low. But ultimately, cost must always be factored into the decision. If the cost is higher than the price... they would stop producing and find something better to produce.

Because this game does not incorporate any of these types of decisions into determining "supply" and "demand," they are not supply and demand at all. They are simply 2 columns with numbers under them that are pre-determined by FD. And while those numbers may fluctuate depending on the amount of trade taking place, the real issue is that virtual producers and consumers do not make informed decisions. They simply add and subtract from the market on a daily basis regardless of the price. This is fundamentally flawed.

Ultimately, production and consumption decisions (which are absent from this game) work in reality due to the AVAILABILITY OF INFORMATION... informed decisions. This game is stuck wrestling with a notion that people should not know the prices at different stations without going there first. But in reality, interstellar trade would not exist without readily available information to connect producers and consumers. Truly fixing the broken economy (which is probably an impossible task given the complexity) would not occur by prohibiting 3rd party tools which enhance information gathering ability. Fixing the economy happens by incorporating the ability to gather information efficiently into the game itself.

Regardless of the EULA or any of the legal aspects... the notion that Slopey's tool (or any others) are breaking an otherwise working economy is entirely incorrect. The reality is that their tools are the best option we currently have in dealing with an economy which is completely broken from the beginning. They are the solution, not the problem.

I think that's a fair assessment, and not a perspective I considered.

 

[Unpleasant]

The "economy" of this game is not a true economy at all. The vast majority of stations are not profitable trade cogs; This is not because humans are over-trading; And many times it is not because NPC's are over-trading either (although the NPC over-trading is vastly more common than human over-trading in places where trade would be viable); At the end of the day, prices are driven by supply and demand. However, without actually understanding what the terms "supply" and "demand" actually mean... you end up with something that is not an economy at all. And as such, it is broken from the very beginning, before NPC's or humans get involved. It is for this very reason that Slopey's tool is NOT a bad thing. In a working economy, his tool would not be needed at all. The very existence of his tool indicates a broken economic model.

In reality, demand is defined as a consumer's willingness to pay for a good. This willingness is influenced by their own personal preferences, but more importantly it is also influenced by the price of the good. As prices go up, the consumer desires less, and will seek out substitutes or other options altogether. As prices go down, the consumer desires more. Similarly, supply is defined as a producer's willingness to produce a good. In this instance, the producer similarly faces a decision about how much to produce (or not produce at all) based upon the price of the good, as well as the COST to produce it. They would produce more if the price is high, and less if it is low. But ultimately, cost must always be factored into the decision. If the cost is higher than the price... they would stop producing and find something better to produce.

Because this game does not incorporate any of these types of decisions into determining "supply" and "demand," they are not supply and demand at all. They are simply 2 columns with numbers under them that are pre-determined by FD. And while those numbers may fluctuate depending on the amount of trade taking place, the real issue is that virtual producers and consumers do not make informed decisions. They simply add and subtract from the market on a daily basis regardless of the price. This is fundamentally flawed.

Ultimately, production and consumption decisions (which are absent from this game) work in reality due to the AVAILABILITY OF INFORMATION... informed decisions. This game is stuck wrestling with a notion that people should not know the prices at different stations without going there first. But in reality, interstellar trade would not exist without readily available information to connect producers and consumers. Truly fixing the broken economy (which is probably an impossible task given the complexity) would not occur by prohibiting 3rd party tools which enhance information gathering ability. Fixing the economy happens by incorporating the ability to gather information efficiently into the game itself.

Regardless of the EULA or any of the legal aspects... the notion that Slopey's tool (or any others) are breaking an otherwise working economy is entirely incorrect. The reality is that their tools are the best option we currently have in dealing with an economy which is completely broken from the beginning. They are the solution, not the problem.

I completely agree that trading is bust. I kind of understand now why these tools are available. Not to make things easier, but to actually make things work better.

 

[Apostle]

I do not understand why FD does not roll the function into the game as a trade computer and then it is in game and would take a slot. You could have the rank of computer control the range or number of systems it can compute.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

I do not understand why FD does not roll the function into the game as a trade computer and then it is in game and would take a slot. You could have the rank of computer control the range or number of systems it can compute.

I don't think you will find many people that disagree with your desire for something in game. As to why, it's simply a matter of time, investment, and priority.

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In lieu of such, it would be nice to know how the community can "legally" adapt to the lack of those in game tools.

 

[ShadowGar]

https://store.elitedangerous.com/ed-eula/

Screenshots are not prohibited. Using any automated means to copy data from the game is prohibited. In section 3.e it states that even manually copying data is prohibited.

[edit] The OCR is a grey area, as it doesn't take the information directly from the game process, but it does conceptually take the information from the game / game environment. Again, this is just one of those ways the freelance devs dance around the EULA due to the lack of specifics.

All I'm asking for are clearly stated specifics, and not a few ambiguous lines in the EULA.

Negative.

The OCR software never touches the client EVER. It looks at a picture in a players folder. If they go as far as preventing interaction with screenshots then anyone that edits a photo is in violation which is ridiculous. Plus ... they can't stop it. They can't monitor our desktops and know if we took a screenshot. So if they wanted to fight that battle, they can't win it if they never know who the enemy is.

Also, FD can't tell players what to do with screenshots on their PC and ever hope to enforce it.

Scraping on the other hand IS still going on. The code is opensource and is used. Now whether FD can detect it is another issue. But that's their business, not ours.

We have had sooooo many posts on this subject and FD has never been specific. Would be nice though if they just allowed it becuase now they have two groups, one scraping and having all the data and another group not having all the data. Make it open to all and no one has an advantage.

ORRRRR.... Invest in more man hours to fight the war on cheating. But we all know how that works..... It doesn't

 

[David frm Operations]

Don't get me wrong you must be a clever chap to put a program together like this. You're also quite right, it's just the same as big groups of people sharing information with each other.

Still gives those using these types of things an advantage over everyone else playing the game as it was meant to be played.

If FD wanted me to be able to see all the trade prices of everyone that's ever been to any station since the game came online... Wouldn't they have added that feature to the game?

Then you get normal players, like me, that don't use these 3rd party trading tools, that simply cant find decent trade route anywhere, ever. Why? Because those that use these types of tools trade them into extinction.

Your program might help you, and your friends that use them, but, at the same time, they make the game much more difficult for everyone else that doesn't use them.

Stop making excuses.

And yes I am saying you are making excuses for your lack of willingness to work at something. I have manually set up my trade routes in the game using my mark I brain attached to my standard issue eyeball and my decrepit old memory for a long time. In fact, I had multiple leg trade routes from V from station A system A to station B system B, W from station B to station C in system B, X from station C system B to station D system C, then Y from station D system C to station E system D, then Z from station E system D all the way back to station A system A. Thats 5 commodities, 5 stations, 4 systems and I made from 700-900 cr per ton each leg. Now, you look at the trade tools and a good trade route may clear as much as 1300 a leg, but really, they all entail a very long super cruise from the nav beacon to like 18K LS or some such garbage. I would imagine that since I am going no more than 300 LS to a station, I am making more trades faster and so making more money per hour when I really hump it hard.

If you are not making good trades, it is be cause YOU are unwilling to do the work and leave your comfort zone of where you started. I moved out from my beginning system, I looked around the trade maps, I looked at where missions sent cargo, I ran trade routes with my cobra to check them out before hauling a million credits of palladium and so on. Seriously, put in the work to get the rewards and stop complaining that others may have it easier. Humans work better in groups anyway so join a group, use the tools or use your brain.

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If you're allowed to use a calculator in a test, you'll be provided with one if you don't have your own.

If you need a calculator for a test then likely the test was not well designed.

 

[Snuble]

Don't get me wrong you must be a clever chap to put a program together like this. You're also quite right, it's just the same as big groups of people sharing information with each other.

Still gives those using these types of things an advantage over everyone else playing the game as it was meant to be played.

If FD wanted me to be able to see all the trade prices of everyone that's ever been to any station since the game came online... Wouldn't they have added that feature to the game?

Then you get normal players, like me, that don't use these 3rd party trading tools, that simply cant find decent trade route anywhere, ever. Why? Because those that use these types of tools trade them into extinction.

Your program might help you, and your friends that use them, but, at the same time, they make the game much more difficult for everyone else that doesn't use them.

Meant to be played? Why not rephrase that to "how I think its meant to be played", or "Everyone have to follow my rules or I will be upset". Play the game, report exploits, sharing data is not one of them.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

Negative.

The OCR software never touches the client EVER. It looks at a picture in a players folder. If they go as far as preventing interaction with screenshots then anyone that edits a photo is in violation which is ridiculous. Plus ... they can't stop it. They can't monitor our desktops and know if we took a screenshot. So if they wanted to fight that battle, they can't win it if they never know who the enemy is.

Also, FD can't tell players what to do with screenshots on their PC and ever hope to enforce it.

Scraping on the other hand IS still going on. The code is opensource and is used. Now whether FD can detect it is another issue. But that's their business, not ours.

We have had sooooo many posts on this subject and FD has never been specific. Would be nice though if they just allowed it becuase now they have two groups, one scraping and having all the data and another group not having all the data. Make it open to all and no one has an advantage.

ORRRRR.... Invest in more man hours to fight the war on cheating. But we all know how that works..... It doesn't

I noted that. But the EULA states in section 3.e that even manually copying content from the game is prohibited. Which implies that even just taking notes it against the EULA.

So it doesn't matter what method you use, e.g. scraping or OCR, if you copy content from the game you're breaking the EULA.

This seems absolutely absurd, not to mention unenforceable. The enforcement isn't even my concern, though. It's really a honor system and there's little FD can do about it in all reality.

Some, most even, of us are and want to remain honorable. We want an expanded experience that FD is either incapable of or unable to cater to. In lieu of an in-game solution, why not just tell us where the lines are and why they were drawn?

 

[Marikc0]

This post may be better suited in the support section, but I thought it might be interesting to get some official and unofficial perspective on this subject.

I've been following the trends in harvesting commodity/game data. At current it seems that using OCR is the preferred method. Although this is still a clear violation of the EULA (specifically section 3.d), Frontier has been letting these applications slide.

It seems like most, if not all, the community developers DO want to follow the "rules", or at the very least they want to be in good standing with Frontier. But in the absence of a proper API I think it's fair to say that with every measure Frontier might make to RIGHTFULLY protect it's data and users, the community devs will find grey areas and loop holes in the EULA to skirt around those measures.

I realize the official stance is somewhere along the lines of "an API sounds like a good idea, we'll probably add that." However, until an API is fully realized, would it not be a healthy compromise to allow harvesting/scraping data with permission so long as an application meets a set of guidelines - to the point of even requiring the applications to be open source?

Personally, I don't really care, because OCR is slower than physically typing in those commodities by hand.