The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[DemiserofD]

Sigh, I'll try anyway.

I believe you're operating under a fundamental disconnect. Namely, you seem to believe that in order for an enemy to exist, they must exist within your sight, where you can strike at them directly. But as the many players who play in Solo demonstrate, to many players, this is not the case. Being able to COMPETE is not contingent on being able to hit them physically, and to those players, a game of competitive hauling is a perfect demonstration of competition between enemies.

I really don't think you understand this viewpoint, but it's one you really should try to integrate, because it's a significant one with many players who share it, myself included. No, players aren't a monolith, and every player wants slightly different things, but ultimately, you CAN differentiate players into broad categories, just like you can sort humans into personality types, and given that Elite is commonly known as space trucking simulator, I think you MUST recognize that these players make up a substantial part of the playerbase.

In other words, to these players, they already HAVE an enemy. The addition of, say, NPC attackers, would not be a positive for these players, as it would only be a distraction from their REAL enemy, the haulers on the enemy team.

Can you at least recognize that this is a valid viewpoint, shared by many players?

 

[Rubbernuke]

Come on, I though we were going to try to avoid the huge quote chains.

Its difficult to respond fully to complex questions without resorting to it.

You can boil down anything that we say as this- you'll say x, I'll say y, you'll be 'no, prove it' ad infinitum. We won't agree and no matter whats been said we won't convince the other.

 

[DemiserofD]

Its difficult to respond fully to complex questions without resorting to it.

You can boil down anything that we say as this- you'll say x, I'll say y, you'll be 'no, prove it' ad infinitum. We won't agree and no matter whats been said we won't convince the other.

That's why it's important to focus on one issue at a time. With huge quote-fests, you can sidetrack infinitely, but if you focus on one thing at a time, you can slowly make progress.

For now, take a look at what I just posted and we'll work from there.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Sigh, I'll try anyway.

I believe you're operating under a fundamental disconnect. Namely, you seem to believe that in order for an enemy to exist, they must exist within your sight, where you can strike at them directly. But as the many players who play in Solo demonstrate, to many players, this is not the case. Being able to COMPETE is not contingent on being able to hit them physically, and to those players, a game of competitive hauling is a perfect demonstration of competition between enemies.

I really don't think you understand this viewpoint, but it's one you really should try to integrate, because it's a significant one with many players who share it, myself included. No, players aren't a monolith, and every player wants slightly different things, but ultimately, you CAN differentiate players into broad categories, just like you can sort humans into personality types, and given that Elite is commonly known as space trucking simulator, I think you MUST recognize that these players make up a substantial part of the playerbase.

In other words, to these players, they already HAVE an enemy. The addition of, say, NPC attackers, would not be a positive for these players, as it would only be a distraction from their REAL enemy, the haulers on the enemy team.

Can you at least recognize that this is a valid viewpoint, shared by many players?

You get abstracted combat in the BGS via the tick and its aggregation. When you are doing something quite basic over and over (to the point where I can count the keystrokes and know the timings between them) it turns people off (like it has for many). I get some people like that, its why I don't support an Open BGS. But I do support having a variety of experiences, hence Open Powerplay.

I've explained to you that I dislike positive opposition style gaming, the BGS does it in spades and it lessens the impact of emergent solutions. Your idea of competition is to simply do something more than someone else, when I would like to be able to trip them up whenever I can when I see them. In a game about flying spaceships in a cuthroat world, why is it my only true enemy should be a progress bar? All that time pumping it up should be filled with something worth playing. Open brings complexity through interactions with other rival players who are not restricted like NPCs are. Those NPCs should be attacking your haulers just as they attack mine, otherwise that hauling is inevitable grind with little variety in what happens.

I get what you say, please read all my suggestions and you'll see that I've written proposals from that point of view. But, unless FD actually say "we will be spending time on this, what do you think?" we can only go on whats been already given- and from that the only thing new is Open to make players take the role of NPCs which just don't work, to actually make a game beyond simple linear grind races.

 

[DemiserofD]

You get abstracted combat in the BGS via the tick and its aggregation. When you are doing something quite basic over and over (to the point where I can count the keystrokes and know the timings between them) it turns people off (like it has for many). I get some people like that, its why I don't support an Open BGS. But I do support having a variety of experiences, hence Open Powerplay.

I've explained to you that I dislike positive opposition style gaming, the BGS does it in spades and it lessens the impact of emergent solutions. Your idea of competition is to simply do something more than someone else, when I would like to be able to trip them up whenever I can when I see them. In a game about flying spaceships in a cuthroat world, why is it my only true enemy should be a progress bar? All that time pumping it up should be filled with something worth playing. Open brings complexity through interactions with other rival players who are not restricted like NPCs are. Those NPCs should be attacking your haulers just as they attack mine, otherwise that hauling is inevitable grind with little variety in what happens.

I get what you say, please read all my suggestions and you'll see that I've written proposals from that point of view. But, unless FD actually say "we will be spending time on this, what do you think?" we can only go on whats been already given- and from that the only thing new is Open to make players take the role of NPCs which just don't work, to actually make a game beyond simple linear grind races.

I think you may have misconceptions about my suggestions. What I want to support is simply positive player interaction, not what you call 'positive opposition'.

(What I see as the biggest problem with Open, and what drives many players away, is the fact that it's much easier to be killed by another player than to play TOGETHER with another player.)

For example, if you have a system of getting players doing the same mission together in open, that helps THEM, because they get to do a better-paying wing mission together. But it also helps the enemy faction, because in order to DO that wing mission, those players have to be in Open in the first place, and they can therefore be attacked.

At no point have I advocated making the current system of competitive hauling more dominant. Much the opposite, in fact, I want to encourage players to play in Open, but do so by accentuating the existing benefits of playing in open, which are meeting and playing together with other players.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think you may have misconceptions about my suggestions. What I want to support is simply positive player interaction, not what you call 'positive opposition'.
(What I see as the biggest problem with Open, and what drives many players away, is the fact that it's much easier to be killed by another player than to play TOGETHER with another player.)

For example, if you have a system of getting players doing the same mission together in open, that helps THEM, because they get to do a better-paying wing mission together. But it also helps the enemy faction, because in order to DO that wing mission, those players have to be in Open in the first place, and they can therefore be attacked.

At no point have I advocated making the current system of competitive hauling more dominant. Much the opposite, in fact, I want to encourage players to play in Open, but do so by accentuating the existing benefits of playing in open, which are meeting and playing together with other players.

I'm confused by what you say- in Powerplay in Open you do play together anyway, for example UM wings,to share merits, or prepping, or fortifying.

In fact what you ask is not that far from Open anyway, its just you think (or it comes across like) you think someone logs in and are instantly surrounded by slavering psychopaths. Its not like that at all, people play together within the Power, have friendly rivalries and have a laugh. Its in a powers best interests to train and nurture, and thats what they do.

 

[DemiserofD]

I'm confused by what you say- in Powerplay in Open you do play together anyway, for example UM wings,to share merits, or prepping, or fortifying.

In fact what you ask is not that far from Open anyway, its just you think (or it comes across like) you think someone logs in and are instantly surrounded by slavering psychopaths. Its not like that at all, people play together within the Power, have friendly rivalries and have a laugh. Its in a powers best interests to train and nurture, and thats what they do.

And yet, that's not the typical player's first or last experience with Open. In fact, I'd say that's a profound minority of players experience. It certainly wasn't mine.

My experience was basically this. You start out in Open, and you're excited to see what the universe will offer you. Then you get blown up in your first engineer system for no reason. So you switch to solo.

Then, you want to get into Powerplay. You go to the powerplay menu and find a Power you like, and Pledge. You go to their home system and struggle to find what to do, where you can haul merits to be helpful. You post in system chat, but nobody responds. You tentatively haul a few loads to a system that's green on the powerplay map, but even if you get that system to first place, everyone instead votes to Fortify, and your merits are wasted.

Confused, you try to find someone to ask about this ingame, but there's nobody responding, so you give up and leave.

I have NEVER had a friendly Open experience that lasted more than a few minutes. And trust me, I've tried. Many times. At the same time, I've had gankers blowing me up, I've had multicrew shooting the station, I've had wingmates sitting back and trying to mooch off my effort.

When every experience seems to be negative, with no benefits to be found, what makes you think people will stick around?

Now I can't speak for everyone, but I KNOW that there are MANY, MANY players who face the exact same problems.

That's exactly why I make the suggestions I do.

Missions, to help guide players in the direction they should go, and get them invested in their Power.

Facilitating Wings, to get players working together towards a common goal.

Bulletin Boards, for the more experienced players to post content INGAME that will help players figure out the universe.

None of these things will hurt you or your playstyle, so I'm profoundly perplexed that you would fight against them so strongly, in favor of something actively hurts other players and, in the opinions of many players, would not only NOT help you, but would in fact HURT you and your desired playstyle in the long run.

 

[Rubbernuke]

And yet, that's not the typical player's first or last experience with Open. In fact, I'd say that's a profound minority of players experience. It certainly wasn't mine.

My experience was basically this. You start out in Open, and you're excited to see what the universe will offer you. Then you get blown up in your first engineer system for no reason. So you switch to solo.

Then, you want to get into Powerplay. You go to the powerplay menu and find a Power you like, and Pledge. You go to their home system and struggle to find what to do, where you can haul merits to be helpful. You post in system chat, but nobody responds. You tentatively haul a few loads to a system that's green on the powerplay map, but even if you get that system to first place, everyone instead votes to Fortify, and your merits are wasted.

Confused, you try to find someone to ask about this ingame, but there's nobody responding, so you give up and leave.

I have NEVER had a friendly Open experience that lasted more than a few minutes. And trust me, I've tried. Many times. At the same time, I've had gankers blowing me up, I've had multicrew shooting the station, I've had wingmates sitting back and trying to mooch off my effort.

When every experience seems to be negative, with no benefits to be found, what makes you think people will stick around?

Now I can't speak for everyone, but I KNOW that there are MANY, MANY players who face the exact same problems.

That's exactly why I make the suggestions I do.

Missions, to help guide players in the direction they should go, and get them invested in their Power.

Facilitating Wings, to get players working together towards a common goal.

Bulletin Boards, for the more experienced players to post content INGAME that will help players figure out the universe.

And I had the exact opposite, and I'm not alone either in it.

I used to play Powerplay solo, until one day I chose the wrong option and wondered why NPCs were talking to me, it turned out I was talking to one of the main guys of my Power. We chatted, and others came on and we formed a wing to do some work.

Someone was 5Cing my power. I flew out to check, and it was a new guy, who I contacted and brought to the Reddit I ran and they then found what they needed.

I've flown unarmed paper thin Asps to all engineer bases, and not once have I been shot at or killed. Sure it was tense being nose to nose with a highly armed rival, but we wearily edged past each other.

I could go on and on and on with the positive things that Open brings. The time I gave my PP boss a heart attack when they were flying a T-9 and I was in a Corvette. Or the time during a tense Powerplay expansion wing after wing of pledges were going at it, and having a brag afterwards on rival Reddits.

Just because your experience was crap, does not mean all of Open is crap. PP is not a pit of psychopaths, in a feature thats about many hands make light work its silly not to nurture new blood. Discords have whole sections on builds and training. Hell, in game powers who see lost ship go out of their way to contact people, join squadrons and share.

 

[PrincessMinMin]

OP, you make a lot of good points. Right now the game is heavly biased against anyone who enjoys combat\PvP. I feel the reason is that FDev wants a game that can "run itself", not requiring dev intervention. So people whining about having been killed by another player is something FDev has tried mightly to minimize, much to the detriment of the game. A lot of missed opportunity in ED some of which is the result of the dev's dismissive attitude.

 

[DemiserofD]

And I had the exact opposite, and I'm not alone either in it.

I used to play Powerplay solo, until one day I chose the wrong option and wondered why NPCs were talking to me, it turned out I was talking to one of the main guys of my Power. We chatted, and others came on and we formed a wing to do some work.

Someone was 5Cing my power. I flew out to check, and it was a new guy, who I contacted and brought to the Reddit I ran and they then found what they needed.

I've flown unarmed paper thin Asps to all engineer bases, and not once have I been shot at or killed. Sure it was tense being nose to nose with a highly armed rival, but we wearily edged past each other.

I could go on and on and on with the positive things that Open brings. The time I gave my PP boss a heart attack when they were flying a T-9 and I was in a Corvette. Or the time during a tense Powerplay expansion wing after wing of pledges were going at it, and having a brag afterwards on rival Reddits.

Just because your experience was crap, does not mean all of Open is crap. PP is not a pit of psychopaths, in a feature thats about many hands make light work its silly not to nurture new blood. Discords have whole sections on builds and training. Hell, in game powers who see lost ship go out of their way to contact people, join squadrons and share.

So you happened to stumble upon one of the main actors in your power, and you think that's a common experience?

deep breath

...let me back up.

You clearly enjoy high-stress, dangerous encounters. You've made that evident time and time again, that you find flying by the skin of your teeth, through dangerous territory, to be a fun and engaging experience. That's fine. I've got no issue with that.

But you must recognize that you, and other players like you, are already in open, and don't need to be drawn into it.

Can we accept this to be true?

(Y/N)

The players you need to draw in are not the players who already enjoy these things that currently exist. Because those players are already there.

The players you need to draw in are the players who don't enjoy these things as much.

Can we also accept this is true? They're not in Open already, because they don't find the current system to be enjoyable.

(Y/N)

So, following this truth, if you want these players to play in Open, you must change open to make open more...open...to them.

Because if you don't, they have no desire to play there.

Again, they do not enjoy the same things you do. If you want them to play with you, you must satisfy their desires and wants, not just your own.

If you want players to play a game, they must first enjoy that game. I think this is self-evident, do you agree?

(Y/N)

So, if we accept:

A: That we don't need to draw in players who are already in Open.

B: The players we DO need to draw in, DON'T enjoy playing in the current iteration of Open.

C: The way to get players to play a game, is to make that game fun for them.

Therefore,

D: In order to draw those players into Open, Open must be changed to make it more appealing to them.

---

To me, this all makes simple, logical sense.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

My experience FWIW - sorry to butt in! But I think it's experience that really shapes these sorts of views in this game, so more contribs the better eh.

Read threads about the horrific griefing that goes on in game and put off buying for ages for this and other reasons. What's the point if people just keep swatting you?

First session in solo. Why did I buy a multiplayer game for this? Okay open it is from now on. What no griefing? Oh, starter systems.

Exit starter systems.

What's the point of everything I'm doing? Need to join a group at some point, be sociable (ew!).

Powerplay looks to add depth, how do I do that. Whoa now this can't be done individually. Do some research and join a discord group. Great community, never look back (other powers may vary). Where are these griefers again? Deciat, Dav's hope, mining hotspots. Well it's not that bad, mostly I make it through in Deciat, but would love to make it safer in open for those discouraged. Mining can be hairy. CGs you quickly learn what you're getting into. PP can be aggressive but I understand the nature of the competition happening.

Hitting the gank wall late makes a big difference I have to assume.

 

[DemiserofD]

My experience FWIW - sorry to butt in! But I think it's experience that really shapes these sorts of views in this game, so more contribs the better eh.

Read threads about the horrific griefing that goes on in game and put off buying for ages for this and other reasons. What's the point if people just keep swatting you?

First session in solo. Why did I buy a multiplayer game for this? Okay open it is from now on. What no griefing? Oh, starter systems.

Exit starter systems.

What's the point of everything I'm doing? Need to join a group at some point, be sociable (ew!).

Powerplay looks to add depth, how do I do that. Whoa now this can't be done individually. Do some research and join a discord group. Great community, never look back (other powers may vary). Where are these griefers again? Deciat, Dav's hope, mining hotspots. Well it's not that bad, mostly I make it through in Deciat, but would love to make it safer in open for those discouraged. Mining can be hairy. CGs you quickly learn what you're getting into. PP can be aggressive but I understand the nature of the competition happening.

Hitting the gank wall late makes a big difference I have to assume.

It seems that, again and again, the only people who have any degree of success are those who don't actually play the early game. They do some research, find an external tool or source or guide(or happen to stumble upon a leader of a powerplay faction), and skip right over it.

All I want is for that part to be ingame. That's it. No discord groups, but bulletin boards. No LFG subreddits, but wing matchmaking. And so on.

I don't think these are massive requests.

 

[Rubbernuke]

So you happened to stumble upon one of the main actors in your power, and you think that's a common experience?

deep breath

...let me back up.

Its not hard when part of the feature has explicit territory that you have to go to, is it? Capitals being like, important hubs and all, clearly marked.

You clearly enjoy high-stress, dangerous encounters. You've made that evident time and time again, that you find flying by the skin of your teeth, through dangerous territory, to be a fun and engaging experience. That's fine. I've got no issue with that.

But you must recognize that you, and other players like you, are already in open, and don't need to be drawn into it.

Can we accept this to be true?

(Y/N)

Well, of course.

The players you need to draw in are not the players who already enjoy these things that currently exist. Because those players are already there.

The players you need to draw in are the players who don't enjoy these things as much.

Can we also accept this is true? They're not in Open already, because they don't find the current system to be enjoyable.

(Y/N)

This is not a Y/N question, because the people 'we need to draw in' don't come from some pigeonholed space. Some people simply want something new to try.

So, following this truth

Its not, but I'll humour you anyway because its late

if you want these players to play in Open, you must change open to make open more...open...to them.

Or, just give people a compelling reason to try it, like many do- like I did.

Because if you don't, they have no reason to play there.

You can;t please everyone, because you then wind up with what PP is now, a compromise that satisfies no-one.

Again, they do not enjoy the same things you do. If you want them to play with you, you must satisfy their desires and wants, not just your own.

If you want players to play a game, they must first enjoy that game. I think this is self-evident, do you agree?

(Y/N)

Again, this is your truth, your spin. I get you need to attract people, but you have to have something unique enough to try. How is having a second rate BGS with shiny toys compelling enough?

So, if we accept:

I don't accept it, putting it bluntly.

A: That we don't need to draw in players who are already in Open.

You forget players in open who never have tried objective based play like Open PP has.

B: The players we DO need to draw in, DON'T enjoy playing in the current iteration of Open.

See above.

C: The way to get players to play a game, is to make that game fun for them.

Its to offer something compelling enough to risk trying it.

D: In order to draw those players into Open, Open must be changed to make it more appealing to them.

I think from all of this its you projecting your dislike for Open rather than being objective about Open Powerplay, really.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

It seems that, again and again, the only people who have any degree of success are those who don't actually play the early game. They do some research, find an external tool or source or guide(or happen to stumble upon a leader of a powerplay faction), and skip right over it.

All I want is for that part to be ingame. That's it. No discord groups, but bulletin boards. No LFG subreddits, but wing matchmaking. And so on.

I don't think these are massive requests.

I mean, I condensed a lot of time there and I'm not a game-skipper (relogs, easy money, mapping etc still stuff I mostly avoid), but use 3rd party tools that realistically would exist within the game's ideal form. But nothing you could implement practically in-game will replace the third party tools now, they are too good (inara in game really?) and if it ain't broke, in that respect, no-one's going to fix it.

Doesn't mean there can't be better in-game tools and means to communicate and share info - and to make player activity meaningfully and helpfully more visible without destroying immersion/realism.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I actually like the tools, they are part of and extend elite culture.

 

[Northpin]

OP, you make a lot of good points. Right now the game is heavly biased against anyone who enjoys combat\PvP. I feel the reason is that FDev wants a game that can "run itself", not requiring dev intervention. So people whining about having been killed by another player is something FDev has tried mightly to minimize, much to the detriment of the game. A lot of missed opportunity in ED some of which is the result of the dev's dismissive attitude.

You missed a NOT there.
As in the game is biased against anyone NOT enjoying PVP.

Why? A big part of this game involves flying ships. People usually optimize their ship for their chosen roles.
PVP-ers can enjoy flying highly optimized ships in Open. And they can actually enjoy flying those ships while doing their favorite activity which is PVP

Traders, explorers, mines, whatever non-combat profession - have to make a lot of compromises to their beloved ships so they can survive a potential PVP interdiction, diminishing their efficiency in doing their favorite job
And they have to endure the potential PVP encounters disrupting their favorite, non-combat activities, if they want to play in open (for whatever social/coop reasons)

So yea, it's the combat pilots that are enforcing their ways over the non-combat focused pilots.
And they are still the ones being vocal about it in a game that is not pvp focused and does not have a single ingame objective that requires killing of another player
Ironic, eh?


The only missed opportunity was FD not having PVE and PVP modes. or a mixed mode that allowed PVP only in certain zones / regions / instances / yougetmypoint.
Instead that, they tailored the game for Solo, PG and Open - without any ModeOnly activities, but giving equal weight to all modes, but with a certain added bonus for coop play - wing bonuses and the likes.

Offtopic, i know - sorry OP

 

[DemiserofD]

Its not hard when part of the feature has explicit territory that you have to go to, is it? Capitals being like, important hubs and all, clearly marked.



Well, of course.



This is not a Y/N question, because the people 'we need to draw in' don't come from some pigeonholed space. Some people simply want something new to try.



Its not, but I'll humour you anyway because its late



Or, just give people a compelling reason to try it, like many do- like I did.



You can;t please everyone, because you then wind up with what PP is now, a compromise that satisfies no-one.



Again, this is your truth, your spin. I get you need to attract people, but you have to have something unique enough to try. How is having a second rate BGS with shiny toys compelling enough?



I don't accept it, putting it bluntly.



You forget players in open who never have tried objective based play like Open PP has.



See above.



Its to offer something compelling enough to risk trying it.



I think from all of this its you projecting your dislike for Open rather than being objective about Open Powerplay, really.

I do dislike open. That's because I think that open in general, and open Powerplay, have exactly the same fundamental problems. They facilitate negative player interaction and not positive player interaction. I think that fixing Open Powerplay can help fix Open in general at the same time!

By making it easier to wing up with strangers, adding stronger and better means of ingame communication, etc!

It's the perfect solution to everything, not just Powerplay. You have yet to give any reason why these are bad solutions, other than "It's a copy of BGS"(A good thing, BGS is an existing system that works much better than Powerplay) and "I don't like it!"(that's okay, these suggestions aren't for people already in Open, they're to get new people into Open).

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I do dislike open. That's because I think that open in general, and open Powerplay, have exactly the same fundamental problems. They facilitate negative player interaction and not positive player interaction. I think that fixing Open Powerplay can help fix Open in general at the same time!

By making it easier to wing up with strangers, adding stronger and better means of ingame communication, etc!

It's the perfect solution to everything, not just Powerplay. You have yet to give any reason why these are bad solutions, other than "It's a copy of BGS"(A good thing, BGS is an existing system that works much better than Powerplay) and "I don't like it!"(that's okay, these suggestions aren't for people already in Open, they're to get new people into Open).

They're not necessarily solutions but agree the game doesn't organise positive activities well, and C&P is not gappy, it's more gap than substance.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

Traders, explorers, mines, whatever non-combat profession - have to make a lot of compromises to their beloved ships so they can survive a potential PVP interdiction, diminishing their efficiency in doing their favorite job

Compromises like this feel like intended gameplay, that gankers (not PvPers, you've made a frightful conflation there) happen to enforce, I guess. If it's imbalanced that's an issue with engineering being overpowered, etc, not powerplay. But agree it should be possible to make a living in high security areas without continuous fear of destruction (actually it already is in open, largely, regardless of security; engineering's a different matter). It should be possible to make a fortune, by comparison, in low sec areas.

 

[Hullreaver]

Regarding the OP, I really doubt that creating open only power play would suddenly turn it into some pvp dream, or pvp nightmare, depending on your point of view. People looking for pvp are already in open and if you are flying around in open now, it is not like it is wall-to-wall players. It is pretty much a wasteland. I rarely see other players in open and even if I go to a power's system, you may see one or two other players. Rarely more than that. Where is all of the pvp carnage? Oh, never mind, it is in Deciat.

However, people are able to affect pp in solo mode with impunity, which really is not correct, imho.