The fundamental problem with making Powerplay Open-Only.

[DemiserofD]

Regarding the OP, I really doubt that creating open only power play would suddenly turn it into some pvp dream, or pvp nightmare, depending on your point of view. People looking for pvp are already in open and if you are flying around in open now, it is not like it is wall-to-wall players. It is pretty much a wasteland. I rarely see other players in open and even if I go to a power's system, you may see one or two other players. Rarely more than that. Where is all of the pvp carnage? Oh, never mind, it is in Deciat.

However, people are able to affect pp in solo mode with impunity, which really is not correct, imho.

You're quite right, I don't think the Open experience would change much, if at all.

The primary difference would be behind the scenes. Players who don't enjoy being in Open would just...stop playing. The less people involved in powerplay, no matter where they're active, the less interesting it becomes to other players. This causes a butterfly effect, as the players who were sticking around in some part due to the efforts of solo players leave, the pvp players have less things to shoot at, causing them to leave as well, eventually leading to a complete collapse.

Oh, sure, there would always be a few people pledged, hanging around, poking the system here and there for a bit, but make no mistake, twitching or not, the body would still be dead.

 

[Northpin]

Compromises like this feel like intended gameplay,

That would be valid if pvp-ers would have to make the same compromises... which is not the case
Also a PVP-er, if killed, will lose only the rebuy value of his ship
A trader, explorer, miner, mission runner will lose the rebuy, plus whatever progress made before (losing missions, vouchers, exploration data, cargo, etc)

So basically a pvp-er has all the positives in his gameplay while a non-combat pilot has all the negaives.

 

[Hullreaver]

Players who don't enjoy being in Open would just...stop playing.

Well, some may, but some would choose to switch to open if they want to get involved in PP, but that is just my opinion. I did a lot of fortifying, all in open, and not once was I interdicted by a player. I got pacifiers, pack-hounds, imperial hammers, etc. Similarly, on my alt account, I was commited to a power for over a year and finally I just quit doing it, because it was boring. There was really no one there. I guess I could have just done it in solo and it would have been just about as dangerous.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

That would be valid if pvp-ers would have to make the same compromises... which is not the case
Also a PVP-er, if killed, will lose only the rebuy value of his ship
A trader, explorer, miner, mission runner will lose the rebuy, plus whatever progress made before (losing missions, vouchers, exploration data, cargo, etc)

So basically a pvp-er has all the positives in his gameplay while a non-combat pilot has all the negaives.

But if the person who shot at you succeeds in destroying you he gains nothing. He has a temporary, somehow satisfying experience I suppose, but no cash. Being blown up, meanwhile, doesn't destroy your amazing experience exploring (although colours it with a rather rough story-ending at the hands of someone you'll feel... unsympathetic towards). You'll lose credits and discovery markers. You'll keep materials (wooee!). Getting to the station, meanwhile ("succeeding" in your chosen activity), can give you large in-game financial and kudos rewards. Just a perspective. I choose exploring here because it's the activity where being ganked after a long trip would be the most gutting for me I think. I'm not sure how explorer ganking works, mind you, given how empty space is - clinch points I guess where there's likely to be people, including the lawless, one supposes, in such far, poorly policed places. Contingencies and preparation would be required to mitigate the risk (planning my trip here hehe).

Anyway I get your point, but nothing I've heard to date can realistically solve player vulnerability in "anarchy" areas (e.g. exploring) except banning PvP or something that amounts to the same thing. In high sec areas, there's a strong argument for more stringent or creative C&P measures, but that's not powerplay so I'll leave that to other threads.

 

[DemiserofD]

Well, some may, but some would choose to switch to open if they want to get involved in PP, but that is just my opinion. I did a lot of fortifying, all in open, and not once was I interdicted by a player. I got pacifiers, pack-hounds, imperial hammers, etc. Similarly, on my alt account, I was commited to a power for over a year and finally I just quit doing it, because it was boring. There was really no one there. I guess I could have just done it in solo and it would have been just about as dangerous.

This works so long as the population remains small , but quickly breaks down as populations increase. Look up Price's Law; the basic summary is, 50% of the work is done by the square root of the total population. This is just fine with numbers like 10, where the square root is 3, but with 100, the square root is 10, and if you get as high as 10000, the square root is just 100.

It's a serious problem, one they haven't been able to solve as of yet in real life.

 

[K7Hyperion]

And that's the problem with moving Powerplay to Open-Only. It shifts the balance of power ENTIRELY to the combat, putting it 100% at the whims of the combat players.

After thinking it over, I tried to put myself in your shoes. Ultimately, I do not see this as a problem at all. In fact, I see this as what PP should be aspiring to become.

Allow me to explain.

Combat, escorts and blockades, become more important but in a strategic sense. Each faction only has a limited number of pilots on their roster, fulfilling both combat and delivery roles in PP. What becomes important every week is deciding how each team approaches the chess board strategically. "Do we attempt to expand, or do we prioritize maintaining control of our systems and repelling enemy expansion attempts?" Factions that commit to overextending in an expansion attempt will leave themselves vulnerable to attack, and vice versa. This will force an unforeseen level of strategic emersion that will likely revitalize what has become a stale gameplay mode that the majority of players only participate in for the unique modules...additionally,

Yes, the cargo hauler can bring escorts, but again, that puts power 100% in the domain of the combat players, with the cargo hauler a subservient second class.

Again, this is effectively a 1:1 simulation of proper interstellar war in the bubble. There is no reason that a 100% dedicated cargo hauler should have any power beyond its ability and role to deliver its cargo. So what's the solution then? Misdirection and screening tactics are limited; if a faction wants to take a system, they have to jump into the main star, which can be blockaded by the defending faction. So maybe instead of defenseless hauling wings of 790Tn Type 9s you will start to see "Combat Fortifiers". Think along the lines of a hybrid Corvette that's outfitted for battle, but has sacrificed some optional internals to haul 320Tn. Maybe in some instances factions may risk running a those Cargo-only wings in a push to meet the trigger value, it becomes a game of risk/reward - just like proper war.

In war, supply lines are everything. And cargo haulers, while important in their objective, can be outweighed by the fighting unit (in that 1 instanced of battle). Check how well the German's Operation Barbarossa faired in the Russian winter of 1941. Elite's current setup of allowing free-range fortification of hostile powers (enabled by Solo Mode) completely limits the game mode from reaching its true potential, and giving factions (and the earning of their pledge modules) proper significance in-game.

 

[K7Hyperion]

You're quite right, I don't think the Open experience would change much, if at all.

The primary difference would be behind the scenes. Players who don't enjoy being in Open would just...stop playing. The less people involved in powerplay, no matter where they're active, the less interesting it becomes to other players. This causes a butterfly effect, as the players who were sticking around in some part due to the efforts of solo players leave, the pvp players have less things to shoot at, causing them to leave as well, eventually leading to a complete collapse.

Oh, sure, there would always be a few people pledged, hanging around, poking the system here and there for a bit, but make no mistake, twitching or not, the body would still be dead.

In that case, PP as a game mode is dead in the water as it stands and FDev should just scrap it. Everyone is discussing and comparing the current PP or PVP experience with Solo Mode enabled; sparsely populated, rarely seeing players. It IS a wasteland, precisely because its currently not worth anyone's time beyond the hardcore who are coordinating in discord channels...Fixing powerplay has to go beyond restricting Solo Mode in order to make it work.

For the move to Open to be successful, it would need to be backed in-game by additional features that only a complete redesign could bring. System-wise FDev would need to implement some form of in dedicated faction chat, Faction HQ, or message board to allow players to coordinate in-game. There would need to be harsher penalties/bounties and time restrictions/lock-out period, for defecting to different powers. To be honest I have no idea how those Discord faction chats are managed but I'm assuming they have some hierarchy of leadership that ultimately steers what gets done every week - a similar hierarchy would need to be implemented in-game, perhaps with different ranks (like the Federation or Empire) earnable by multiple threshold milestones (Total time pledged to power + enemy faction kills OR PP supplies delivered).

After the system changes, FDev needs to attract those PVP players that aimlessly gank or otherwise get their fix, with incentives. Additional special modules based on extended pledge times (multiple months). Decals that display enemy faction player kills. Dedicated faction ship kits. Etc, etc. There's an endless amount of practical ideas, but it would require significant development time to do properly. Elite has the right setting to become a large-scale MMO/PVP player's dream - the current build of the game is just not equipped to make it happen.

 

[PrincessMinMin]

You missed a NOT there.
As in the game is biased against anyone NOT enjoying PVP.

Wrong. Read again.

People usually optimize their ship for their chosen roles.
PVP-ers can enjoy flying highly optimized ships in Open.

Traders, explorers, mines, whatever non-combat profession - have to make a lot of compromises to their beloved ships so they can survive a potential PVP interdiction, diminishing their efficiency in doing their favorite job

Where is it written that people are entitled to doing things as efficiently as possible? If being attacked gets in the way of your efficiency, go to Solo\PG. That's why they are there.

And they have to endure the potential PVP encounters disrupting their favorite, non-combat activities, if they want to play in open (for whatever social/coop reasons)

So yea, it's the combat pilots that are enforcing their ways over the non-combat focused pilots.

Strawman. And spare me the tired victim card. That is the nature of PvP combat. And as said before, you can hide in Solo\PG.

The only missed opportunity was FD not having PVE and PVP modes. or a mixed mode...

Wrong. FDev decided that we should be able to attack each other's ships, interdict them, hatch break them, etc in the actual game world (not some special PvP-only zone like CQC). That can only happen in Open (or PG if the PG owner says it is ok). The missed opportunity is not running with that feature.

 

[DemiserofD]

Combat, escorts and blockades, become more important but in a strategic sense. Each faction only has a limited number of pilots on their roster, fulfilling both combat and delivery roles in PP. What becomes important every week is deciding how each team approaches the chess board strategically. "Do we attempt to expand, or do we prioritize maintaining control of our systems and repelling enemy expansion attempts?" Factions that commit to overextending in an expansion attempt will leave themselves vulnerable to attack, and vice versa. This will force an unforeseen level of strategic emersion that will likely revitalize what has become a stale gameplay mode that the majority of players only participate in for the unique modules...additionally,

This is all fun...if you like combat.

If what you like is instead hauling, it is all very much not fun.

Lets put it in a way you'd understand. Imagine if your only job as a combat player was following me around as I mine. That means killing one enemy while I drop in, then following me around the ring for the next two hours as I slowly fill my hold. You can't go afk, you can't fly around doing acrobatics. All you can do is follow me as I mine.

Sound boring as hell? Sound like a game you wouldn't like to play?

I'd never expect a combat player to do that, because it's not what a combat player enjoys.

So why do you expect a hauling player to do the equal opposite, just to make your gameplay more fun?

What it sounds like you really want is a bunch of NPC haulers that will do the hauling part while you do combat around them. Which honestly could probably be a better solution, the whole merit hauling system never made much sense to me, it feels half-baked at best.

 

[DemiserofD]

In that case, PP as a game mode is dead in the water as it stands and FDev should just scrap it. Everyone is discussing and comparing the current PP or PVP experience with Solo Mode enabled; sparsely populated, rarely seeing players. It IS a wasteland, precisely because its currently not worth anyone's time beyond the hardcore who are coordinating in discord channels...Fixing powerplay has to go beyond restricting Solo Mode in order to make it work.

For the move to Open to be successful, it would need to be backed in-game by additional features that only a complete redesign could bring. System-wise FDev would need to implement some form of in dedicated faction chat, Faction HQ, or message board to allow players to coordinate in-game. There would need to be harsher penalties/bounties and time restrictions/lock-out period, for defecting to different powers. To be honest I have no idea how those Discord faction chats are managed but I'm assuming they have some hierarchy of leadership that ultimately steers what gets done every week - a similar hierarchy would need to be implemented in-game, perhaps with different ranks (like the Federation or Empire) earnable by multiple threshold milestones (Total time pledged to power + enemy faction kills OR PP supplies delivered).

After the system changes, FDev needs to attract those PVP players that aimlessly gank or otherwise get their fix, with incentives. Additional special modules based on extended pledge times (multiple months). Decals that display enemy faction player kills. Dedicated faction ship kits. Etc, etc. There's an endless amount of practical ideas, but it would require significant development time to do properly. Elite has the right setting to become a large-scale MMO/PVP player's dream - the current build of the game is just not equipped to make it happen.

That's exactly how I see things. Powerplay needs a substantial expansion to keep up with other aspects of the game that have evolved, leaving it behind.

And if you do those things and do them well, then open-only becomes superfluous. Design things right and people will play in Open of their own free will, for the social aspects and benefits of wing bonuses, and so on and so forth.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

This is all fun...if you like combat.

If what you like is instead hauling, it is all very much not fun.

Lets put it in a way you'd understand. Imagine if your only job as a combat player was following me around as I mine. That means killing one enemy while I drop in, then following me around the ring for the next two hours as I slowly fill my hold. You can't go afk, you can't fly around doing acrobatics. All you can do is follow me as I mine.

Sound boring as hell? Sound like a game you wouldn't like to play?

I'd never expect a combat player to do that, because it's not what a combat player enjoys.

So why do you expect a hauling player to do the equal opposite, just to make your gameplay more fun?

What it sounds like you really want is a bunch of NPC haulers that will do the hauling part while you do combat around them. Which honestly could probably be a better solution, the whole merit hauling system never made much sense to me, it feels half-baked at best.

It's very simple: don't play competitive game mechanics if you don't like competition.

I think the suggestion from back in August linked by @Rubbernuke would be an excellent overhaul to PP, and offer unique experiences to both camps - those who play open, and those who don't. You still get all the benefits of being pledged and supporting your power, but it allows you to cater your PP experience to your liking.

 

[DemiserofD]

It's very simple: don't play competitive game mechanics if you don't like competition.

Why should your variant of competition take preference over my variant of competition?

You don't need to shoot other people to compete, after all. CGs demonstrate this quite well. In fact, I'd bet there are significantly more players who like to compete via hauling than those who like to compete via killing each other.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

Why should your variant of competition take preference over my variant of competition?

You don't need to shoot other people to compete, after all. CGs demonstrate this quite well. In fact, I'd bet there are significantly more players who like to compete via hauling than those who like to compete via killing each other.

You make assumptions that I'm a combat pilot. I'm not. Hauling is 90% of what I do.

 

[DemiserofD]

You make assumptions that I'm a combat pilot. I'm not. Hauling is 90% of what I do.

I mean, that doesn't change the question. Why should combat competition be more valued than trading competition?

 

[Elliot Coleman]

I mean, that doesn't change the question. Why should combat competition be more valued than trading competition?

What measures does one currently have available for competing in hauling, in terms of PP? Are you able to sabotage? Are you able to steal their cargo? Are you able to prevent the other team from reaching their destination?

No. It's only about who can haul more. There is really nothing competitive about that. So one side sits and AFKs while waiting on merit drops more than the other side. How absolutely competitive. Much effort. Such wow.

I don't like that there are only two ways to contribute to PP - mindless back and forth hauling and waiting (or hauling and paying with no return), or shooting things. Hence why I referenced Rubbernuke's suggestion in my comment, because, likely, people stopping in on this thread will not go back and read it all.

So, yes, as things sit right now, combat is leagues more competitive than hauling, and as such, should hold more value.

 

[BL1P]

You can check out any time you like... but you can never leave.

 

[DemiserofD]

What measures does one currently have available for competing in hauling, in terms of PP? Are you able to sabotage? Are you able to steal their cargo? Are you able to prevent the other team from reaching their destination?

No. It's only about who can haul more. There is really nothing competitive about that. So one side sits and AFKs while waiting on merit drops more than the other side. How absolutely competitive. Much effort. Such wow.

I don't like that there are only two ways to contribute to PP - mindless back and forth hauling and waiting (or hauling and paying with no return), or shooting things. Hence why I referenced Rubbernuke's suggestion in my comment, because, likely, people stopping in on this thread will not go back and read it all.

So, yes, as things sit right now, combat is leagues more competitive than hauling, and as such, should hold more value.

You enjoy combat. You see it as a more engaging and enjoyable activity.

I enjoy hauling. I see it as a more engaging and enjoyable activity.

Just because you separate out combat into different domains doesn't make it inherently more valuable or fun. Should I separate hauling out into orbital deceleration, rapid docking, and menu management?

Alternatively, I could diminish pvp by saying it's just about who can aim better. But likewise, that wouldn't be fair to combat.

Either way, making one dominant over the other isn't ideal. And that's all OOPP will achieve, just reversed from the current iteration.

If we want to talk about improving powerplay by adding new features that make it more desirable for players to play in Open, then we can agree on that, but OOPP is just throwing me and those like me under the bus for the sake of others, which is no improvement.

 

[Elliot Coleman]

You enjoy combat. You see it as a more engaging and enjoyable activity.

I enjoy hauling. I see it as a more engaging and enjoyable activity.

Just because you separate out combat into different domains doesn't make it inherently more valuable or fun. Should I separate hauling out into orbital deceleration, rapid docking, and menu management?

Alternatively, I could diminish pvp by saying it's just about who can aim better. But likewise, that wouldn't be fair to combat.

Either way, making one dominant over the other isn't ideal. And that's all OOPP will achieve, just reversed from the current iteration.

If we want to talk about improving powerplay by adding new features that make it more desirable for players to play in Open, then we can agree on that, but OOPP is just throwing me and those like me under the bus for the sake of others, which is no improvement.

Is that not what the thread is about? Improving power play?

Yes, I took a swipe at you over the "eww combat" tone of your post. Some of you make it all too easy to poke you with a stick and ruffle your feathers.

Regardless, we can all agree that:

1) The chance of having open-only power play is about as likely as FDev revealing Raxxla.
2) Power play needs an overhaul (or a ground-up rework) so it offers fun, rewarding gameplay for the social and the anti-social alike, without leaning heavily in favor of one or the other.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I do dislike open. That's because I think that open in general, and open Powerplay, have exactly the same fundamental problems. They facilitate negative player interaction and not positive player interaction. I think that fixing Open Powerplay can help fix Open in general at the same time!

And I think Powerplay is the place for negative player interaction- i.e. PvP encounters. It has its own C+P, systems all isolated enough to offer it in a way that does not affect the wider game too much.

You also forget ED is not supposed to be 'nice'- it has 'negative player interactions' as an advertisement when you buy it. You also gloss over Powers are teams and not competitive within themselves (that is, they help each other out)- how is that not positive? They don't go out and kill everything on sight, but the things the feature requires as well. How is that not positive, and a way to have conflicts in a game building way?

By making it easier to wing up with strangers, adding stronger and better means of ingame communication, etc!

I can't argue against better communication tools, but its pointless when the best (Discord) out of the game already exists. Many parts of the game already use out of game tools, I can't see FD changing that. Winging up is easy now, you just ask them. New pledges just have to do that, or ask on Discord (like they do).

It's the perfect solution to everything, not just Powerplay. You have yet to give any reason why these are bad solutions, other than "It's a copy of BGS"(A good thing, BGS is an existing system that works much better than Powerplay) and "I don't like it!"(that's okay, these suggestions aren't for people already in Open, they're to get new people into Open).

I simply don't understand what you are actually suggesting, since it already exists- Discord Groups, Power groups, its just you feel that Open is evil and therefore anything which exists now in Open is not working. My problem is that Powerplay does not work across modes for the reasons I told you repeatedly about. With what FD have offered to change Open is the only thing that evens that out. I hope they change more, but until they offer to do so thats all we have.

 

[DemiserofD]

Is that not what the thread is about? Improving power play?

Well, yeah. Which is why making such a change, which would only shift things around and not actually improve anything, wouldn't be an optimal solution.

Yes, I took a swipe at you over the "eww combat" tone of your post. Some of you make it all too easy to poke you with a stick and ruffle your feathers.

I'm certainly sorry if I gave any impression of negativity or 'ruffled feathers'. I do my best to stay impassionate in these discussions, so as to better respond to people.

1) The chance of having open-only power play is about as likely as FDev revealing Raxxla.
2) Power play needs an overhaul (or a ground-up rework) so it offers fun, rewarding gameplay for the social and the anti-social alike, without leaning heavily in favor of one or the other.

Well I'm glad we can agree on that much at least

Honestly, just adding a bulletin board of some sort would help a lot and would be pretty simple. It would be a nice start, at least.