The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[Michael Brookes]

I think that postponing the feature intill it was thought out properly would have been the better bet. People only fly combat ships because they only want to do combat, the same for trade and exploration, and people fly multirole ships because they want to do a bit of everything.

Instant travel vitually removes the use of multirole ships, they will no be needed anymore it will be specialist ships only.

It has been thought out, and discussed at length, and we believe that it provides more benefit to the game in its current form - it will certainly be interesting to see how things progress in beta

Michael

 

[Jukelo]

But would have complicated development for a low priority feature, this way we were able to slip it into 2.2 - otherwise it might have been further into the future. Besides delay impacts the point of the feature and that is to allow greater use of people's ships.

Michael

Hey Michael,

As you say the point of the feature is to allow greater use of people's ships, have you considered to instead give a range boost to every ship in the game, for the sake of convenience and THEN add ship transfer with a delay (for the sake of believability and to avoid that whole 3d printing handwavium) for those wanting to actually relocate a large fleet of ships? The end result would be virtually the same but wouldn't pose such verisimilitude issues.

With the coming instant ship transfer, people will use a high range ship like the Hauler or Asp to moveto their destination, and then summon their low range combat/trade ships. Why not skip the transfer step altogether for them. And those wanting to relocate a whole fleet to their new homebase can do it via the ship transfer feature, and they probably don't need to use them right away so a delay wouldn't be a problem for them.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Called it.


Honestly, FD took all this time to build up a 1:1 galaxy, dozens of ships with different jump range characteristics, a consistent travel/distance/time doctrine...

...and then fumbles a lowest-possible-dev-effort "feature", which takes all that hard-won doctrine, and cuts it off at the knees.


It was instant because it was quick and dirty.

NOT because the galaxy just invented insta-ship-printing.
Or because pilots couldn't possibly live without zero-second transit times.
Or because "licenses".
Or because really fast mega transport ship networks.
Or because <whatever other invented reason> popped into discussions to paper over the giant cracks showing.



I mean, not even the devs themselves sound assured and confident about all these wacky possible ways it could work...


"Once you've accepted that it's instant, it's not really worth worrying too much about the details of how the ship got there" - Sandro Sammarco

"Besides in this case the convenience of the feature means that a little look away is required" - Michael Brookes



Terrible.

Now you're just trying to score points. If we didn't think the addition was worthwhile in its current form then we wouldn't have added it.

Michael

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Do you not see that it's insulting to tell the designer this "wasn't thought out properly" simply because you don't like it?

I haven't insulted anybody. Sometimes people can be too close to something to see the problems its to cause. Telling someone you haven't thought it through properly is not an insult. Saying the designer is an idiot for example is. I am not saying that.

I have given loads of reason why it is a wrong decision to include instant travel, it is not about disliking it, it about a game breaking idea when there could be better options available.

 

[Michael Brookes]

Hey Michael,

As you say the point of the feature is to allow greater use of people's ships, have you considered to instead give a range boost to every ship in the game, for the sake of convenience and THEN add ship transfer with a delay (for the sake of believability and to avoid that whole 3d printing handwavium) for those wanting to actually relocate a large fleet of ships? The end result would be virtually the same but wouldn't pose such verisimilitude issues.

No, because that then shrinks the initial journey to levels that are lower than we want.

Michael

 

[CMDR Pugwash]

The availability of shipyards may be required for the transport mechanism, but the mechanism itself makes most of these shipyards irrelevant.
No-one will be buying ships there or outfitting them there unless they offer a discount and all modules.

Perhaps to accompany ship teleportation shipyards should offer all ships and all modules. And since each shipyard will be competing with all other shipyards in the galaxy the prices should be exactly the same at the cheapest possible price.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

It has been thought out, and discussed at length, and we believe that it provides more benefit to the game in its current form - it will certainly be interesting to see how things progress in beta

Michael

If "feel" of ship transfer turns out problematic in beta, do you see yourselves delaying it as feature? I agree we lack data to discuss this further.

 

[Mohrgan]

You can't escape the fact that once you break from the 1 to 1 travel time that the general flight mechanic would require, any delay is just for cosmetics. Adding a token delay is just an element for an elements sake, only to reduce the utility of feature. We have instant re-spawn at the last station we docked at. Even if it has no Shipyard. If we can accept this as a method to keep the game flow going, there is nothing different in the ship/module transfer.

 

[Theodrid]

Do you not see that it's insulting to tell the designer this "wasn't thought out properly" simply because you don't like it?

That is not the case Pecisk, I can't reconcile the fact that this is meant to be a 'low profile feature' yet it was headlined at GC. If this is a headline feature, (as at GC), treat it as such, give it the time, money and thought it deserves, if it is a 'low profile' feature then do not code low profile features into the game that upsets the balance of ships, cg's, FSD's, the 1:1 galaxy and more.

There a far more ramifications to this feature than we have covered in the various threads and you can be damn sure a lot more will surface.

 

[[VR]tailgunner30uk]

I haven't seen many but please feel free to link them.

I guess I am in the instant camp. We already have instant provision of a replacement ship, fully equipped if the one we are flying is blown up. Perhaps rather we should be given a courtesy hauler whilst our insurance claim is processed, maybe 3 weeks! More seriously, I consider that I do not own a specific ship, rather the I own the right to fly that ship equipped in the manner I choose. Therefore, If I go to another station it can provide me with an identical ship and modules. Stations can replace any ship and module, but are only licensed so sell certain types.

 

[Michael Brookes]

If "feel" of ship transfer turns out problematic in beta, do you see yourselves delaying it as feature? I agree we lack data to discuss this further.

We would have to see what the issues were.

Michael

 

[Capta1nKirk]

Now you're just trying to score points. If we didn't think the addition was worthwhile in its current form then we wouldn't have added it.

Michael

So to be clear, you are saying it is worthwhile in the eyes of FDev, to sacrifice the credibility and scope of the galaxy you've been been building for years, for the sake of convenience ?

Will that trend continue with future updates and features ?

 

[Javert]

I think the issue for a few I've discussed it with is that it breaks the 4th wall in a way that seems to cross some invisible red line. You can say there are many things that you have to turn a blind eye to in the game of course, but for some of the players this seems to have crossed some kind of red line, even for players who normally seem to rationalize these things pretty well.

Personally, subject to beta testing, I can just about live with it, but would have preferred it to be on a timer. I'm teetering on the brink of saying I'd rather not have the feature at all if it has to be instant, but I would reserve judgement until the beta I guess.

 

[Niamhy]

if you want to use instant transfer, use it. if you don't, then don't. no-one is forcing you. and it isn't making people who DO want to use it suddenly some kind of "pay to win" or something. That honour goes to engineer mods

 

[Winterwalker]

In this instance the convenience was the overriding factor. That and keeping the feature within a sensible budget - complicating it unnecessarily introduces more points of failure and for a relatively small quality of life improvement, it's not worth the risk. The instant transfer also provides positive aspects to how players can interact the game - it gives them greater freedom to participate in wider aspects in what's going on. We did of course consider the downsides, and other ways of doing it - Sandy in fact was very much in favour of a delay, but it was felt that this weakened the utility of the feature. The point was to allow more freedom with ship use, not add additional barriers.

Michael

Full on, minutes per light year penalty might 'weaken the utility of the feature' but you still make an instant saving of half of the "buy taxi - go get ship - sell taxi - fly back" process, which is a vast improvement on the current, so instantly this feature is, a good utility.

A major problem for me is, what gets sacrificed. I understand the intellectual lore being developed is a 3D print of your ship but this means you're not retrieving your ship at all. For an example, any bobblehead you might have fitted, is almost magically appearing on the (personalised?) dash, and suddenly you're edging into science fantasy territory and the idea of your ship being your character is lost. I understand in ED we have human avatars but you'd hope your ship to be at least your trusted friend?

This seems airy or too negative, so I'd add .. when penal systems are harsh, docking authorities fierce, NPC's able, gravity makes you crash, what may seem an 'obstacle' to the utility can become a 'doorway' to gameplay that could (I'm very sure) add character to the galaxy and richness. Different haulage companies? Some scam artists, who nick or damage modules? Some, ClassAA who'll tune your engines maybe? There are more ideas, eg. someone steals your ENTIRE ship (stuff happens) you get a mission to go and "apprehend" him ... personally I think that's fun? Frontier, please to try to kill us, in ever more unexpected ways!

I think the (code) engine is one for the missions design department ultimately (timers, NPC's offering to move your ship for you) .. I DON'T think Frontier need to concern with accurately designing routes, only give the semblance, illusory (not talking about programming the ship to actually move or anything). I'm also sure that people would understand that this could not develop all at once but .. "docking is difficult" .. obstacles are fun!

o7

 

[Michael Brookes]

I guess I am in the instant camp. We already have instant provision of a replacement ship, fully equipped if the one we are flying is blown up. Perhaps rather we should be given a courtesy hauler whilst our insurance claim is processed, maybe 3 weeks! More seriously, I consider that I do not own a specific ship, rather the I own the right to fly that ship equipped in the manner I choose. Therefore, If I go to another station it can provide me with an identical ship and modules. Stations can replace any ship and module, but are only licensed so sell certain types.

The low priority is that it is a quality of life feature, as opposed to new gameplay, although in this case it does significantly impact gameplay.

Michael

 

[Ziljan]

Not really - you still need to travel - and the availability of shipyards are a relatively small part of the galaxy. Yes it will shake things up in colonised space (it's meant to), but there's lots going elsewhere which require the usual travel mechanics.

Michael

99.9997% of what happens in game, happens inside the bubble.

Realize, it took me 2 weeks to get my combat fitted FDL jump range up to 20 LY. No mean feat. Now all that is wasted effort.

Why should I trust any grind you set up going forward?

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Funny enough, anybody can show me a feature request for instant ship transfer that happend before Gamescom? If such a thing exist I think its quite a rarity. I can be wrong of course...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

We would have to see what the issues were.

Michael

Definitely. Thanks for your time discussing Michael, this is huge deal.

 

[andrak]

So when is player teleportation coming? Or being able to "fast travel" to a system just because you've been there before once?

I mean, the illusion of a 1:1 scale galaxy is shattered already with instant ship transfer, why not go the whole hog..

Do you realise the precedent this sets on eroding the ethos of the original game?