The Grind - You Weren't Kidding!
- Thread starter Evoflash
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rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
I partially agree. The reward system could be better in Elite. It's not perfect, but I don't think it's bad. Elite is pretty much a total sandbox where you need to set your own goals and the reward is achieving those goals.
Naval mechanics is very basic and it does require further development and improvements.
I think that people tend to forget that Elite is not a complete game. I am no expert by any means, but from what I can tell, it's being developed top-down, as in many basic elements are added first (the top, high level type) - they form the base and allow for the game to be actually played. Those basics are then improved and developed further into more complex and better functions (the bottom layer, low level, detailed stuff). Once you realise and accept that fact (although like I said I am no expert, it's just my observation and interpretation of the development model) you'll learn to avoid getting involved in things that are still pretty much placeholders. And there are many of those, no denying. But equally - a lot of things are well developed and allowing for an involved gameplay that is no grind at all.
That's my take on the game at least.
Let me quote the classic:
[video=youtube;pWdd6_ZxX8c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c[/video]
Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean it's like that. It's not a fact - it's an opinion. One of what, 7 million? (Or however many players ED has).
I consider myself a fanboy, yes. It's not a pejorative term. To me it means I have a passion for this game.
It DOES have flaws, no question about it. It lacks in many aspects and there are a lot of placeholders. But, patch by patch, the game is getting better.
The grind is self-imposed. (That's just like, you know, my opinion man).
Did you consider that maybe, just maybe, it is YOU who don't understand what Elite is all about? Perhaps you want it to be something it's not?
If he's told me that, I'd just quit and find a new job. Maybe that's what you should do...?
Been playing since June, 2016. Am a Rear-Admiral (Corvette) in the FED Navy and an Earl (2 Ranks away from a Cutter) in the IMP Navy. I started grinding IMP rank over Christmas and leveled up 4 ranks over New-Year's weekend in casual, part-time play. Yes, it's "grindy". So is getting up every day and going to work, but you do it, because you have to. Elite Dangerous is not a game for "goal-oriented" people unless they are the type who set their own goals and achieve them. ED does not spoon feed players the objectives, the CMDR must define themselves and their goals. When a goal is achieved the CMDR must set new, higher goals. That is about as goal-oriented as ED gets and sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do . . . grind it out, just like working all that extra overtime to earn that bonus so you can go on vacation. It would be interesting to do a poll asking how many Elite Dangerous players prefer sailing (process-oriented) to power-boating (goal-oriented).
But don't fixate on any single goal! I am usually pursuing several different goals at any given time. I am currently grinding Engineers and IMP Rank (for the Cutter) as well as participating in CGs and of course, earning. When one job gets frustrating or boring I work on another for a while. Got bored grinding IMP rank at Aditi so moved to HIP 10716 and am grinding IMP rank there, just a change in venue but adds a little variety.
But don't fixate on any single goal! I am usually pursuing several different goals at any given time. I am currently grinding Engineers and IMP Rank (for the Cutter) as well as participating in CGs and of course, earning. When one job gets frustrating or boring I work on another for a while. Got bored grinding IMP rank at Aditi so moved to HIP 10716 and am grinding IMP rank there, just a change in venue but adds a little variety.
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Why should I do that? I was merely pointing out that "lower your expectations" isn't really a solution to poor game design.
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You have not got to rear admiral and earned enough to buy a Corvette in 6 months of "casual play". I've been playing this game since Beta, pretty solidly for the first 6 months or so, more casually since and although I hold the rank of rear admiral I have nowhere near the funds to buy a Corvette, or even an Anaconda. Defend the game by all means, but at least have the decency to do so honestly instead of leaving players thinking that it's possible to make progress at a reasonable rate when it absolutely 100% isn't unless you're stacking/mode switching or otherwise exploiting.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
I completely agree with you. It's not a solution at all.
But Elite is not poorly designed, it's quite well designed. So your statement does not apply.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one
Exactly. That's why I wrote what I wrote above about statements like that being just opinions.
What I don't understand why people get involved in playing a game they don't enjoy, keep doing it and then complain they don't enjoy it... It's just puzzling for me. One thing that comes to my mind is - expectations. They expect Elite to be something it's not and don't want to accept that.
I'll give you an analogy. Two even.
I hate gyms. I prefer to do sports outside - fresh air, open space, sunshine and so on. So imagine me buying a yearly gym pass, go to the gym and complain that the gym is poor experience, because it's inside, it smells with sweat and there is not enough room for me. Plus, it makes me do repetitive things, which make me annoyed rather than happy. But I keep doing it, while complaining all the time. This gym sucks! It's such a poor experience! I want it to be something else, why won't the owners cater to what I (ME ME ME!) like and prefer? Surely I know better! They don't know how to run a gym, even though they've been in business for 30 years and all their other previously opened gyms are very profitable and full of people that actually enjoy being in a gym, rather than outside.
Or:
I go to a cheese forums and start complaining that the cheese doesn't taste like bacon. And I personally am of an opinion that cheese should taste like bacon, because that's what I think! Wouldn't you then say to me "for god's sake, just go and buy some bacon man! This is cheese forums, not bacon..."?
84 hours in and I haven't even hit the slightest bump in regards to the game feeling like a grind, the same old thing over and over again, or any sort of burnout. There is so much that I still haven't explored or even touched upon. I did a couple trade missions at the start and then quickly switched to bounty hunter and have been doing that ever since. Trying to align myself with the Federation right now but haven't ruled out the Empire or Alliance. Only just hit RES site yesterday (have been using nav points and assassination missions until now) and can't wait to hit more. Also hit my first CZ but just looked, didn't participate yet. I have an engineer unlocked but haven't gone to them yet. I am aware of power play and how it works, but also haven't committed to it yet. Have no experience in exploration, mining, passengers, commodity trade, very little in shipping contracts. Only landed planet side a few times but have yet to deck out a ship with a rover bay and SRV.
There is just so much to do in this game just from a perspective of "oh, hey, that looks cool, I should check it out", not even trying to focus really hard on becoming a master in any one aspect. I just don't understand how in the hell anyone could be burn out at 10, 30, 50, 100, or 300 hours. I think this game caters to a certain sort of player, and for that player, this game is fantastic. I'm sorry it hasn't interested you in the same way.
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And what do we do with crap jobs boys and girls?
Quit.
There is just so much to do in this game just from a perspective of "oh, hey, that looks cool, I should check it out", not even trying to focus really hard on becoming a master in any one aspect. I just don't understand how in the hell anyone could be burn out at 10, 30, 50, 100, or 300 hours. I think this game caters to a certain sort of player, and for that player, this game is fantastic. I'm sorry it hasn't interested you in the same way.
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And what do we do with crap jobs boys and girls?
Quit.
The problem isn't the length of time or the number of tasks required to get to each goal. The problem is how tedious each of those tasks is, when given any amount of focus in that direction.
For example, if you want Grade 5 FSD upgrades, how many wakes would you need to scan before getting the correct randomly generated name to appear on your screen? How many wakes do you need to scan to get enough of the "right" ones to mitigate the chances of getting a poor roll of the dice?
Now, unless you are prone to activities that require lots of wake scanning (and I can't imagine there would be many who are), you are simply not going ever acquire those scans any other way than by going out of your way to do something both tedious and pointless. I question the sanity of the person who linked that particular activity to the reward of increased jump range.
The real issue isn't the time gates. It's that those time gates are deliberately tedious. If the time gates were linked to activities that were actually fun, the grind would disappear.
It kind of reminds me of teachers coming into school with hangovers, or those who realised too late that they hate being teachers and just assigning pointless busy work to occupy students so that they wouldn't have to actually teach them. I'm not suggesting that FD devs hate their jobs, but moreso that it seems they rushed out this content without giving it any proper thought.
There are other examples of this throughout the game, but that one sticks out as it's a recent experience. Something in the design process is failing between conception of an idea, to testing, to implementation. There really is no need for it. I mean, is there anyone who actually enjoys scanning wakes?
Anyone who answers in the affirmative will forever in my mind become Data in Star Trek in that scene where he gets off on pressing buttons (Can't remember the episode/movie).
For example, if you want Grade 5 FSD upgrades, how many wakes would you need to scan before getting the correct randomly generated name to appear on your screen? How many wakes do you need to scan to get enough of the "right" ones to mitigate the chances of getting a poor roll of the dice?
Now, unless you are prone to activities that require lots of wake scanning (and I can't imagine there would be many who are), you are simply not going ever acquire those scans any other way than by going out of your way to do something both tedious and pointless. I question the sanity of the person who linked that particular activity to the reward of increased jump range.
The real issue isn't the time gates. It's that those time gates are deliberately tedious. If the time gates were linked to activities that were actually fun, the grind would disappear.
It kind of reminds me of teachers coming into school with hangovers, or those who realised too late that they hate being teachers and just assigning pointless busy work to occupy students so that they wouldn't have to actually teach them. I'm not suggesting that FD devs hate their jobs, but moreso that it seems they rushed out this content without giving it any proper thought.
There are other examples of this throughout the game, but that one sticks out as it's a recent experience. Something in the design process is failing between conception of an idea, to testing, to implementation. There really is no need for it. I mean, is there anyone who actually enjoys scanning wakes?
Anyone who answers in the affirmative will forever in my mind become Data in Star Trek in that scene where he gets off on pressing buttons (Can't remember the episode/movie).
I am still trying to figure out what the time gates are. Can someone please explain. I can see lots of gameplay gates that may take time, but that is the same for every single game in existence.
rootsrat
Volunteer Moderator
I partially agree with you. Some of the tasks in game are tedious indeed. But that's inevitable in a game that uses procedural generation. That, plus the point I made about top-down development model (top, high level and basic layers which then are improved and expanded as the game progresses as a whole).
Look how missions or USS's evolved over time. Compare the AI from 1.0 and now. Outfitting.
I do wake scanning occasionally and accidentally, while doing missions or trading with my multipurpose Python. Nobody is forcing you to sit in front of a station and boringly scan every single wake.
That's my point this whole time - it is YOU that create the grind, not the game. The game gives you an opportunity to achieve things in many different ways, including the grind. And while I do agree the progress could be a little faster, I also appreciate that it is MY choice to achieve things slower, but in a less boring way and without the grind OR make the game into a grind to achieve my goals faster.
It's how the game was designed. Now you may like it or not, but it is what it is. Whether you think it's a bad or good game design is your opinion, nothing else.
Elite is a total sandbox - it does give you freedom of achieving your goals in variety of different ways and allows for many different playstyles. To me personally - it is it's biggest strength. The freedom of choice, blazing the trail in your own way.
Why do it in a way you actually find annoying, tedious and boring? And if you are not able to accept that and are forcing yourself to play Elite in order to achieve the proverbial "instant gratification" - perhaps this game is simply not for you and maybe it's time to try other games that will fulfil your sense of what is fun rather than boring. Which is also a possibility.
I know that this "advice" is very often misused, but that does not mean it doesn't apply at times.
Maybe you want Elite to be something else, that it's not? Maybe you want cheese to be bacon?
It's not "inevitable" in this instance. It's needlessly tedious. I have never needed a wake scanner for anything in this game other than this particular task. I have never needed to scan a wake for a mission. I could choose to go around with a scanner and complete missions by scanning escaping bounties (if they'd ever try to escape that is), but even then I'd simply be spreading the tedium around. If there were tasks that involved scanning wakes that were part of the normal run of the game, then I'd happily go about it the slow way. There isn't though.
At the current rate of development (which I actually have no problem with) I think it would be better if FD were mindful of creating grind just for the sake of it. There is necessary tedium in games like this. I think the whole supercruise mechanic is a good example of this. Short of just jumping from one well defended station to another, there needs to be a no man's land in between to create risk. But that doesn't mean that they should add tedium at will.
I have never needed a wake scanner for a mission. If there were missions that required it, I wouldn't be making this point.
Except it doesn't. The blueprint for FSD upgrades requires you to scan wakes. There is no other way of doing it. It would be different if you were given options, like giving the engineer wake scans or some other material. Or if there was a variety of ways of acquiring data. As it stands, you need to scan wakes... or prospect for hours for certain elements on planets. All of which is compounded by the fact that you can still get crappy rolls of the RNG dice, which could double, treble or quadruple the unnecessary tedium already present.
Who are you agreeing with? It can't be me, I clearly said that time was not the issue. How did you miss that, it was the entire point of my post. Here, read it again:
"The problem isn't the length of time"
The problem is tedium.
Did I say that it was anything other than my opinion? This is a game forum - a place where we post our opinions on aspects of the game.
Elite is loosely a sandbox. Last time I played in a sandbox, I was able to build a sandcastle. How does the sandbox analogy work in Elite? What can I build that's my own creation? Now, that's not to say that it's not a good game in many aspects, but as a sandbox it doesn't really stand up well against true sandbox games. KSP springs to mind... literally an infinite number of ways of achieving goals. I'm told EVE is similar in that regard, but that was a game that is truly "not for me", I can see how it sandboxes the hell out of Elite though. =)
Whether or not you can achieve your goals in a variety of different ways depends entirely on what those goals are. If your goal is Grade 5 FSD upgrades, then you are pretty much stuck with the blueprint that you're given. I'm not even getting started on the alcoholic who wants all that Lavian Brandy. Screw that guy.
Or (and this is a wild idea I know, considering you have seemingly made up my point in your own head and then argued against it, going hell for leather from the specific to the general at your own behest) I can do the needless grind to get the parts that I need to make other aspects of the game less tedious, and then come on the forum and give my opinion that there were needlessly tedious aspects to the part of the game that I just played.
What's actually misused is the whole "Blaze your own trail" blurb. The whole point of the Elite universe is that you are an insignificant part of a much larger whole. Sure, you can "Do your own thing", which doesn't quite have the same ring to it, but is much closer to the mark. The game is by design, not about blazing trails, unless we're going back to the root the phrase, which I think had something to do with scouts lighting torches along a path or something, but if that's the case they really should have been clearer with the context.
I have no problem with the "Do your own thing" type of game. I take it as it is. But I think they should rethink that phrase. It's become something of an ironic warcry for the entitled as it's one of the first things that becomes apparent to fresh players how inaccurate a phrase it actually is.
Sure, and maybe you want the forum to be an echo chamber where literally nobody has any criticism of the game at all?
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If your response to legitimate criticism of the game is "don't play it then, go away", sorry you have entered the realm of the fanboi. And you should probably consider that other people are entitled to have opinions that are different from your own.
I agree with this thread in how much Elite dangerous likes to waist our time in dumb repetitive and tedious gameplay. What I never understood is why so many white knights defend the poor game mechanics.
There are so many examples of simple yet fun things hundreds of other games have done. Wing Commander, Colony Wars, X-wing, Freelancer, starlancer the list goes on.
Yet we get RNG and this is supposed to be amazing gameplay worthy of praises?
There are so many examples of simple yet fun things hundreds of other games have done. Wing Commander, Colony Wars, X-wing, Freelancer, starlancer the list goes on.
Yet we get RNG and this is supposed to be amazing gameplay worthy of praises?
I bolded the Elite is a total sandbox, because that is False! Elite is a Sandbox that has to be played how the creators envisioned. You cannot play it your way, which would be great. I was optimistic that the engineers would allow you to do this, but, I was very much let down when I found out differently.
Elite is very grindy, yes. There are shortcuts like CG's for getting extra resources, but in general if you want big and shiny stuff be prepared to grind. Despite what the forum meme would have it as, wandering about seeing the sights and taking things easy doesn't reduce the grind - it just stretches it out over a longer period of time. For some this helps make the experience less aggravating, but it doesn't work for everyone.
Well, the only thing I can probably agree with is that the game 'is what it is'.
Definitely wouldn't say much has changed from what is highlighted above: USS's are still bad and poorly implemented RNG spawning things; Ai is still very poor being scripted with predictable triggers and ignoring player game rules; and outfitting IMO is much worse and terrible now after the big change in the GUI.Also would never use the word sandbox as the player has very little influence on the game world. Players can only 'do something' with their ship and other ships. They can't alter stations or planets by building or destructing, etc. They can't even do much customization to their ship other than pick from predefined selections of gear that's suitable for every ship. And everything constantly restarts or resets in instances: one can't leave any mark behind in this shared game world which is really all it is. Elite is a shared multiplayer game world with an odd mix of resetting random and/or procedurally generated objects which often cannot be seen by anyone else. In a sandbox I expect a lot more freedom and persistence, and most importantly having some ability to change the environment. These are things that can't be done in Elite.
This game is full of grind. Really the point is if you don't see it then that's great - be happy - because it's there everywhere.
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