The issue of ghost factions

[Van R Flyheight]

Ghost factions for people that might not know are player minor factions (PMF) that are no longer receiving support from the players that requested it. They are a frustration for other player groups because a PMF cannot be requested in a system that has another PMF present (home system or otherwise). I don't have figures of how many ghost factions actually exist but I'm sure people have examples on hand in their chosen area. The even more frustrating part is that some of these aren't just player groups that expanded for a bit and then got bored, some were actually born as orphans. The process is so painfully slow and with next to no contact from Frontier that once player groups submit a PMF request, some collapse before it is even introduced. Eventually all the decent systems will be taken up and players will be picking from scraps.

I know that when I submitted our groups request I had to give my email as a contact. That means our PMF is linked to me and at any point Frontier can ask me if I still want it. This could easily be done as an automatic process that sends me an email once a month or so, I click a button to acknowledge it and if I don't then the PMF is submitted for review. If that system is requested by a different group while mine is on the 'potentially inactive' list then it should be replaced.

I realise this brings in an ugly element of player politics (disgruntled ousted leaders or inactive leaders) but then these people should have taken the responsibility to hand over control to another player by updating the contact details with Frontier. If a PMF is owned by only one player that is away for some reason then, oh well you shouldn't have had a PMF in the first place (again, I know of a few PMFs that obviously lied about membership numbers when submitting their request).

So what do people think. Is it fair that ghost factions or single players hold onto territory that could be used by actual active groups of players?

I know the sodium content is high in this subject but I do look forward to what others in this community think?

 

[Conch]

but whats the differance between a player owned faction, and any other minor faction?

do the people in charge of those factions get a differant UI, more option to run that faction, or are both the minor factions and PMF the same thing, just with some fictive sprinkles on top of it?

 

[Jmanis]

I'll be honest... I don't see the problem.

20,000+ populated systems, 834 factions, and a bunch of those factions are in Colonia. How are you struggling to find a system which is not inhabited?

I'm also wondering how you'd define a group as "inactive". The new community guy from FD sent out an email to all the group leaders the other day asking for invites to the different group's Discord channel. My group doesn't use discord (or any public comms mechanism, for that matter). If I don't respond, does that make my group "inactive" ?

Part of my groups agenda was to secure a network of popular trade routes in the area to capitalise on known active traders in the area... and we've also got other groups that help us out, so we get a good deal of our +inf from non-groupmembers. Does the fact the inputs into our faction's influence are a good deal not-us make us inactive, even though the core group base is still "active"?

 

[Van R Flyheight]

but whats the differance between a player owned faction, and any other minor faction?

The problem with this bit was this: a PMF cannot be requested in a system that has another PMF present (home system or otherwise)

If I don't respond, does that make my group "inactive"

I never said anything about Discord channels, I said email. Also on the note of contact from frontier, I never got this email even though I gave it to them. Who is the new community manager?

 

[Dommarraa]

I have a feeling/expectation/hope that all this will come out in the wash in the Squadrons update.
Its a long wait I know, but I dont see how FD can do all the admin for player groups when its all done manually as currently.

 

[Urbanski101]

Is it an issue....yes it probably is but not a major one.

The only people it really affects is those waiting to have their PF placed in the game IMO....could be wrong on that of course.

If you implement player factions in this bizarre way then this kind of outcome is always a possibility. Should FDev review PF activity and remove inactive groups? Again probably but that's a big task and whatever they do would be open to much salt and woe.

Personally I thought PFs should never have been introduced and certainly not in the way it's been done...but that is a whole other discussion.

 

[Jmanis]

I never said anything about Discord channels, I said email. Also on the note of contact from frontier, I never got this email even though I gave it to them. Who is the new community manager?

Didn't suggest you did, just asked what you think should count as being active. Will admit I did miss your suggestion, but personally, no to the "click an email link" every month. As the leader of my group, I do go out of email/login contact for over a month at times, and I also get a lot of email... things slip through the radar that are more important than touching base with a game monthly. I'll also leave this here as an example of what can go wrong with "click something once a month" mechanics.

I have a feeling/expectation/hope that all this will come out in the wash in the Squadrons update.
Its a long wait I know, but I dont see how FD can do all the admin for player groups when its all done manually as currently.

I had exactly the same thoughts when they decided to run:
- User galnet submissions
- User submitted CGs; and
- You guessed it, manually entered player factions

Take a look at where two of those are at already.

 

[Marra Morgan]

An annual review and clean-up wouldn't be a bad idea, tbh.

 

[DNA-Decay]

Is this a thread complaining about The Ghost Legion?

I kinda liked those guys:
[video=youtube_share;X6_iSNy5xpI]https://youtu.be/X6_iSNy5xpI[/video]

And "monthly emails" ?
Please - this is the 21st century. Make it half hourly SnapChat pics.


Joking aside - two things.
One- I HATE the notion that a Player Faction is owned by one player.
Like when Viktore from Earth Defense Fleet calls it "My Fleet, My CMDRs, My Megaship" - nails down a chalkboard. There's SO many ways to organise a group. A hierarchy with one person at the top? Please. Go throw on a white polo shirt and a MAGA hat.

Two - yeah there's like five hundred odd Player Groups that haven't even got one expansion. So some sort of mechanism for a cull might be considered. Personally I favour toecutting but that's just me.

But if you want to be in a particular system and there's already a PMF - just get one within thirty light years and expand into the system you want.

An annual review and clean-up wouldn't be a bad idea, tbh.

- The Pirate takes a bath.

 

[Goose4291]

Allow PMFs and NPC factions to be 'killed' through a lot of work.

Problem solved. Home in time for tea and medals.

 

[Snowymonk]

This subject has been discussed on the Dangerous Groups sub forum before.
It is a difficult subject. What determines that a faction is no longer being actively supported is a thorny subject.
For example, is it no faction missions in the past day, week, month.... etc. Is it no ships passing through a system in the same period? Is it something else?

As was countered when this was discussed, there could be many valid reasons why a certain faction appears dormant for a period of time?
- The faction are just not very good
- The faction are busy supporting another faction in another part of the galaxy
- The faction are busy supporting a CG?
- The faction are busy an expedition (and therefore could be gone for weeks)

FDev have made a rule at the moment that no two PMFs can home in a system.
Whether that is right or wrong should be challenged. I am all up for a bit of healthy competition in my system if someone wants to join us.
Hell, I would probably even work with a second PMF to help them in the early days whilst they get to grips with how the BGS works.

The other rule that FDev work to is that no more than seven factions are present in any one system.
If this is a technical / loading constraint, I have no problem with this.

Again, as I proposed in the companion discussion thread on this subject, I don't see why the original 'seed' factions that were first populated into the system aren't sacrificed.
i.e. if you want to go into a particular system and it is already full, I don't see why a Player faction cannot replace the lowest placed NPC faction. After all, they are the lowest placed faction and also not previously requested for by a Player group.

Brett and the team do a wonderful job with what they can, it just appears that Player factions should be reviewed / updated as part of Beyond Q2 or Q3 quality of life improvements as the player community want it to do so much more than it is currently capable of doing.

 

[Rob At Work]

Ghosts are not real.

 

[Marra Morgan]

- The Pirate takes a bath.

!!!
You are lucky I like you!

 

[Deleted member 38366]

Well, I for example received a surprising EMail from Will Flanagan (Community Manager) today.

I responded immediately and notified him that I formally unregistered my Group in Jul 2017 already.

So if anything, some 38 Systems might be blocked from a new PMF placement indeed, just taking this as an example.
Can't do anything about it, I did my part by informing the Community Manager at that time.

I can imagine this might be a problem indeed, since there's never been any keepalive check on Groups (i.e. a Quarterly request for a minimal Status update to verify Groups are still active).

 

[Van R Flyheight]

Either from this thread or by coinkydink... I received that email just before lunch. Awesome that the new CM wants to engage with the community on that level (the horrors he will witness). Does fill me with confidence for 3304 and Beyond.

 

[Van R Flyheight]

Well, I for example received a surprising EMail from Will Flanagan (Community Manager) today.

I responded immediately and notified him that I formally unregistered my Group in Jul 2017 already.

So if anything, some 38 Systems might be blocked from a new PMF placement indeed, just taking this as an example.
Can't do anything about it, I did my part by informing the Community Manager at that time.

I can imagine this might be a problem indeed, since there's never been any keepalive check on Groups (i.e. a Quarterly request for a minimal Status update to verify Groups are still active).

Good on you though. If people know they are going to leave a group or the game full stop then they should make an effort to do something about it. If I ever need to step down for life reasons then I'll be sure to hand over everything to someone in my group (Though I'm sure most of them would be horrified at the prospect of dealing with the crazies out there, muchos crazies out there).

 

[Badben]

So as I see it, the only REAL problem is inactive PMF'S home system. As far as I know, there's no way to get a PMF out of their home system, however, any system they've expanded into, they should be able to be kicked out of with enough work. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is possible to make a minor faction retreat is it not? I have to say, I don't exactly know how, but I imagine if they have low enough influence it happens. The only system you can probably never get them out of is their original home system, because thy can't be deleted from the game.

 

[damon8r351]

Sometimes I wonder about the urge to put a PMF into the game, what the motivation is. If you're trying to make a mark on the galaxy, a PMF is a deliberate vulnerability you've introduced to your operations. An anchor point you have to defend along with whatever else you're doing

 

[RamirezKurita]

There's always plenty of other systems that could be used as a home base, there won't be a PMF in every single inhabited system. Even if one has expanded into a system that you really want, then you could just force them to retreat out of the system by supporting out all the other factions then request a faction to be made there.

Going even further, the only thing stopping you from simply favouring a normal minor power for RP reasons except your own pride. Mechanically, there's no difference between PMFs and regular minor factions anyway, literally the only special contact between a player group and their PMF is at the moment of the PMF's creation - beyond that point they are two completely separate and independent entities.

 

[Martian Successor]

Ghosts are not real.

Yes we are