The New AI is Too Good! I'm back in an Cobra After Loosing Python 3 Times in 3 Days!

[Jypson]

Ahaha, noticed the butt wriggling too. Thought it was a lil joke Sarah put in, now that you mention it, it makes sense to me that they can't decide what to do.

Exactly, the Vulture can correct-course so quickly, the poor AI can't figure out which way to go! I notice the indecision mostly with the Clipper and Dropship. The Anaconda only wants to joust, so they don't seem to get stuck in that loop. The only other ship that gets crazy is the Viper, I hate those buggers! Sharp turn, then BOOST! I catch up and apply pressure, they pitch hard, then BOOST! Then their drives fail and coast away from the battlefield at 400m/s

 

[Rubbernuke]

Exactly, the Vulture can correct-course so quickly, the poor AI can't figure out which way to go! I notice the indecision mostly with the Clipper and Dropship. The Anaconda only wants to joust, so they don't seem to get stuck in that loop. The only other ship that gets crazy is the Viper, I hate those buggers! Sharp turn, then BOOST! I catch up and apply pressure, they pitch hard, then BOOST! Then their drives fail and coast away from the battlefield at 400m/s

It feels good when Vipers go pop. Really good.

 

[Shaamaan]

What *could* be done is for the game to take into account a player's kill/death ratio, or more specifically NPC kill / NPC death ratio, when spawning NPCs into a player's instance - players who get killed less by NPCs could meet higher ranked NPC opponents....

So, you're encouraging people to buy the occasional Sidewinder purely to get it blown up by NPCs?

This reminds me of the old option in Unreal Tournament (the original one - I don't know if the newer ones had this option as well) where you could have bots change their difficulty on the fly depending on how well the player(s) did. Except, this is a great option for an arena-style game. It might be a great option for the upcoming CQC (should it also get filled with AI). But for a sandbox game? No, it's arbitrary and a bit nonsensical.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So, you're encouraging people to buy the occasional Sidewinder purely to get it blown up by NPCs?

.... it would only encourage players who want to reduce how dangerous NPC encounters are for them.

 

[Faybs]

So, you're encouraging people to buy the occasional Sidewinder purely to get it blown up by NPCs?

This reminds me of the old option in Unreal Tournament (the original one - I don't know if the newer ones had this option as well) where you could have bots change their difficulty on the fly depending on how well the player(s) did. Except, this is a great option for an arena-style game. It might be a great option for the upcoming CQC (should it also get filled with AI). But for a sandbox game? No, it's arbitrary and a bit nonsensical.

On Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 (great coop games btw) there is something called the AI director that keeps tabs on how the players are doing moment by moment and adjusts game difficulty on the fly. It's great because if you're having a bad day the zombies will go easy on you, but if you're on top of your game there will be more of them and you'll get more specials.

 

[5thNovember]

I very much doubt that Frontier will allow the NPCs to be made so difficult that it risks making players not enjoy the game - there's no chance of selling DLC or ship skins to players who have left.

If AI were to get too good then we might see players preferentially selecting other players in the hope that they get an easy target, bearing in mind the fact that 50% of all players are below median skill level.

What *could* be done is for the game to take into account a player's kill/death ratio, or more specifically NPC kill / NPC death ratio, when spawning NPCs into a player's instance - players who get killed less by NPCs could meet higher ranked NPC opponents....

Thats not a terrible suggestion either. I'd love it if a higher % of my targets were highly ranked

 

[Zhang]

...
The only other ship that gets crazy is the Viper, I hate those buggers! Sharp turn, then BOOST! I catch up and apply pressure, they pitch hard, then BOOST! Then their drives fail and coast away from the battlefield at 400m/s

LMAO! That too! I hate those buggers too. Happened to me one time too often and I was like OH NO YOU DON'T full pips to ENG and I boosted after im, kept right up closed in after what seemed like an eternity then full power to WEP and let loose, killed im.

Only to get a MURDER charge?!

 

[Shaamaan]

On Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 (great coop games btw) there is something called the AI director that keeps tabs on how the players are doing moment by moment and adjusts game difficulty on the fly. It's great because if you're having a bad day the zombies will go easy on you, but if you're on top of your game there will be more of them and you'll get more specials.

As long as the algorithm doesn't count "deaths", but "disengages" or some other, more "soft" metric. Are you doing good if you can't kill anything and keep running away with your life (not to even mention if you're getting blown up all the time)? Not so much, no. So the K/D suggestion is a bit weak in this case. This is still open to abuse* however, so I'm not sure this kind of approach is sensible.

* - an algorithm based on multiple soft metrics might be more difficult to fool than one based sorely on a single, hard value like "K/D"... so how easy it would be to abuse such a mechanic would rely on the quality of said metrics!

 

[ledpup]

Are there still some major bugs in the AI? I was attacking a viper that was a master I think (not a low rank in any event) and it seemed to be refusing to attack me. It was a decidedly boring encounter. It would turn towards and not fire. I doubt I was avoiding its reticle completely. It was avoiding me okay, nothing great but sufficient, it just wasn't really bothering to attack. What's up with that?

 

[Faybs]

As long as the algorithm doesn't count "deaths", but "disengages" or some other, more "soft" metric. Are you doing good if you can't kill anything and keep running away with your life (not to even mention if you're getting blown up all the time)? Not so much, no. So the K/D suggestion is a bit weak in this case.

Yep. The combat AI is already keeping track of how often you're hitting the other ship and how often it's hitting you, so it could adjust its behavior in real time from a base that depends on the AI's elite ranking. For example, a Master AI will always be more dangerous than a Competent, but it will "go easy" on you (up to a point) if it notices that you're hardly ever hitting it and it's constantly peppering you, and use all its tricks if the opposite happens.

 

[[VR] Deggial]

I highly welcome the increased AI capabilitiey and just want to encourage Sarah:
Give us the best (worst?) you can!
Make 'deadly' and 'elite' AIs as intimidating as possible, create swarms of lower-leveled eagles flocking together and tear the unalert pilot to tatters!

However, there has to be a certain kind of balance - and this balance is not in Sarah's hands, but needs the effort of her FD colleagues!
- There has to be a noticeable difference in system security level. Players with lower skills and/or less sophisticated ships have to have the possibility to stay in less dangerous regions of the universe. Here, less interdictions and generally less high-level opponents should make it possible for these pilotes to enjoy the game! The system security level has to be way more visible than it is currently, to make it easier to chose your own desired "difficulty level", though!
- The increased difficulty level has to be reflected in the possible gain. Missions have to reflect the target's danger-level in the payout more than currently (no more 'deadly' Anacondas for 50.000 cr.!). Trading in low-security systems have to yield way more than trading in high-sec systems. (For bounty-hunting this is already true, as high leveled wanted AIs usually have a way higher bounty on their heads.).
- The ability to hire your own NPC-wing was mentioned earlier, too. This would definitely be a desirable game feature and help to balance an increased AI capability. However, this might make encounters possibly too easy again and has to be handled with great care!

 

[Jypson]

LMAO! That too! I hate those buggers too. Happened to me one time too often and I was like OH NO YOU DON'T full pips to ENG and I boosted after im, kept right up closed in after what seemed like an eternity then full power to WEP and let loose, killed im.

Only to get a MURDER charge?!

OMG, wow, that's the real cherry on top! At least you didn't have to do the 17km flight of shame back to the battlefield after chasing a stupid 3k CR Viper to death

 

[Shaamaan]

BTW, are there any plans on updating the AI's outside of combat? Like how they love to stop in front of your guns and scan you? Or how they'll keep shooting even if you drop cargo? How about some haggling mechanics with NPCs pirates for traders? Anything on this front? I keep saying - most new players wouldn't notice that the AI is easy in combat but they'll notice the silly AI's actions outside of combat. From a global "ooh, this AI looks stupid" standpoint THIS is a problem.

And for the love of... having all NPCs wing up is such a cheap mechanic of upping the difficulty. Give me a co-pilot and I'll manage without issues. Or just make them wing up less often. SOMETHING. I'd gladly pit my Python against an Elite Anaconda, but if said Anaconda summons two Vultures out of nowhere then this is a lost cause.

 

[Faybs]

Are there still some major bugs in the AI? I was attacking a viper that was a master I think (not a low rank in any event) and it seemed to be refusing to attack me. It was a decidedly boring encounter. It would turn towards and not fire. I doubt I was avoiding its reticle completely. It was avoiding me okay, nothing great but sufficient, it just wasn't really bothering to attack. What's up with that?

I noticed that too the other day. I wanted to try out an all-fixed MC build on my Scout and found an Elite viper, and after 15 minutes of furious ducking and weaving I had to break off because I just could not get through his shields and I was out of ammo. If he'd chosen to attack as opposed to running all the time I'd probably have been in a lot of trouble. Fun fight though.

 

[Joel Elks]

Before this update I was able to take an Anaconda with my Cobra and I'm barely average in dogfighting. I like the new AI, challenging!

When the NPC asks in chat "How can this be possible" I scream at my screen "YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING AT ME, THAT'S HOW"

 

[Faybs]

How about some haggling mechanics with NPCs pirates for traders?

So much this. I'd love to be able to have some primitive form of communication with AIs (even if it's a simple agree/disagree/snark menu system like Mass Effect). We could negotiate with pirates, demand cargo from NPCs, talk faction aligned NPCs out of attacking, etc etc. It would add so much more to the game.

 

[Chaodiurn]

Try a FDL if you can't handle the Python against them. I'm flying around and shredding every NPC I see with a C4 PA and fixed multicannons. They do a pretty good job keeping out of your fire-line and switiching flight direction randomly to avoid being hit. It is really challanging and fun. Can't see how that would be something bad. Also, I personally didn't die in a Python yet.

 

[Sarah Jane Avory]

Are there still some major bugs in the AI? I was attacking a viper that was a master I think (not a low rank in any event) and it seemed to be refusing to attack me. It was a decidedly boring encounter. It would turn towards and not fire. I doubt I was avoiding its reticle completely. It was avoiding me okay, nothing great but sufficient, it just wasn't really bothering to attack. What's up with that?

Yes, there is a bug where high-ranked ships can have no pips to WEP and when they run out, they stop firing. It's a bit intermittent, but I've found the cause.

 

[ToniB]

well learn to fight i guess instead of trading in shieldless cargo transporters without weapons...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

To become Elite as an NPC you have'd to be exemplary at staying alive.

We need John Travolta then!