The new exploration system

[gooddoc]

Well that's not my method of Exploration Mengy.

I always scan the main Star even if I don't scan anything else.

In fact I'll scan each Star in the system unless I'm wanting to move quick & the other Stars are 100's of LS's away.

I will scoop & honk after a jump in, then move away from the Star while looking in the system map, then stop turn & scan the Star.

Iv decided by then how much of the system I'm gonna scan.

 

[Mengy]

Well that's not my method of Exploration Mengy.

I always scan the main Star even if I don't scan anything else.

In fact I'll scan each Star in the system unless I'm wanting to move quick & the other Stars are 100's of LS's away.

I will scoop & honk after a jump in, then move away from the Star while looking in the system map, then stop turn & scan the Star.

Iv decided by then how much of the system I'm gonna scan.

Sure, nothing wrong with that at all, it just means you aren't a "traveler explorer".

For many explorers the new 3.3 mechanics will be awesome, myself included most likely. It's the traveling explorers who will (might?) find it punishing.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I would disagree there Max.

When we were first shown the Planet scanning months ago, the grahics shown looked good & players were expecting to have this added to the current method. There was no mention of FD dropping the current instahonk & scanning Planets from the main Star.

So I was only expecting the Planetgolf addition for finding POI's.

I didn't know what to expect until I say the Focus Feedback. Once we got that it was obvious. Never assume anything.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Nope, most traveler explorers don't bother scanning the main star unless they break routine to do so.

The standard traveler explorer routine is this:

1. Jump in, immediately throttle up and fuel scoop along the star edge while honking.
2. After the honk but while still fuel scooping, engage the FSD.
3. Quickly glance at the Sys Map while the FSD charges.
a) If system looks interesting, cancel FSD and explore.
b) If system is not interesting, then close Sys Map and align the ship towards next jump point. FSD should be charged by now.

This routine allows for 45~55 sec jumps depending on ship and pilot skill. It allows for optimum travel speed while still enabling exploration along the way, the system map is what presents the quick info which makes this possible. The 3.3 mechanics will slow this down by a factor of half most likely, unless the FSS can be accessed while the FSD is charging and without zeroing the throttle. If the traveling explorer wants to see every system map then it will slow things down by a lot more than half.

Hmmm seems like there may not be a standard traveller explorer. Are you sure that way is as popular as you think it is.

Max, you do a more laid back traveling exploration style, so the new mechanics probably won't slow you down nearly as much. This is probably how traveling exploration will be done in 3.3, which I estimate will be about half as fast as today's procedure.

I would say that my method isn't laid back. I would think it is probably the norm. Hence the reason why so many seem to happy with it. I would say the the method you discribed is extreme high speed. If I can keep up with expeditions with my limited play time and explore systems on the way, I'm sure wit will be fine for you.

Once the new mechanics are in and bedded in, I'm sure all of this will be forgotten about, as long as the mechanic is good fun.

For finding POI's yeah the probes will be MUCH faster than eyeballing, of course. I was talking about 100% scanning a system though, that is what will be slower in 3.3. In 3.2 you only need to honk and then fly up to every body and detail scan it, which simply means you fly close to it and wait for the wheel timer to spin for about 20s. In 3.3 to 100% a system you need to honk, do the FSS minigame, and STILL fly up close to every body but now instead of waiting for the wheel to spin you will need to do the probe golf game, which will take longer than the 20 seconds the current wheel timer does. So, the net effect will be that 100%ing a system in 3.3 will take longer than it does in 3.2, due to the new layer of First Mapped with the probe minigame being added.

Ahh. You are talking about the completionist. Yep it will be longer if they want to probe everything, but that is their choice.

 

[Mengy]

I would say that my method isn't laid back. I would think it is probably the norm. Hence the reason why so many seem to happy with it. I would say the the method you discribed is extreme high speed. If I can keep up with expeditions with my limited play time and explore systems on the way, I'm sure wit will be fine for you.

I'm not really a true "traveler explorer", though I do use the style from time to time when I'm trying to get somewhere fast. I'll adapt to whatever the new mechanics require in 3.3 as I think they look great for 85% of my play style. It's that 15% where I want to move fast where I'll feel it. Sadly, for people who play the traveler style all the time update 3.3 will be much more controversial.

Personally I'll just be happy being able to find geysers and such on large planets finally!

 

[MattG]

I am fine for the old version to stay in, but you cant mix and match. If you have the old version, that means no probes and you need to supercruise to each planet to do a DSS and you will have to fly around in the hope that you drop on to a USS in your area or use a Nav Beacon if there is one. No orrery either, that stays with the new version.

From what I’ve seen and understand of the new mechanics, I’d absolutely accept this compromise. Maybe beta will change my mind, but I’m not holding my breath.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I'm not really a true "traveler explorer", though I do use the style from time to time when I'm trying to get somewhere fast. I'll adapt to whatever the new mechanics require in 3.3 as I think they look great for 85% of my play style. It's that 15% where I want to move fast where I'll feel it. Sadly, for people who play the traveler style all the time update 3.3 will be much more controversial.

Personally I'll just be happy being able to find geysers and such on large planets finally!

I am in the same boat as you except I use my slower travel style exploration when I am in a rush. And if I am really pushed I just wouldn't do anything. Just jump and scoop.

It's not just the geysers though, it's all the other stuff that has been seeded among the galaxy.

 

[Faded Glory]

I am fine for the old version to stay in, but you cant mix and match. If you have the old version, that means no probes and you need to supercruise to each planet to do a DSS and you will have to fly around in the hope that you drop on to a USS in your area or use a Nav Beacon if there is one. No orrery either, that stays with the new version.

All I can say is good luck looking for your USS's for your engineering.

Huh? Mix and match?

The new system, the FSS, is a replacement for having to SC to a body (passive, some might say boring game-play) and having to do a passive scan. Those are the two things it does differently. It still provides a low level overview of a system, just in a different format.

It sounds to me like you are suggesting that the current low level overview is too easy (it's yet to be determined just how difficult the new one will be to read), and that seems to be why you are suggesting that a player who prefers a graphical (map) overview versus a supposedly scientific one should be somehow punished by being forced to keep the passive game-play, which is in fact what the devs are replacing with the FSS.

No reason at all why players shouldn't have a choice of how the low level overview is presented and then have them get on with actually exploring the content using the new active mechanics other than a dogmatic belief that the two are incompatible. There are plenty of ways this could be done without trivializing the process of actively scanning.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Huh? Mix and match?

The new system, the FSS, is a replacement for having to SC to a body (passive, some might say boring game-play) and having to do a passive scan. Those are the two things it does differently. It still provides a low level overview of a system, just in a different format.

It sounds to me like you are suggesting that the current low level overview is too easy (it's yet to be determined just how difficult the new one will be to read), and that seems to be why you are suggesting that a player who prefers a graphical (map) overview versus a supposedly scientific one should be somehow punished by being forced to keep the passive game-play, which is in fact what the devs are replacing with the FSS.

No reason at all why players shouldn't have a choice of how the low level overview is presented and then have them get on with actually exploring the content using the new active mechanics other than a dogmatic belief that the two are incompatible. There are plenty of ways this could be done without trivializing the process of actively scanning.

Nope. The new FSS has you search out the planets and moons in the scanner. You know gameplay. None of The planets are pinpointed, just a general area which you can see via there gravity.

The old way was gives you a lot without doing anything. They are not compatible with each other.

As to punishment. No not at all. You have two versions. Choose whichever one you want for what's best for your style of travel. Or is it that you want the best of both worlds. Sorry but no. You either have the old and all of the old and none the new or you go for the new which has it all. You choose and no mix and match.

That's is the only compromise I would be happy with or there are grey blobs for the planets in the galaxy map which are not highlightable and none of it shows on the orrery and no other information. And even that compromise is pushing it for me.

 

[Faded Glory]

There are plenty of ways this could be done without trivializing the process of actively scanning.

That's is the only compromise so would be happy with or there are grey blobs for the planets in the galaxy map which are not highlightable and none of it shows on the orrery and no other information. And even that compromise is pushing it for me.

See, it's possible to come to a potential compromise if you don't make too many assumptions.

Did I say anything about keeping the system map overview exactly the same? The non targetable map and the grey or wireframe planets have all been suggested numerous times (by me and others), and I'd go further and say (again) that any distance information be removed - but that's still a graphical representation which some players prefer.

You'd still have to find and scan the bodies using the new system exclusively. That's the intention of the devs, to remove the need to SC to a body just to scan it.

If that compromise is too much for you, I'm not sure I see why. Exploration isn't a competition, it's about having a fun and engaging time exploring the stellar forge generated galaxy, having options about how you view that galaxy while you explore it are surely a good thing. Few people have suggested that the new mechanics aren't an improvement over the old, and even fewer that I have seen want an 'I win' view where you for example target a potential ELW to see whether it's HUD symbol is indeed an ELW not a WW or HMC world.

For those who think that the current system enables cherry picking (is too easy), well, every indication is that the new system will still allow for that, so that, IMHO is no reason to not enable a visual representation of a system as a simple choice. No one would be obliged to use it, and since it would offer no advantage (if that's what people are worried about), I'm not sure I see a downside.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Nope, most traveler explorers don't bother scanning the main star unless they break routine to do so.

The standard traveler explorer routine is this:

1. Jump in, immediately throttle up and fuel scoop along the star edge while honking.
2. After the honk but while still fuel scooping, engage the FSD.
3. Quickly glance at the Sys Map while the FSD charges.
a) If system looks interesting, cancel FSD and explore.
b) If system is not interesting, then close Sys Map and align the ship towards next jump point. FSD should be charged by now.

Yep. This is exploration for me. Stopping to line up with and scan the star would already add a bunch of time for something that has no tangible reward to me. Hence why having to do it to even see the data on all the bodies in the system? Just unnecessary grind for no reward in 99% of systems.

This routine allows for 45~55 sec jumps depending on ship and pilot skill. It allows for optimum travel speed while still enabling exploration along the way, the system map is what presents the quick info which makes this possible. The 3.3 mechanics will slow this down by a factor of half most likely, unless the FSS can be accessed while the FSD is charging and without zeroing the throttle. If the traveling explorer wants to see every system map then it will slow things down by a lot more than half.

WAY more. It involves a bunch of additional steps beyond just looking for the important stuff in order to make the information that tells you if anything like that is there visible.

For finding POI's yeah the probes will be MUCH faster than eyeballing, of course.

And people really need to understand that those of us criticising the new system have absolutely no problem making this faster, since right now there's a reason almost nobody looks for this stuff, since it's just not worth it to most people. We have lives. ED's not a game like Destiny where you need to grind enough PoIs to get your level up. If they can make the game fun for the people who want to dig all of that up, that's a commendable goal. We just don't want to lose the ability to do the things which we play the game for in the process.

100% scanning a system though, that is what will be slower in 3.3. In 3.2 you only need to honk and then fly up to every body and detail scan it, which simply means you fly close to it and wait for the wheel timer to spin for about 20s. In 3.3 to 100% a system you need to honk, do the FSS minigame, and STILL fly up close to every body but now instead of waiting for the wheel to spin you will need to do the probe golf game, which will take longer than the 20 seconds the current wheel timer does. So, the net effect will be that 100%ing a system in 3.3 will take longer than it does in 3.2, due to the new layer of First Mapped with the probe minigame being added.

Yeah, it's giving people who are looking for the detailed info on every last planet a harder job, while making the act of performing a cursory scan and tag of every body in the system faster.

For those who think that the current system enables cherry picking (is too easy), well, every indication is that the new system will still allow for that, so that, IMHO is no reason to not enable a visual representation of a system as a simple choice. No one would be obliged to use it, and since it would offer no advantage (if that's what people are worried about), I'm not sure I see a downside.

Yep. The info we want left in is irrelevant to the new system insofar as we've been made aware of the new mechanics.

I wonder if the folks clinging to their old ADS would stick it out if it meant not having access to any of the other aspects of the changes?

Sure. The new system adds nothing of use or interest to me. Just grind.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

See, it's possible to come to a potential compromise if you don't make too many assumptions.

Did I say anything about keeping the system map overview exactly the same? The non targetable map and the grey or wireframe planets have all been suggested numerous times (by me and others), and I'd go further and say (again) that any distance information be removed - but that's still a graphical representation which some players prefer.

You'd still have to find and scan the bodies using the new system exclusively. That's the intention of the devs, to remove the need to SC to a body just to scan it.

If that compromise is too much for you, I'm not sure I see why. Exploration isn't a competition, it's about having a fun and engaging time exploring the stellar forge generated galaxy, having options about how you view that galaxy while you explore it are surely a good thing. Few people have suggested that the new mechanics aren't an improvement over the old, and even fewer that I have seen want an 'I win' view where you for example target a potential ELW to see whether it's HUD symbol is indeed an ELW not a WW or HMC world.

For those who think that the current system enables cherry picking (is too easy), well, every indication is that the new system will still allow for that, so that, IMHO is no reason to not enable a visual representation of a system as a simple choice. No one would be obliged to use it, and since it would offer no advantage (if that's what people are worried about), I'm not sure I see a downside.

I have even suggested that myself a long time ago.

 

[Burke]

Totally agree. +1

And in any case, why should'nt we have different ways of scanning? Each to their own.

If the player doesn't want the additional information they should not have to spend the additional time.

Im looking at this and thinking....

Ok we have different kinds of ships. Different manufacturers, different styles. Why dont we have modules from different manufacturers? (like battletech) That way one brand of scanner may not work exactly the same as another and may not even give the same information. Instantly there is huge leeway to create real differences in peoples play styles and you dont even have to bring guardiens or ancients or whatever else into it.

 

[Chrystoph]

Yep, exactly, and feedback we write should all include those. My point is more that detailed feedback is better served after the beta, and not at this time; Frontier will be paying attention to it then, they aren't now.

Betas are for bug fix, not for design.

Frontier didn't follow any of the normal processes for software development, either industry standard or their own for this chapter. They should have had a dialogue started months ago, but they actually came out and said they were not going to.

Beta testing is for finding problems in the software prior to release because you have already committed to that path, not for deciding what path to take.

The lack of communication seems to be because, while the current method isn't ideal, the new one is Cool but doesn't address the old one's actual benefits.

Specifically, it moves the evaluation point of whether a system is worth additional time investment from after the honk to after evaluating all of the bodies. You can no longer just look at the system map to see that the system is a Class M and a handful of beige potatoes that aren't even landable, meaning it is time to move on.

 

[Cdr Voorheez]

I will make an informed judgment during and after Beta. Until then all other speculation and catastrophizing achieves squat. Literally squat.

 

[Sunyavadin]

Betas are for bug fix, not for design.
Beta testing is for finding problems in the software prior to release because you have already committed to that path, not for deciding what path to take.

Yep. The beta is already after they've decided to implement it.
You fix bugs, you don't change the course of a release based on a beta's feedback (hell, if you're microsoft and it's a win10 release you don't even do it when the testers consistently report a catastrophic filesystem destroying bug cough cough)

When we began this feedback with a Beta already lined up, the hope was to give feedback before it was at the point of definitely going live, and with the hope of potentially raising the case for restoring some kind of compromise in a later update.

 

[BDelacroix]

I'm not a troll and I like it. I need more buttons, though.

 

[iain666]

I think I'll get used to it. I might even grow to like it.

+:
A system full of rocky and icy meh is still obvious. The existence of valuable planets is still there and once I get my eye in and don't need to scroll up and down the frequencies to see the labels and just know what's what that'll be quicker. The equivalent of a live DSS of everything is already quicker, and will get faster with practice. The honk giving me the DSS on all the main column stars is nice.

-:
Some things where the interest lay in their configuration will take a bit longer to spot. Not being able to access the FSS without zeroing throttle is a pain - if I want to use it at full chat then that's my look out, less of the nannying FDev! Not being able to do the FSS scan through the star makes sense but is a bitter pill to swallow.

ETA: the 'shared knowledge' thing, or whatever they're calling it where you get some sysmap if other people have been there - you get black circles and limited sysmap info for things you've not scanned but you do, in beta at least, get a full scan journal so all information is available in EDD and other 3rd party tools.

 

[Stewart_]

The probe mechanism is good, although easy - there is very little skill.

im worried about the discovery of planets: at the moment it’s a novelty, but I could see it getting tedious.

I do like the fact I don’t have to travel far to get planetary data -that’s very welcome.

 

[Mengy]

My condensed feelings are surprisingly positive. I like all the changes so far after a few hours with it. I do have some problems with some of it and I don't like how traveling exploration got crushed to death, but personally I think it's pretty good.