The "No Game" comments

[Cmdr Snuffler]

There is also the fact that not much has changed...Doom and Doom II followed those same runs...and all Battlefield 4 is, is Doom II re-skinned 20 years later. Few minor tweaks and game mechanics here and there and a few newer weapons...but essentially it's the same thing.
Same with things like StarCraft 2...that's just Warcraft 1 and 2, again almost 20 years old, but with different models and map graphics. Not much difference at all.
The thing with ED is that with a DK2 I AM a space pilot and the universe is my oyster.
'nuff said.

 

[nexxo]

This is patently untrue. One of the biggest games this generation is Minecraft, which has no story to speak of and relies ENTIRELY on your imagination to make content. Except unlike Elite, you can actually express that imagination. Another is League of Legends or Dota 2, which have no real story and are extremely difficult and complex games to master. Eve Online puts you at the center of exactly nothing, and is entirely player-driven, from the market to the sectors, the game doesn't hold your hand and is a thousand times more hardcore than Elite, where you can lose everything you have, cargo equivalent to millions of real dollars.

Barring this, did anyone need to come and tell you, the first time you played Elite, why it was "so great"? No, it was great because it was great. Elite Dangerous is not amazing to me, because unlike the original, it breaks no new ground, has no content of any value.

"Use your imagination!"

Okay!

"Wow, look at that planet! Let me imagine what's on it, because there's no planetary landing yet!"

"Wow, my friend is stranded! Let me imagine how cool it would be if I could play with him properly in open play, and then let me imagine how cool it would be if there was a functioning system to help other players!"

"Wow, a capital ship! Let me imagine how cool it would be if it could actually be destroyed!"

"Wow, 400 billion star systems! Let me imagine how cool it would be if there was actually any significantly different content within them!"

"Wow, Elite Dangerous, let me imagine how cool it would be if they had actually finished developing the game instead of rushing it to meet the 30th anniversary and calling it 1.0!"

Your observations are valid, but remember that it took Eve Online quote a few years to get where it is now. It just started building at the other end: got the social interaction and crafting bit in place first, while having only a very basic flight model (for good technical reasons, btw). Elite Dangerous focused on the flight model and map first. Now it needs to build on its social interaction element and consider how far it wants to go with trading and crafting.

 

[babelfisch]

In an age when minecraft and its clones flourish like there's no tomorrow, I don't see your point OP, ED is not really bringing anything new that it already didn't 20 years ago. The only really new part is the size of the playground, but that's a scalability issue.

PS: people aren't asking for a story, they're asking for proper interactivity with the universe, and that includes proper feedback.

There is no problem with feedback or constructive criticism, but all those posts how unfair, broken and wrong this game is are just getting old. Some people consider it unfair that security vessels shoot back if you attack them. Others don't like that you can't fly without fuel. We should get rid of super cruise because its boring and docking to a station is just a waste if time. Bounties shouldn't apply for the player and every trade run should bring you a fortune.

All this threads are full of rants and accusations, and unnecessary, because most of the time someone just misunderstood a game mechanic.

I'm not saying this game is perfect. Actually it isn't at all. There are some bugs, there is bad game design and missing content.

 

[Shoklar]

They are largely right when they say "No Game". As an 80's player, yes you did need an 'imagination' because the technology was so lacking back then when it came to computer games. Today, things have really moved forward and many eye candy effects and abilities that match that of simulated real life. Elite has jumped thirty years forward and has been given a huge upgrade to it's chassis. But, that is where it ended for now. We have but a platform or a shell that the rest of the future content and vision can be hatched from. This will take time to fill that shallow void.

It's not players 'imagination' at fault when there is no tools for wings or the co-op content that goes with it. Other than warzones or other fixed zones it is rather limited, and can get pretty boring fast. Interdictions broke up the monotony while trading or traveling, but these too have been nerfed to hell to suite the passive lambs who want farmville in space. I've supported the game since the beginning and still do, but even I can't currently bring myself to play the game for over four days now due to it being so damn easy. Get titles handed on a plate for a simple delivery mission, rather than a rewarding lengthy process that actually felt like you'd 'earned' it. Now it's "Ah, got it, next!" I mean come on, it means nothing as do the permits. I went to all the ones I currently have and there is still so little to them areas or what to do there, like any other system, they are the same. They 'offer' nothing new that I seen, other than access to the system for possible future content.

So, for now, I'm playing games I don't actually find mind numbingly boring and consider severely dumbed down.

Shok.

 

[shrinkshooter]

I do need to agree with the "lacking in content" camp.

Now, yes, I've played hundreds of hours of this game and still continue to do so, because so far I've managed to give myself goals to avoid getting bored. But when people critique the game as "an ocean as deep as a puddle," I have to agree, and the fact that it's such a widespread opinion (read: not some fringe opinion held by a handful, and a very common point mentioned by many new players across several gaming forums) needs to give you some pause and consider the validity of their statement, rather than simply being dismissive.

Again, I'm still racking up my hours in this game, and I fully understand Elite is something that will still be built up. However, my fun is slowly dwindling (much slower than many new players, thankfully), and it's easy to see why. I applaud FD and DB for their efforts here, because I can only imagine the monumental amount of work it took to establish what we already have and to fix all the bugs that still pop up to this day. However, it still seems as a wide, structurally sound foundation -- as great as it is -- with only a thin layer of content, and when a bunch of people bring that up, it's not something to be scoffed at.

 

[Jeroll3d]

I posted this on one of the Facebook groups I'm a member of in response to a few people saying that there was no 'Game' in Elite and that there was nothing to keep them playing.

It prompted quite a discussion, with no flaming, no name calling, no tempers getting heated... just a nice open discussion on the current games market and what Elite is. I thought I would re-post it here...

========================================​

Picture this... I don't know if you are old enough to remember or if you were alive
then, but back in the 1980s computer games all followed (pretty much) the same structure...

You had three lives, and perhaps a power-up, a bomb or a bonus item of some sort. You could get a bonus life/bomb/item at various points through the game. You played till you lost your lives and that was it.

Then along came Elite, which through away the rule book and tried to do something different. And it did. And without Elite breaking the rules back then you probably wouldn't have games like GTA, Eve, Warcraft, etc.,

Now, 30yrs later it is trying to break the mold again by throwing away the new 'rule book' for online gaming. Look at the games that are out there... What do you see?

You see a selection of game that all appear to be different from each other, but have a closer look... Nearly all of them follow the same pattern (or rules).
1 - Start game with big introduction placing you in the middle of a big event.
2 - Make the player the most important character in the event.
3 - Give player a walkthough and then set stages for them to complete
4 - At the end of each stage give the player a bonus
5 - At the end of a set of stages, give them a boss fight and a bonus
6 - Repeat till end of story.

Now, I enjoy some of these games myself, play a lot of them. But you are basically following the same process through each game.

Now here comes Elite...
1 - It places you in a live galaxy.
2 - You aren't the most important person in the game.
3 - It allows you to find your own way.
4 - They provide a set of events which you can decide to interact with 'if' you want to.
5 - There are no boss fights, but your interactions actually influence how the events/story evolves.
6 - There is no end of story.

But there is one major thing needed... An Imagination!

That is what is lacking in the other games, They give you everything and you don't need to put any of yourself in to the game. Elite is different...

Instead of being a game that plans your every move and leads you down a set path, Elite is totally open.

Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.

I agree. Enyway, Frontier need talk more with us about 'bugs', updates, etc. Simple that.

 

[streki]

"Wow, look at that planet! Let me imagine what's on it, because there's no planetary landing yet!"

<sigh>

Its almost like you're deliberately missing the point.

I honestly don't know how to help you understand.

And frankly I don't have the energy to try, so I'm gonna fall back on the classic "perhaps this game isn't for you" cop out.

If you don't appreciate the immersive reality that this game is projecting, then why continue to beat your head against the wall? Log out...go play something else...and come back in 6 months to see if ED has become anything like what you obviously expect it to be.

 

[darkcyd]

I posted this on one of the Facebook groups I'm a member of in response to a few people saying that there was no 'Game' in Elite and that there was nothing to keep them playing.

It prompted quite a discussion, with no flaming, no name calling, no tempers getting heated... just a nice open discussion on the current games market and what Elite is. I thought I would re-post it here...

========================================​

Picture this... I don't know if you are old enough to remember or if you were alive
then, but back in the 1980s computer games all followed (pretty much) the same structure...

You had three lives, and perhaps a power-up, a bomb or a bonus item of some sort. You could get a bonus life/bomb/item at various points through the game. You played till you lost your lives and that was it.

Then along came Elite, which through away the rule book and tried to do something different. And it did. And without Elite breaking the rules back then you probably wouldn't have games like GTA, Eve, Warcraft, etc.,

Now, 30yrs later it is trying to break the mold again by throwing away the new 'rule book' for online gaming. Look at the games that are out there... What do you see?

You see a selection of game that all appear to be different from each other, but have a closer look... Nearly all of them follow the same pattern (or rules).
1 - Start game with big introduction placing you in the middle of a big event.
2 - Make the player the most important character in the event.
3 - Give player a walkthough and then set stages for them to complete
4 - At the end of each stage give the player a bonus
5 - At the end of a set of stages, give them a boss fight and a bonus
6 - Repeat till end of story.

Now, I enjoy some of these games myself, play a lot of them. But you are basically following the same process through each game.

Now here comes Elite...
1 - It places you in a live galaxy.
2 - You aren't the most important person in the game.
3 - It allows you to find your own way.
4 - They provide a set of events which you can decide to interact with 'if' you want to.
5 - There are no boss fights, but your interactions actually influence how the events/story evolves.
6 - There is no end of story.

But there is one major thing needed... An Imagination!

That is what is lacking in the other games, They give you everything and you don't need to put any of yourself in to the game. Elite is different...

Instead of being a game that plans your every move and leads you down a set path, Elite is totally open.

Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.

I know you mean well man, but here is the problem I have with that.

This is the most antisocial solo only game created in 10 years. No chat, no grouping functions. I have played many hours almost to the Lakon 9 and have not said a single word to anybody in game. It is just you and the stars. Now, you are saying I need to be role playing...with who?

So, I can tell all my friends on the forum of my 30th trip in the past 2 hours I made in my Lakon?

I get that they rushed the release and it is a sandbox game. Of all my complaints of this game, I hold this one back the most because they did push this game out on a light budget and did a good job for the most part.

Does that mean they shouldn't be pushing some real playable content? Like actual wars or at least small border skirmishes. Hell, even give the space truckers a calling and lettem take bullets to the front line...just gotta dock with a battle ship that is underfire. I can think of a million things they need to do but haven't yet. That is okay. They will hopefully get there or we'll all walk away from it. Because a role playing game...tis is not.

 

[Quineloe]

I think the main problem is 'using your imagination' and 'this is what games were like in the 80s' those 2 things fail to see that neither of them should be factors in this age of gaming. If you don't role play then your not going to be getting much from an imagination, and well this isn't the 80s plain and simple.

I find the 'use your imagination' to be condescending.

Op did not say 'that's how it was in the 80s, you simply did not understand what he said.

Agree on the imagination thing, though. That's basically the race card of the content discussion.

 

[AndyHill]

Of course you have good points there, but I would differ on a number of points. I am also one of the people blown away by Elite in the '80s and I do have a fairly vivid imagination. The thing is, gaming and game design has taken massive steps forward during the 30 years since the release of the original Elite. A good comparison is Space Rangers 2, because it managed to do things so right about a decade ago and should be used as a role model for future - and present - games.

In Space Rangers 2 the universe is populated with actual AI creatures. Not random generated stuff that's there just for show. They trade, pirate, hunt bounties and do whatever they need to to gain fame and rise in rank. If you get a bounty hunting mission you don't go sit in space waiting for USS to appear so that someone can tip you towards another system where you again pop a few USS until you find the random generated enemy and dispatch him for a reward. Instead you check out the news and possible tips given in the mission briefing and go out hunting. He's out there somewhere doing stuff - in fact he probably already did something to gain that bounty - you just need to find him. Preferably before someone else does. Get pirated by an NPC early on in your career? Work hard, equip a battleship, search the dude's name in the galactic google and...

SR2 also has a rather massive war going on between the armed forces of the galaxy and an alien invader. I'm again sure there's some cheating going on, but these two actually fight it out and depending on the difficulty level it's entirely possible for one side to lose before you can have a real impact on the proceedings. When the aliens invade it's not a single location where endlessly random-generated entities fight it out in order to shift a percentage value, it's a full scale invasion and you or the other inhabitants might get smashed. If the enemy is invading a place where you have stored goods, you'd better either defend it or pick the stuff up and run before it's destroyed. When the galactic navies mount a counter offensive it's a huge gathering in a neighboring system with a set date for attack and an open invitation to join. Let's just say that when the fight starts, it's not a single random location in the system with endlessly random generated ships shooting each other to raise percentages while the rest of the system doesn't even notice.

The equipment upgrading is also a bit more involved than in Elite. It's not just the exact same stuff everywhere, in fact every single ship and piece of hardware is pretty much unique. There are archetypes, but the damage done, range, weight etc. of a weapon of type X or a ship type A is somewhat randomized. There's almost endless possibility for equipping your ship, getting the basic 'conda with optimal weapon loadout is just the first step. Of course you don't have to hop from station to another to find the stuff, there's galactic google that will help you with that (and other stuff, need to find the nearest place with certain goods in store - ask ggoogle).

Perhaps most importantly, when you get to a stage where you can defeat hordes of pirate lords or buy military platforms to help defend the galaxy everyone is sure to take notice. You will appear in the news feed with speculations on what you're going to do next. In fact you can start mounting invasions of your own just because people get so curious that they will actually follow you and if you jump into an occupied system they will jump in with you for the honor of fighting by your side (or pick up the spoils, whichever is more likely is up to you). Most certainly you will not get interdicted by the IKILLYOUNOW sidewinder on your way home to cash in on the bounties of four anaconda pirate lords.

That's how you make things matter in an imaginary universe. The problem with Elite currently isn't the lack of imagination people have and Elite is not currently in any way smarter than the state of the art. We're not in the 3 lives and extra guns world anymore, in fact we're further out from it than Elite is. In many ways Elite is not a trailblazer, it's following behind the state of the art. That's why people are asking for more and better things. In fact the original plans included interactivity more on the level of SR2 and the likes, I don't know what the situation is now.

However, Elite has a pretty strong start. Even if it feels like it's built entirely of placeholders, it looks good, feels good and works pretty well while already being massively addictive to many (including me). And being built of placeholders is not a bad thing at all - in fact that's exactly how you start building an epic masterpiece, a step at a time - as long as the current features are just that, placeholders waiting to be replaced with more involved gameplay. The future is certainly going to be interesting.

 

[medwyn]

Elite was a very unique experience back then. There really has been nothing like it since. Space games yes, but as you mentioned, they tended to put you at the centre of their story.

Today's generation are far more experienced gamers than we were when we got the original Elite.

Unfortunately, their experience is entirely dominated by games that again put the player at the centre of the situation, with huge set pieces and a story-on-rails. Essentially brainwashed into a expectation of what games should be in order to be good.

This is not a criticism of youth, but rather an observation of the gaming industry over at least the last decade.

ED today (like Elite back in the 80s) is a unique game - it demands your imagination to "get" the experience. If you've only ever played games that drag you along from plot point to plot point, punctuated with specific goals and set pieces, and boss battles, then understand that you should not expect Elite to give you the same experience.

Its not broken because it doesn't do this.

Absolutely agree.

 

[Krait_79]

I posted this on one of the Facebook groups I'm a member of in response to a few people saying that there was no 'Game' in Elite and that there was nothing to keep them playing.

It prompted quite a discussion, with no flaming, no name calling, no tempers getting heated... just a nice open discussion on the current games market and what Elite is. I thought I would re-post it here...

========================================​

Picture this... I don't know if you are old enough to remember or if you were alive
then, but back in the 1980s computer games all followed (pretty much) the same structure...

You had three lives, and perhaps a power-up, a bomb or a bonus item of some sort. You could get a bonus life/bomb/item at various points through the game. You played till you lost your lives and that was it.

Then along came Elite, which through away the rule book and tried to do something different. And it did. And without Elite breaking the rules back then you probably wouldn't have games like GTA, Eve, Warcraft, etc.,

Now, 30yrs later it is trying to break the mold again by throwing away the new 'rule book' for online gaming. Look at the games that are out there... What do you see?

You see a selection of game that all appear to be different from each other, but have a closer look... Nearly all of them follow the same pattern (or rules).
1 - Start game with big introduction placing you in the middle of a big event.
2 - Make the player the most important character in the event.
3 - Give player a walkthough and then set stages for them to complete
4 - At the end of each stage give the player a bonus
5 - At the end of a set of stages, give them a boss fight and a bonus
6 - Repeat till end of story.

Now, I enjoy some of these games myself, play a lot of them. But you are basically following the same process through each game.

Now here comes Elite...
1 - It places you in a live galaxy.
2 - You aren't the most important person in the game.
3 - It allows you to find your own way.
4 - They provide a set of events which you can decide to interact with 'if' you want to.
5 - There are no boss fights, but your interactions actually influence how the events/story evolves.
6 - There is no end of story.

But there is one major thing needed... An Imagination!

That is what is lacking in the other games, They give you everything and you don't need to put any of yourself in to the game. Elite is different...

Instead of being a game that plans your every move and leads you down a set path, Elite is totally open.

Elite is whatever 'You' bring to the game.

Excellent post. Always nice to see someone who gets it!

 

[Dalmat]

I think that the most young players have one big problem..

IMAGINATION!!

You are right Fenris..

ED is here to help with that, but only if they are willing.. Otherwise, they will feel this game as "slow"..

 

[CMDR Canaris]

I read this thread and see a lot of people looking through rose-tinted glasses. They don't realize the largest gamer demographic right now prefers sandbox/free roam style games much like Elite which require an active imagination.

Elite today does not offer a unique experience nor did it change gaming in the 80s because it was never as successful as other games that did.

 

[Bigcheese]

Excellent post. Always nice to see someone who gets it!

Yes, ED is on par with games from the early 80s in terms of structure. You guys can pretend this is a feature, but you all know the game is simply woefully incomplete.

The universe is not alive or dynamic. Text boxes and generic conflict zones are such a shallow and poor substitute for, well, anything of actual substance.

The game is nowhere near complete and is still lacking basic features that FD themselves are currently working on. This thread is just fanboys trying to convince themselves the game is better than it really is and looking down on anyone who notices otherwise. Why bother?

You do not "get it". You are actually refusing to if you think about it. I like the game and am looking forward to it becoming more of a game, but let's stop with the self delusion, okay? Elite has the width of an ocean, but the depth of a puddle.

 

[Xbob42]

<sigh>

Its almost like you're deliberately missing the point.

I honestly don't know how to help you understand.

And frankly I don't have the energy to try, so I'm gonna fall back on the classic "perhaps this game isn't for you" cop out.

If you don't appreciate the immersive reality that this game is projecting, then why continue to beat your head against the wall? Log out...go play something else...and come back in 6 months to see if ED has become anything like what you obviously expect it to be.

What, exactly, IS your point? You have only told me that I'm missing something, that I'm not enjoying this "immersive reality."

All of my points directly contradict what you're saying about it being immersive. I can't leave my ship, at all. Ever. My pilot is soldered to his chair and is eternally damned to shoot, trade, or look at the stars.

I have to land on a station to pay my fine or collect a bounty because apparently technology in 3300 is so far behind that they can instantly put a bounty on me the microsecond I do something wrong, but I can neither appeal it or pay it on the spot. Jump through hundreds of light years? No problem. Pay a fine remotely? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?

The immersion of not being able to land on a planet! Man, I'm so immersed.

The game right now is basically an astronomical tool, a way to very slowly see a ton of different stars in the galaxy. It has a thin veneer of a game layered over it. I agree, the scale of the game is impressive, loading up that star map and watching my screen fill with tens of thousands of on-screen stars, all of which I can travel to at will, is very neat.

It's just that there's not much to DO. Part of immersion for me is variety. Elite lacks variety. My imagination cannot add game mechanics. My imagination can't fix the broken online play. My imagination only goes so far.

I get what the game is, and I get that some people are happy with it as is. I'm not. I want more. As I said, if everything FD has talked about was actually in-game right now, it would probably be my favorite game of all time. The features they've talked about sound incredible, but all they've finished is the flight model and some basic mission archetypes.

I still have fun with the game, I don't need you or anyone else to recommend I leave or that it's not for me. If I hated the game, I wouldn't bother posting here. I cut my losses and leave if I have a bad game. This is not a bad game, it's an unfinished one. But sadly the label reads "1.0," which in game development terms means "content complete." Any truly major changes, like those planetary landings I'm positively DROOLING for, will sadly be in paid expansions. I'm hoping they don't do this with every major feature they've talked about. Eventually it will be very expensive to get the entire experience if so.

And the irony of people on this forum talking about how kids these days lack "imagination" is pitifully tragic, as imaginative, freeform games where players determine everything is THE hot thing right now. Minecraft alone blows away any sort of imagination anyone here used in the past -- let alone other games like Starmade, Space Engineers, Kerbal Space Program, Landmark, etc. Imagination is the hot new thing. Your imagination is not welcome in Elite Dangerous, however.

 

[CMDR Canaris]

I agree with you completely Xbob42, well said. It's like I said before, there are a handful of 'occupations' and they're all incredibly predictable. The game is practically a tech demo.

 

[Alric]

XBob makes key points. People stereotype modern games and gamers quite wrongly. Yes there are a number of formulas that are used over and over, but by no means every game and by no means every very popular game follows them. Most of these attributes which are seen as unique to Elite are absolutely not - not any more. Minecraft is a perfect example.

But let's turn it around and not look at those games that are different. Take one that's pretty formulaic like Rift. In essence your standard theme park MMO. Didn't break any mould, didn't revolutionise the industry - had some bells and whistles but standard stuff, did pretty well.

Rift has a story where you're someone very special, saving the world. It has a level grind and gear progression and raids and boss mobs. Overland areas with quests and mobs, instanced dungeons and instanced PvP. A perfect cookie from the cookie cutter.

Now, imaging the devs of that game simply removed the story. Deleted the raids and cut out the boss mobs. What would be left?

Lots of open areas with many enemies that I could travel through and kill. Friendly NPCs with missions I could accept if I so chose, or not - and if I chose not to, I wouldn't miss any major story. Resources I could mine, equipment upgrades I can get.

So still a fair amount to do there. But no story. I could, however, decide that I'm on a crusade against the Orcs. I could travel the world looking for anywhere Orcs can be found, and kill them. The combat would not be very challenging, but I could imagine that I am driving the Orcs back and helping make each area a little safer by my efforts. The world would not change to reflect this, but I could play that way and imagine that my efforts had an effect. Or perhaps I could be an accomplished miner or artisan.. in fact, with the game not dictating my path in life.. I could be anything!

I guess you can see my point. I don't want another cookie cutter game which holds your hand through every last thing, makes you the saviour of the universe and drip feeds you a story. But the absence of those things on its own does not make for a good open ended game. Tons of games have a game world where you can do all sorts of things and imagine your own story. But very few do because those aspects of the game are not well developed, and the story and raid content is much more fun.

To make a game without those things compelling in the long-term, you need to have much stronger elements elsewhere, and interplay between them creating emergent gameplay (need food in minecraft = farm on the surface, want to fight need food also need weapons and armour = need to mine = need to fight, need more food - time to build a farm, etc).

E : D has the potential to be an amazing open ended universe with tons of interesting emergent gameplay. But right now, it doesn't have it. Your involvement with the universe barely goes beyond a single transaction (quest), or spawn point (USS). There's no great interplay between gameplay elements or impact or consequence of your actions. Those things need to be added to really make it an engaging game long-term when compared with other things on the market today. Elite broke the mould in the 1980s but Elite : Dangerous has not done that in 2014. I think it can in 2015, however.

 

[Bigcheese]

I agree with you completely Xbob42, well said. It's like I said before, there are a handful of 'occupations' and they're all incredibly predictable. The game is practically a tech demo.

I had a similar thought. What exists now is a wonderful demo for what will hopefully turn into a full game.

 

[Max Torps]

I generally avoid opinion driven forum threads, they tend to be very polar with all sorts of behaviour derailing discussions however given the backdrop of recent negative threads I would like to chip in and say that I entirely agree with Fenris Wolf, Streki and the others on the observations they have made. Those with an alternative view of history may need to re-examine the facts and maybe their own motives.

On saying that however, I do feel that the game needs fleshing out in many areas, the missions at the very least. A little more effort into the personalisation of mission threads isn't that hard to implement. Nor is fixing many things that are not up to par such as the wanted systems. Fix the main "professions" as we call them and then we can truly take stock of where we are.