The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[VR] Bulbulunufus

[VR] Bulbulunufus
Darrack said:
That has nothing to do with PvP open or Solo/PG, that's an issue for Fdev, not the players.

O7
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PvP combat hasn't come into it. The guy earlier was talking about botting in solo/PG. If you're in open I can check that your account is behaving like a human is controlling it, and that your ships are destructible.

It's all well and good if FDev do a good job of controlling exploits and botting. Problem is that many people who love the game nonetheless aren't confident that these problems are taken care of. In powerplay in particular the neglect is such, over so many years, that your trust in FDev to keep things above board is kind of laughable. It really is down to the players to engender trust with each other. It's basically a decision about which kind of imperfect feature you want. One with "unwanted PvP" where everyone flies in open, or one that players avoid due to endemic trust issues.
 

Northpin

Northpin
[VR] Bulbulunufus said:
PvP combat hasn't come into it. The guy earlier was talking about botting in solo/PG. If you're in open I can check that your account is behaving like a human is controlling it, and that your ships are destructible.

It's all well and good if FDev do a good job of controlling exploits and botting. Problem is that many people who love the game nonetheless aren't confident that these problems are taken care of. In powerplay in particular the neglect is such, over so many years, that your trust in FDev to keep things above board is kind of laughable. It really is down to the players to engender trust with each other. It's basically a decision about which kind of imperfect feature you want. One with "unwanted PvP" where everyone flies in open, or one that players avoid due to endemic trust issues.
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The problem is not Botting in solo/pg
The problem is you, as a PVPer, are chasing wild gooses in Open, faffing around doing nothing (actually complaining about soloers), instead of filling buckets like the people that are focused on their goals - and again, there is no goal in this game that is asking you to kill another player.

Edit:
Look at it like this
Let's say you're are part of an Open Only PP squadron. You have a certain percentage of "workers" - the ones that are filling the PP buckets - but this one is never 100% and they're running builds not that optimal for ferrying merits because they have to survive in open. And then you have the rest of the players as scouts, hunters and escorts.

While a smart squadron of equal size, playing in PG only - will have 100% haulers, all running perfectly optimized builds all focused on their goals and all being very efficient while doing so...

Guess who is the winning squadron and who is the looser (L) complaining about botting in solo/pg
 
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Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell
alexzk said:
Wrong. It can be done in PG.
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"It can be done" sounds like a scenario, sure can do it... but. all that may happen remains in a finite number of outcomes.
Northpin said:
Correct, so maybe it would be wise for everyone not enjoying ganking to keep asking for a open-pve mode and force all the pvp-ers in their own PG - just saying... for a change 🙃
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Ah, I forgot about the flawed statement "all PvPers are gankers"... 💅 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️
 

[VR] Bulbulunufus

[VR] Bulbulunufus
Northpin said:
The problem is not Botting in solo/pg
The problem is you, as a PVPer, are chasing wild gooses in Open, faffing around doing nothing (actually complaining about soloers), instead of filling buckets like the people that are focused on their goals - and again, there is no goal in this game that is asking you to kill another player.

Edit:
Look at it like this
Let's say you're are part of an Open Only PP squadron. You have a certain percentage of "workers" - the ones that are filling the PP buckets - but this one is never 100% and they're running builds not that optimal for ferrying merits because they have to survive in open. And then you have the rest of the players as scouts, hunters and escorts.

While a smart squadron of equal size, playing in PG only - will have 100% haulers, all running perfectly optimized builds all focused on their goals and all being very efficient while doing so...

Guess who is the winning squadron and who is the looser (L) complaining about botting in solo/pg
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The problem is botting only if botting is happening or felt likely to be happening. That is certainly true. Also your example demonstrates how dull and lifeless powerplay becomes when people maxmin in PG. Seriously, you might as well get a bot to do it, it's so lame.

Let me give you another example, your whole player group of experienced players never sees an enemy - so everyone can focus on PvE, at which they are very good. The contest is very important and your squadron are very committed, having laid the ground for the op for months. A group 1/10th the size claims victory against you in an otherwise equal contest. This involves the members of that group earning an order of magnitude more than you thought possible. Now perhaps they went without sleep for a week and quit their jobs. Maybe they have some new allies that you don't know about. But you have no idea, because you never see them. Meanwhile you know AFKing across an army of alts per player is something that can be done and has been done before. It's really got nothing to do with PvP combat. This is an exaggerated example to get it way over the line of where suspicions would creep in. The truth is, the limits of earning powerplay merits per hour have been well mapped over many years, so x10 isn't needed to raise eyebrows.

The issue is, and I'll reiterate, in a competitive feature, you need to be able to have confidence that progress is earnt through normal player behaviour. There is a burden on players, like it or not, to behave in a way that engenders trust across opposing sides, because actions can be carried out entirely in secret.
 
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angusmadmac1

angusmadmac1
Rebel Yell said:
"It can be done" sounds like a scenario, sure can do it... but. all that may happen remains in a finite number of outcomes.

Ah, I forgot about the flawed statement "all PvPers are gankers"... 💅 🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️
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The problem is that everyone gets compartmentalized.
All PG/Solo are carebears and hide in their little groups .
Anyone critical of Elite are doomsters.
All PvPers are gankers.
All of which isn't true but........ Those are the labels we live with.

But back on track if PP was so combat orientated why doesn't effect every day toings and froings ? I can go to my PP enemies station with no hassle from the the station or security or get overcharged ?? The list goes on
So if the game doesn't care ? Why is it such a big who ha for some folk ?
Fdev won't change it's stance not after 8 years after I started playing....
 

[VR] Bulbulunufus

[VR] Bulbulunufus
angusmadmac1 said:
The problem is that everyone gets compartmentalized.
All PG/Solo are carebears and hide in their little groups .
Anyone critical of Elite are doomsters.
All PvPers are gankers.
All of which isn't true but........ Those are the labels we live with.

But back on track if PP was so combat orientated why doesn't effect every day toings and froings ? I can go to my PP enemies station with no hassle from the the station or security or get overcharged ?? The list goes on
So if the game doesn't care ? Why is it such a big who ha for some folk ?
Fdev won't change it's stance not after 8 years after I started playing....
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It's a balance between giving players something to compete over, but without it turning things upside down for the average player I guess. Given the current mechanical weaknesses in PP, that's probably a good thing tbh. Although if you're doing BGS for a faction then powerplay can come into heavy conflict with you due to powerplay leveraging BGS very heavily.
 

[VR] Bulbulunufus

[VR] Bulbulunufus
Helmut Grokenberger said:
Honestly, claiming doing PP in PG or Solo being akin to botting, or calling those focusing more on the asymmetrical PvP aspect rather than the ship-go-boom aspect "simple minded" doesn't do the PvPers a service. Well it does, just not a good one.
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The assertion is that PG and solo make botting/AFKing and hacks much easier, and undetectable by other players. If you were going to do those things for PvE purposes, which mode would you choose?

Nothing's going to change, don't worry. But you've got to wonder what people are up to desperately trying to deny the possibility of this stuff, or purposefully misreading or whatever it is.
 

Helmut Grokenberger

Helmut Grokenberger
Sorry mate, but the assertion that most of the players who chose (legitimately and by the rules) to do their PP in Solo or PG are doing it because it makes botting so much easier is as lame as the old "my ship was too quickly destroyed by another player, so they must be hacking". Maybe you ship was just a paper plane, and maybe you're just bad at bucket filling (the proverbial "you" that keeps losing in PP).
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
This is the only warning I'm going to give about being derogatory to people with opposing views. It's is completely out of order to claim people are simple minded just because they have a view or opinion that is opposite to yours. Especially when you have literally nothing to prove what mode people are playing in. Not being able to see someone does not mean they're not playing in Open.

It has been a long time since I was dragged back into this thread, and I don't enjoy reading the pettiness. So let's act more civil towards each other please.
 

Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell
Helmut Grokenberger said:
Honestly, claiming doing PP in PG or Solo being akin to botting, or calling those focusing more on the asymmetrical PvP aspect rather than the ship-go-boom aspect "simple minded" doesn't do the PvPers a service. Well it does, just not a good one.
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Open doesn't even mean PvP... that's another misconception.

Excluding the PvP-hardcore community members, who spend most of their playing time training/improving their skills, or mentoring their fellow disciples... on average all other open-only players involved in BGS (random or squadron/PMF driven), powerplay (module or group driven) does have very little % of game time in PvP related stuff.

At the end being in open just requires some kind of a compromise for ship choices/builds... and it's quite far unbalanced on the self-defence than in the "ship-go-boom" stance.

The fact that a CMDR can fly a paper ship (with minimal on none engineering) for hauling without being "worried" of NPCs (solo/PG) is because the overall difficulty has been set at a very low level... this has been discussed many times on the forum.
 
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Darrack

Darrack
Rebel Yell said:
very low level
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I get what your saying but at Elite rank you still have to build a decent boat to survive some of the stuff that comes at you.
Defo would have no problem with it being harder though, my objection to Open play has always been to gankers and general muppets, not too role-players or pirates.
I just cant be doing with some if the idiots out there, Open PVE would be a dream.

O7
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
Darrack said:
Ganking then? :ROFLMAO:

O7
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No.

Like flying into Sag A* and randomly meeting 2 other Cmdrs there and sharing our stories about how we got there and what we were doing.

Like being pirated at a CG, and while haggling with the pirate about how much cargo I had to drop another Cmdr jumped in and laid down covering fire telling me to run.

Like being pirated by Bigmaec in an Adder... while I was trying to do a Buckyball race in Colonia.

This kind of ridiculous stereotyping and baiting is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. The only reason I'm leaving it is so I can publicly make it crystal clear that this sort of stuff will not be tolerated either! So knock it off.
 

Darrack

Darrack
Ozric said:
No.

Like flying into Sag A* and randomly meeting 2 other Cmdrs there and sharing our stories about how we got there and what we were doing.

Like being pirated at a CG, and while haggling with the pirate about how much cargo I had to drop another Cmdr jumped in and laid down covering fire telling me to run.

Like being pirated by Bigmaec in an Adder... while I was trying to do a Buckyball race in Colonia.

This kind of ridiculous stereotyping and baiting is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. The only reason I'm leaving it is so I can publicly make it crystal clear that this sort of stuff will not be tolerated either! So knock it off.
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Glad you had experiences with some decent folks, sadly mine were far from that.

O7
 
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