The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[SergMx]

There'd be no reason to remove anything from the game - it would be up to each player to decide whether they could cope with the limitations on their ability to shoot at anything that moves that choosing to play in an Open-PvE game mode would represent and up to each player to use their common sense when selecting activities.

There would also be no guarantee whatsoever of meeting a player who selected the opposing side in any CZ. If a player did meet an opposing player in a CZ in Open-PvE mode and couldn't cope with that then simplest solution would be "don't take those missions while playing in Open-PvE mode" or even simpler "don't play in Open-PvE mode".

Same with Powerplay. An Open-PvE game mode would be functionally very similar to one of the many PvE Private Groups, i.e. "don't engage in PvP, whatever you are doing in game". If players find that limitation difficult to understand or abide by then they'd very probably be better off playing in Open(-PvP) mode.

I understand you. And pardon my hard-headedness, but based on your words in essence there is no need for a mode open for PvE, a private group can cope with it, when the player deliberately limits himself.
One of my old suggestions about openness is that a player with a notoriety higher than 1 can't get into an open game. It's as simple as that.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I understand you. And pardon my hard-headedness, but based on your words in essence there is no need for a mode open for PvE, a private group can cope with it, when the player deliberately limits himself.

Private Groups can't cope - as they are limited to 20,000 members which is pitifully small in relation to over 12,000,000 copies of the game out there. So at most a Private Group could have 0.17% of all players in it - if they all played at the same time (which they don't) and if they were all still playing the game (which is highly unlikely given how long it would take to grow a Private Group to 20,000 members who can be trusted to play by its rules).

One of my old suggestions about openness is that a player with a notoriety higher than 1 can't get into an open game. It's as simple as that.

What relevance does notoriety, which is applied to PvE actions as well as PvEP actions, have on playing in Open?

 

[SergMx]

Private Groups can't cope - as they are limited to 20,000 members which is pitifully small in relation to over 12,000,000 copies of the game out there. So at most a Private Group could have 0.17% of all players in it - if they all played at the same time (which they don't) and if they were all still playing the game (which is highly unlikely given how long it would take to grow a Private Group to 20,000 members who can be trusted to play by its rules).

What relevance does notoriety, which is applied to PvE actions as well as PvE actions, have on playing in Open?

Yeah I understand about the PG limitation.

A person who gets notoriety from a NPC essentially changes nothing for himself, he also continues to play in a single or private game. I realize it's not ideal, but it's very simple.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

A PG also cannot cope with rules. In a PG, "no PvP" is nothing but an agreement that can be ( aand has been) broken easlily. In an open PvE mode, it is a rule enforced by game mechanics.

 

[angusmadmac1]

Yeah, I get that, but single mode is a different mode.
I just wanted to show that just banning shooting can't cover everything, at the very least, you'd have to remove the CZ missions from the game.
Or in the case of PP, players in this case must be in the same Force, etc.
Based on this I think a normal open PvE mode will be difficult to make.

I'm not sure what CZ missions would have to be removed ? Kill x amount of faction A ? just jump to another CZ or log into open do a cz log back into PG do a cz or log into solo and do a cz . People relog all the time . It's not particularly hard or long to do .
It also shows how bad instances are in the game as you rarely relog in with the one you logout with ?
Mobius has shown it works for as long as I have been playing (2016). It also shows there is a playstyle for that as shown by multiple mobius PG's.
Rules get broken you have to deal with those people .
Hence why I ask how do you enforce the only Open rules some PP groups have ?
A button for No PvP ? Works in NMS and that has multiplatform ? You would then be seen if you were lucky/ unlucky enough to instance with the enemies. But all you need is the traffic reports ?
And as for noteriety? Well there is another thread about C&P and how broke it is .

 

[Darrack]

Based on this I think a normal open PvE mode will be difficult to make.

Nope it wouldn't be difficult, we enforce Mobius ourselves as players, Fdev have control of the programming.

O7

 

[Miscellaneous]

Maybe you ought to scroll away the tail of that 20k group. So each addition removes the one that was added (or used) the 20,000th one ago. I mean, you could put it as a straightforward suggestion.

I might join a group that had straightforward player vs player rule like it sounds like the Mobius used to (battle ok in combat zones). That would be great. I was actually thinking and thinking why my subconscious still was rejecting it and wanting open.

Well one thing is just finding delight in nature of the open mode versus finding it a hindrance to some "private objectives". I take the delight and love watching little green icons of chance encounter CMDRs maybe I only ever met once. They go places and presumably do things at the places. And then sometimes I got attacked and killed. (Not as many times as I taunted those who would though!). Delight!

Then I realized hey in open mode I can already do that rule. I think I'd look for the highly trafficked or perhaps allied systems. Heck I in the core systems and just got my Alioth system permit. I feel some Alliance business coming on

 

[Darrack]

Maybe you ought to scroll away the tail of that 20k group. So each addition removes the one that was added (or used) the 20,000th one ago. I mean, you could put it as a straightforward suggestion.

I might join a group that had straightforward player vs player rule like it sounds like the Mobius used to (battle ok in combat zones). That would be great. I was actually thinking and thinking why my subconscious still was rejecting it and wanting open.

Well one thing is just finding delight in nature of the open mode versus finding it a hindrance to some "private objectives". I take the delight and love watching little green icons of chance encounter CMDRs maybe I only ever met once. They go places and presumably do things at the places. And then sometimes I got attacked and killed. (Not as many times as I taunted those who would though!). Delight!

Then I realized hey in open mode I can already do that rule. I think I'd look for the highly trafficked or perhaps allied systems. Heck I in the core systems and just got my Alioth system permit. I feel some Alliance business coming on

The difference in Mobius is that i can meet other players at Guardian sites or whilst doing CGs knowing im going to have a decent chat.
I dropped into a Guardian site for some blueprints last week and another player turned up a few minutes later, its good to know he wasn't going to blow up my ship whilst i was in my SRV, that worry doesn't exist, we just cracked on and did the site together.

O7

 

[Jockey79]

I understand you. And pardon my hard-headedness, but based on your words in essence there is no need for a mode open for PvE, a private group can cope with it, when the player deliberately limits himself.

There is a need, as PGs are limited in how many people can be in them as Robert stated, a Frontier-made Open PvE mode wouldn't have that.
And people still break the rules of the Mobius Group and shoot other players, which in a Frontier-made group couldn't happen as player-to-player damage would be disabled.

One of my old suggestions about openness is that a player with a notoriety higher than 1 can't get into an open game. It's as simple as that.

So making a poor copy of EVE Online's system would be abused. People can pick up the game for £5 and for £30 you have 6 alts you could cycle to harass and grieve other players. Plus the game doesn't auto-force you out of Open Mode, so people could go on a rampage all day and not worry until they log out. Then they use an alt to do it again the next day.

In a real Open PvE Mode, none of that happens.

 

[Brrokk]

The difference in Mobius is that i can meet other players at Guardian sites or whilst doing CGs knowing im going to have a decent chat.
I dropped into a Guardian site for some blueprints last week and another player turned up a few minutes later, its good to know he wasn't going to blow up my ship whilst i was in my SRV, that worry doesn't exist, we just cracked on and did the site together.

O7

That's the paradox I've noted before. In theory Open is the mode offering the richest options in gameplay. In practice you always have to be suspicious of others, and my best friendly encounters and longest lore chats have been in Mobius.

By making PvP possible, Open actually makes other interactions less likely.

To me, Mobius is by far the more enjoyable game setting, although I often use Open for AX stuff because there are enough like-minded people at the few locations involved at any given time.

 

[SergMx]

That's the paradox I've noted before. In theory Open is the mode offering the richest options in gameplay. In practice you always have to be suspicious of others, and my best friendly encounters and longest lore chats have been in Mobius.

By making PvP possible, Open actually makes other interactions less likely.

To me, Mobius is by far the more enjoyable game setting, although I often use Open for AX stuff because there are enough like-minded people at the few locations involved at any given time.

I don't know if I'm going off topic or not, but that's exactly what I think the main problem is.
Danger should not be separated by game modes, single player, PG and open.
Danger should be reflected by the world around it.
If it's a billion dollar system with great security then the possibility of random attack should be nullified. If it is some kind of Anarchy, then the attack must be waited for constantly.

 

[Jockey79]

I don't know if I'm going off topic or not, but that's exactly what I think the main problem is.
Danger should not be separated by game modes, single player, PG and open.
Danger should be reflected by the world around it.
If it's a billion dollar system with great security then the possibility of random attack should be nullified. If it is some kind of Anarchy, then the attack must be waited for constantly.

And right now, systems like Shinrarta Dezhra, or engineers systems are the places that should have the highest security.
Yet they are the most likely places to be destroyed by another player.

While just 3 - 4 jumps away from them, in anarchy systems you'll likely never see another player and only the NPCs bother you.

So for a true experience, as you've described, you're better off in Mobius.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I don't know if I'm going off topic or not, but that's exactly what I think the main problem is.
Danger should not be separated by game modes, single player, PG and open.
Danger should be reflected by the world around it.
If it's a billion dollar system with great security then the possibility of random attack should be nullified. If it is some kind of Anarchy, then the attack must be waited for constantly.

If it could be made like the original Elite that would be great.

Visiting Riedequat was always an exciting time.

Problem is, engineering, extra defence modules, and overall power creep. We'd need to go back to 2014-2015 to get back to a point where combat was anything other than a HP battle.

On the topic of the need for an Open PvE mode, it is a bit strange, since many online games do have PvE and PvP servers, albeit usually they are separate worlds, not shared worlds, and i'd be more than happy for FD to do that. I think most PvEers would be, and most PvPers wouldn't be.

 

[Darrack]

since many online games do have PvE and PvP servers

Many like WOW have shut down plenty of thier PvP servers

and most PvPers wouldn't be

Because we only have a very small real PvP community, the rest are just interested in seal clubbing traders.

O7

 

[Rebel Yell]

Because we only have a very small real PvP community, the rest are just interested in seal clubbing traders.

The PvP community isn't big, but it's far away one of the most active ones for media content and continuity (not considering that the bulk of bug reports regarding ships, engineered modules [among other things] came from PvPers).

Unfortunately this sub isn't really good to represent the current figures... and I'm pretty sure that the situation would be very different today, after following many discussions on this forum, if PvPers (in general) hadn't been treated like "demons" and open-play (the game mode where PvP happens) had not been so much mistreated by the audience.

The fact that hundreds of PvPers, active in game or posting on discords and/or creating dozens of videos, are not here posting (or even reading) is because they're frankly not interested in this sub anymore... nothing to blame for that, when such statements depicting many of them as "seal clubbers" are being posted.

 

[Darrack]

The PvP community isn't big, but it's far away one of the most active ones for media content and continuity (not considering that the bulk of bug reports regarding ships, engineered modules [among other things] came from PvPers).

Unfortunately this sub isn't really good to represent the current figures... and I'm pretty sure that the situation would be very different today, after following many discussions on this forum, if PvPers (in general) hadn't been treated like "demons" and open-play (the game mode where PvP happens) had not been so much mistreated by the audience.

The fact that hundreds of PvPers, active in game or posting on discords and/or creating dozens of videos, are not here posting (or even reading) is because they're frankly not interested in this sub anymore... nothing to blame for that, when such statements depicting many of them as "seal clubbers" are being posted.

Mate we only go by the experience we have, ive very rarely had any PvP interaction, once or twice ive had a message asking for a duel when in my Vette, which ive excepted for a laugh, ive never had a pirate/griefer whatever interdict that ship.
Many of us before we got wise and left for Solo/Mobius were victims of .... well ganking really, however you dress it up, this aint PvP.

Im always careful to draw a distinction between real PvPers who set up their own fighting areas and those just killing traders because they can with no risk.

All anyone ever goes on is their experience, its not our fault that Open got a bad rep.

O7

 

[Jockey79]

Many like WOW have shut down plenty of thier PvP servers

Because we only have a very small real PvP community, the rest are just interested in seal clubbing traders.

O7

WOW shutdown all of their PvP servers and made PvP a toggle switch you throw while in a major city area.
My main character was on a PvP server (Vashj). And I rarely see anyone walking around with the PvP toggle on.
I went pet farming with my alt hunter last month with my PvP toggle on, and no one engaged at all.

Now it's the arenas and battlegrounds for PvP, getting any in the wild is very rare. The core PvP vocals are not happy.
They'd been shouting for all the PvE servers to be converted (same as here) and got the PvP servers converted to PvE.

Despite the fact I enjoy willfully playing PvP, I did laugh and laugh and laugh when Blizzard announced the change.
And should Frontier decide on an Open PvE mode / Server - I'll laugh and laugh and laugh again.

 

[Brrokk]

Mate we only go by the experience we have, ive very rarely had any PvP interaction, once or twice ive had a message asking for a duel when in my Vette, which ive excepted for a laugh, ive never had a pirate/griefer whatever interdict that ship.
Many of us before we got wise and left for Solo/Mobius were victims of .... well ganking really, however you dress it up, this aint PvP.

Im always careful to draw a distinction between real PvPers who set up their own fighting areas and those just killing traders because they can with no risk.

All anyone ever goes on is their experience, its not our fault that Open got a bad rep.

O7

I have to agree with this. I've been exploded fewer than a dozen times, but always completely without comms, apart from once with a snide remark about docking computers.

I also make a careful distinction between PvP enthusiasts and griefers, but I've never met any of the former, except in the forum.

 

[Helmut Grokenberger]

it's far away one of the most active ones for media content

"haha ship go boom" videos might qualify as media content, but... oh well I let you finish that thought.

Unfortunately this sub isn't really good to represent the current figures... and I'm pretty sure that the situation would be very different today, after following many discussions on this forum, if PvPers (in general) hadn't been treated like "demons" and open-play (the game mode where PvP happens) had not been so much mistreated by the audience.

I suggest the "PvPers" stop playing the vicim role. Those who are responsible for PvPers (griefers, really, but they are part of the PvP community, or at least identify themselves as such) being frowned upon are so because they are judged by their actions. Does it treat the "real" PvPers unfairly? Maybe. But those who consider themselves "real" PvPers while spouting "haha ship go boom" nonsense everywhere they go maybe should think twice before they speak. Good advice for life in general, too .

The fact that hundreds of PvPers, active in game or posting on discords and/or creating dozens of videos, are not here posting (or even reading) is because they're frankly not interested in this sub anymore... nothing to blame for that, when such statements depicting many of them as "seal clubbers" are being posted.

It's called an echo chamber. Discords per se are echo chambers, and of course they don't speak up here because they get little to no confirmation for their opinions. And I am pretty sure the "seal clubbers" aren't called that for no reason. There is really no justification for camping out at Chamberlain's Rest exploding starter Sidewinders. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably not a suspension bridge.

 

[Rebel Yell]

"haha ship go boom" videos might qualify as media content, but... oh well I let you finish that thought.

Besides those are just a small percentage of what's being published by the PvPers (the bulk are duels, tournaments and organised events), I laughed and had fun quite a lot watching those... not because of the "booms" but some are really comical and with hi-quality editing, post-production, music effects, etc.

I suggest the "PvPers" stop playing the vicim role. Those who are responsible for PvPers (griefers, really, but they are part of the PvP community, or at least identify themselves as such) being frowned upon are so because they are judged by their actions. Does it treat the "real" PvPers unfairly? Maybe. But those who consider themselves "real" PvPers while spouting "haha ship go boom" nonsense everywhere they go maybe should think twice before they speak. Good advice for life in general, too .

"They are judged" lol, is this a tribunal? They just got annoyed, not victimised, by the latent (well, may not be even so "latent") hypocrisy on this sub... also a logical consequence when the discussions ended up in associating a "human [bad] behaviour" with "in-game [bad] behaviour".

It's called an echo chamber. Discords per se are echo chambers, and of course they don't speak up here because they get little to no confirmation for their opinions. And I am pretty sure the "seal clubbers" aren't called that for no reason. There is really no justification for camping out at Chamberlain's Rest exploding starter Sidewinders. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's probably not a suspension bridge.

This sub is an echo chamber too, it's all depending on who's hearing... and yeah "seal clubbling" is another opinion, given that the situation at Chamberlain's is also a consequence of an evident game play flaw (introduced with Odyssey and which has only recently seen a partial fix at game launch level). They're shooting pixels, not ducks.