The pre-built AX Chieftain is terrible

[Northpin]

So you didn't try the specific build, I infer (I did somewhat skip over your voluminous citations of your doubtless excellent AX record, so sorry if I missed something).

Coincidentally just before I saw your reply I was reading a reddit post: Taking the new ARX chieftain for a spin (to Hadad from someone describing themselves as "far from a great AX pilot":







A couple of comments on the thread that I agreed with:



and



That highly skilled practitioners can solo Hydras in Asp Scouts, while admirable, is largely irrelevant. A pre-build should require moderate skill to achieve results and offer the opportunity to improve.

The facts seem to support the view that extreme skill is not necessary to get a taste of AX activity using the "AX combat jumpstart".

It's perhaps worth recalling that the pre-builds are desribed as "a great springboard for players, both new and existing, to build from and shape as they see fit".

The fact that the build can be improved indicates (to me) an intention to induct the player into AX build concepts (like no shield, low emissions engineering, etc.) rather than a failure to understand basic mechanics by the creators of those mechanics.

The pre-build looks like a compromise not only between providing enough value and providing too much value, but between facilitating the various activities under the AX umbrella. Clearly, the player is expected to specialise it according to what they want to do.

So players will need to gain skill, learn build concepts, and gather and apply resources to be effective with the pre-build.

Playing the game and progression will be required to do this.

This (IMO) is a Good Thing.

yeap, precisely this

The AX jumpstart Chief is far from terrible even tho is not optimal either.
It can allow Scout hunting, Titan visits and maybe even toying with Cyclops - with 0 rebuy - while still keeping things sort of balanced (as in is not OP in the hands of a Pro while being usable even by noobs)

 

[galahad2069]

So players will need to gain skill, learn build concepts, and gather and apply resources to be effective with the pre-build.

Players will need to gain skill, learn build concepts, and gather and apply resources to realize that they will not be effective with the pre-built ship because it's simply crap, and they will use the concepts they learned to build something that's actually good.

 

[Northpin]

Players will need to gain skill, learn build concepts, and gather and apply resources to realize that they will not be effective with pre-build because it's simply crap, and they will use the concepts they learned to build something that's actually good.

Yea, but they will still be better in that Chief than in any other less than 15-20 millions credits (which they may not even have) ship with no unlocks and no engineering at all

And come on, it's not crap - it is useable (maybe even better than that) but definitely not terrible nor crap.
Sure for a Pro (that forgot how their starter ships looked like) they may be crap - but again - these are not for Pros*


Or maybe this is the real issue? Pros want meta g5 ships, with 0 rebuy, for real money, too?

 

[Jack Winter]

yeap, precisely this

The AX jumpstart Chief is far from terrible even tho is not optimal either.
It can allow Scout hunting, Titan visits and maybe even toying with Cyclops - with 0 rebuy - while still keeping things sort of balanced (as in is not OP in the hands of a Pro while being usable even by noobs)

I'm also a bit puzzled by the builds, but I suppose that if it was a "meta" build some would decry that it's too powerful and pay to win.

IMO, it could easily be taken to a spire site to participate in some orthrus farming for cash?

 

[Northpin]

IMO, it could easily be taken to a spire site to participate in some orthrus farming for cash?

Someone took that build at a Titan, in solo, and got bonds. Sure they really knew what they were doing, but it proved that it works
It's a build that someone can use to have a go at starter AX combat, with 0 rebuy - i've said several times already - it's sort of similar if not better than my first Scout ship, a Crusader.

 

[Nowski]

Players will need to gain skill, learn build concepts, and gather and apply resources to realize that they will not be effective with pre-build because it's simply crap, and they will use the concepts they learned to build something that's actually good.

So ... Win?

 

[galahad2069]

Yea, but they will still be better in that Chief than in any other less than 15-20 millions credits (which they may not even have) ship with no unlocks and no engineering at all

And come on, it's not crap - it is useable (maybe even better than that) but definitely not terrible nor crap.
Sure for a Pro (that forgot how their starer ships looked like) they may be crap - but again - these are not for Pros*


Or maybe this is the real issue? Pros want meta g5 ships, with 0 rebuy, for real money, too?

These builds are simply bad. No player in their right mind would ever build this particular Chieftain loadout, for example. Someone who's willing to cough up real money in order to skip some of the grind could expect something that looks like their own build would look like at some point of the building process.

I'm not extremely happy with fdev's decision of introducing p2w ingame assets (which is something they said they were not going to do btw, but I digress), but as long as it's not some unique, otherwise unobtainable (or only obtainable by some exorbitant grind) builds, I can live with it, even if it's fully G5 engineered meta builds.

As for the free rebuy thing, I think it's just stupid. There was zero reason to make these builds 0 rebuy assets, there would have been way better solutions if they wanted to prevent people who are flying without rebuy from being able to lose assets they bought for real money (I'm not even convinced that this was the reason of the 0 rebuy implementation, after all fdev seems to be perfectly OK with people being able to lose modules from these pre-builds if they want to fix the loadouts by using modules that actually make sense on these ships).

 

[Rat Catcher]

No player in their right mind would ever

Are there any? From much reading around here recently (speaking for my own contributions also) I have my concerns...
But as long as you wouldn't, that is all that really matters, isn't it?

As for the free rebuy thing, I think it's just stupid.

I think it is excellent - but my reasoning is certainly exactly opposite to your own.

There was zero reason to make these builds 0 rebuy assets

Surely, if they considered there was no reason, it wouldn't have been offered?

 

[galahad2069]

I think it is excellent - but my reasoning is certainly exactly opposite to your own.

It's pretty weird to allude to your reasoning which is totally absent from your post.

 

[Rat Catcher]

It's pretty weird to allude to your reasoning which is totally absent from your post.

I'm just in favour of anything that encourages players to play - rather than engrossed contemplating my midriff over the effort I made to get where I am today in the game, or how butthurt I'd be if I was destroyed by / destroyed a ship where the player wasn't penalised on loss.

Play is allegedly recreation, so what if someone pays a tenner more than me to have their enjoyment in a game?

Happy now?

 

[Jack Winter]

Someone took that build at a Titan, in solo, and got bonds. Sure they really knew what they were doing, but it proved that it works
It's a build that someone can use to have a go at starter AX combat, with 0 rebuy - i've said several times already - it's sort of similar if not better than my first Scout ship, a Crusader.

FWIW, I'm fairly sure I could take it to a titan too... though I suspect a noob will have a different experience... poor noobs, they won't even have basic amenities like a docking computer or SCA!

 

[Northpin]

These builds are simply bad. No player in their right mind would ever build this particular Chieftain loadout, for example

The only questionable thing in that build is the research limpet in conjunction with a lack of Anti Corrosion Cargo Rack. But they still have time to fix that.
Else, my first Scout killer had a flak in the medium slot... no idea why i put it in there - i assume because i thought i will go after interceptors too, which didnt happen because, for a while, scouts were more than enough for my skills back then.

Also, that i dont see that build optimized for a specific ax activity, but to allow the newb to try several aspect of ax combat - scouts, titans even the cyclops
Sure, they will fail alot - not because of the build, but because their lack of skills - however, 0 rebuy.

As for the free rebuy thing, I think it's just stupid

Well, IMO, they should remove rebuy (credits value) altogether.
The rebuy itself is nothing to a vet anyways, so the only people that may suffer are them newbs

 

[angusmadmac1]

It's like whoever built these doesn't really play the game ?? But then that would explain some stuff .

 

[Northpin]

It's like whoever built these doesn't really play the game ?? But then that would explain some stuff .

you cannot build a perfect ship that will work on scouts, titans and interceptors while still keep in mind it will be flown by someone really new to the game and probably has no idea what fixed weapons are

 

[Exeider]

I come to the conclusion that these paid ships are meant to be duff. To prevent accusations of p2w. So, more of a leg up than completely fit for purpose.
The shop version of the T-6 laser miner isn't even fitted a DSS scanner. And is has a 'B' rated thrusters. What craziness is that!

Flimley

So Fdev goes from fully embracing Pay 2 Win, to fully embracing what is essentially a ripoff. Not exactly an improvement, in fact in many ways, actually worse. P2W at least gives you that same sense that most ladies of the night have after doing their thing, IE "You knew what this was..." but hey they are getting what they came for.

This is just, "Give Fdev money and they give you what they found in the junkyard floor of Jameson Memorial."

 

[Exeider]

It's like whoever built these doesn't really play the game ?? But then that would explain some stuff .

They don't. Former Fdevs have admitted as much. They don't play the game, the developers don't have time, and honestly, it's hard to develop a game, and then turn around and try to play it for fun. (I can attest to this at least in that I used to work for another space MMO, a true space MMO company, and I lost all motivation to play it for fun because it just felt like work.)

Management has no motivation TO play the game because well they are management, they are running a business and to them, the game is just "the product/service" they are serving up on a plate for the end customer. At least the Dev team typically treats the game as their "Project" that they try to make as good as they can out of a sense of professionalism and 'ownership', when allowed.

in the case of Fdev, management doesn't allow the dev team to develop this game properly, and management honestly seems to have some serious problems with both scheduling and prioritization. (they always have since just after Horizons came out.)

 

[Northpin]

So Fdev goes from fully embracing Pay 2 Win, to fully embracing what is essentially a ripoff. Not exactly an improvement, in fact in many ways, actually worse. P2W at least gives you that same sense that most ladies of the night have after doing their thing, IE "You knew what this was..." but hey they are getting what they came for.

This is just, "Give Fdev money and they give you what they found in the junkyard floor of Jameson Memorial."

it's a jumpstart for newbs, not p2w for pros...

 

[galahad2069]

The only questionable thing in that build is the research limpet in conjunction with a lack of Anti Corrosion Cargo Rack. But they still have time to fix that.

Not only that. The 1A repair limpet controller makes zero sense either. This is one of the modules the owner will need to sell for 0 credit because it's too small and therefore it can repair practically nothing (and A-rated repair limpets are pointless anyway). The weapon loadout, too, is garbage. Nanite torps are only good against Titans, but then the rest of the weapons make very little sense. Against Interceptors the Nanite is useless. The Gauss cannons are OKish but 2 c1 ones are very anemic, definitely not beginner-friendly. So the user will inevitably need to change the weapon loadout, losing half of those modules in the process, since they will not be allowed to store them, only sell them for 0 credits (if I understood that correctly).

Else, my first Scout killer had a flak in the medium slot... no idea why i put it in there - i assume because i thought i will go after interceptors too, which didnt happen because, for a while, scouts were more than enough for my skills back then.

There isn't really such thing as a Scout build, Scouts can be killed using nearly anything including human weapons, at least the first time I met them after they had been introduced, I was killing them with a normal PvP FDL and they died to PA volleys just fine IIRC.

Also, that i dont see that build optimized for a specific ax activity, but to allow the newb to try several aspect of ax combat - scouts, titans even the cyclops
Sure, they will fail alot - not because of the build, but because their lack of skills - however, 0 rebuy.
[...]

The rebuy itself is nothing to a vet anyways, so the only people that may suffer are them newbs

Well, they would probably fail a bit less often if the build was better.
Anyway, I don't think that noobs will be the only customers. The 'no rebuy' tag can be pretty tempting depending on your playstyle. If they ever start to sell a pre-built FDL, I'm probably going to buy one (I have plenty of free ARX). Even if I thew away half of the garbage modules I'd end up with a cheaper ship, which could be nice because:

Well, IMO, they should remove rebuy (credits value) altogether.

Morbad would probably not like that (and I can understand his point), but even that would be better than the 'no rebuy if you pay us $$$' policy.

 

[Exeider]

it's a jumpstart for newbs, not p2w for pros...

Thus proving my point, in trying to avoid P2W, they've created something even worse. And if they are intending it for newbs, then they are taking advantage of the new player's ignorance in the fact that they aren't aware that what is being offered is a rip off and that they will be able to create a much better vessel with the same minimal engineering in only a few days. I mean just point the news down the "Road to Riches" for example and they will be in a much better state, and have done so without spending any more real-life money.

 

[Northpin]

Thus proving my point, in trying to avoid P2W, they've created something even worse. And if they are intending it for newbs, then they are taking advantage of the new player's ignorance in the fact that they aren't aware that what is being offered is a rip off and that they will be able to create a much better vessel with the same minimal engineering in only a few days. I mean just point the news down the "Road to Riches" for example and they will be in a much better state, and have done so without spending any more real-life money.

again, this is not for the people that can spend 20h per week in game achieve that on their own
and it's a perfectly viable build to try various ax stuff