The problem of the Middle East animals

nutrit

nutrit
yoav_r said:
So, there are 3 regions which are still lacking compared to what's expected. These are South America, Oceania, and the Middle East. Of these, the middle east gets a lot less attention due to it being a part of a continent and not a continent in itself.

So let's talk a bit about the middle east as a bioregion. The middle east has 2 main biomes: temperate forests and deserts. In the temperate areas, it mostly shares its fauna with Europe and asia. In the desert areas it has a mostly unique fauna it shares with north africa, plus some animals from the indian region.

However, the animals mostly associated with the area are the hot climate animals, meaning that most temperate animals occure only in the outskirts of the region.

So let's review what we have in the game.

Middle eastern animals in the game:
1. European badger
2. Sacred scarab beetle
3. Puff adder
4. Egyptian fruit bat

Closely related to ME animals:
5. Fallow deer - looks the same like the ME's persian fallow deer
6. Fire Salamander - the ME's near east fire salamander was consudered a subspecies of the fire salamander until recently

Animals which technically occure in the area, but are problematic inclusions:
7. Greater flamingo - passes through the area
8. Gray wolf - according to the map ingame should include the middle east, but the model has long fur, tolerates only cold tempratures and has no tolerane to middle eastern biomes.
9. Red fox - Same as the wolf
10. Red deer - occures in the outskirts of the region, but again the model and temprature tolerance do not reflect the middle eastern population.


So, if we want "main" animals of the middle east, here's a list of the top candidates I could think of:

1. Dromedary
2. Striped Hyena
3. Wild boar
4. Eurasian otter
5. Caracal
6. Sand cat
7. Striped Hyena
8. Hamadrayas baboon
9. Arabian oryx
10. Onager
11. Arabian sand gazelle
12. Nubian ibex
13. Rock hyrax
14. Indian wolf/arabian wolf
15. Syrian brown bear
16. Indian crested porcupine

So. How likely do you think it is to get any of these animals to finally give the region some representation?

Because I'm afraid we'll keep on getting more popular alternatives from other regions, like the fallow deer, ibex, and salamander.
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I think this amazing list only lacks the Honey badger and Indian porcupine which both would be great for it.

I understand that Addax is not from the ME but since it’s really iconic desert species I would like it to be added to this desert centered pack or be added as the anniversary animal at some point.

I would also consider Barbary sheep as the ME species since they are extant in Egypt.

For the ME animal pack - My perfect line up would be:

1. Indian crested porcupine
2. Dromedary
3. Hamadryas baboon
4. Striped hyena
5. Caracal
6. Honey badger
7. Barbary sheep
Ex: Spiny tailed lizard

Addax for the anniversary

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KönigDerKaffeebohnen

K
paul78 said:
I don’t think frontier or planet zoo was ever intended to provide x amount of animals per region. That’s not even how real life zoos work. I think some regions will be hit and miss. The animals we do receive is the important thing. There’s some animals I think are beneficial to the game and there’s a lot of animals I think who’s inclusion aren’t necessary to the point I’d say we absolutely need them just because this particular region is lacking. I think if we didn’t receive another European animal it’s not going to be just terrible. Example the wild boar. People want this the peccary and the other very popular opinion being the red River hog. Say we get the red River hog I think that’s good enough not to justify the inclusion of the other two swine species. We don’t even know how much support is planned. Like Nicholas Lionrider said I think it gets to point where you prioritize one specific animal and call it good. There’s three popular bears left I mean the inclusion of all three would be great but in a world of support very well ending someday I think prioritizing one of the three is the most sensible thing to do. As far as Middle East goes a dromedary, Hamadryas baboon, Caracal and possibly the striped hyena is good enough imo. I don’t really see a niche for a sand cat as a example after receiving a Caracal. We got a Eurasian lynx which imo deemed the European wild cat as nothing more as a bonus if we got one but definitely not necessary.
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Thats a weird way to see animal selection.
I agree that there are objective reasons why some animsls should be in the game over others, but having an other animal from the same taxa doesnt make other animals redundant.
Best example would be your example of the pigs.
Why would the inclusion if the red river hog change the fact that the wild boar has a massive range, would be a unique new ungulate among that range and the last missing classical european wild park animal or that we need more south american animals aswell as desert animals, two categories the collared peccary would shine in.
There are more then one factor why an animal deserves to be in the game and imo taxa is by far the least important, its about what new stuff animals bring to the table.
Thats also why i somewhat would agree on the caracal over the sandcat, but not because of the caracal but because the niche of the sandcat is allready somewhat filled by the fennek fox.
Their enclosures would be interchangeable as they fill the same niche that needs less of a stacking then for example ungulates do
 

avietar

avietar
I think the

Dromedary
Wild boar
Indian crested porcupine
Sand cat
Caracal
Hamadryas baboon

Are likely animals we could get.
Other possible additions may be the onager and striped hyena and rock hyrax.

I think the Arabian oryx is unlikely due to the scimitar horned oryx and gemsbok already in game, sand gazelle due to springbok and Thomson gazelle, Eurasian otter due to ASCO and giant otter, Syrian brown bear due to Himalaya bb and grizzly, Nubian ibex due to the Alpine, Arab wolf due to the mess that is the timber wolf...
 

avietar

avietar
Also, if we get animals that focus on the middle east, we should 100% get a sand cat instead of the caracal.

Caracals are not true desert cats and live all over Africa and a little in the middle east. Sand cats live mainly in the middle east and are true desert dwellers. Plus the sand cat would be very different from all the other cats in game. The caracal is very close to the lynx in model, and has habitat requirements similar to already existing African cats.
 

NZFanatic

NZFanatic
I don't think the sand cat is very likely. It doesn't have a wide appeal. Caracal is definitely the likely inclusion; it's popular and it can be made from an existing rig (the Eurasian lynx).
 

becks474

B
I am defintely Team Caracal. As NZFanatic already mentioned they are kind if easy to make and are the most popular cat species within the wishlist. And the babies are so adorable cute. I really would like to See them. Nothing against thr Sand cat but the Caracal is definitive my choice for a further cat.
 

becks474

B
yoav_r said:
It's not as famous, but it is a very cute small cat. There would be no problem to market it.
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In case of cats we got the most known species and I agree that it probably does not matter for the normal player if we get a Sand cat or the Caracal. But within the meta wishlist the result between both is very clearly. In general a Middle East pack is very appealing to me and I think it is also for the normal player but to be honest I unfortunately do not believe in it happening
 

wanderoo

W
becks474 said:
In case of cats we got the most known species and I agree that it probably does not matter for the normal player if we get a Sand cat or the Caracal. But within the meta wishlist the result between both is very clearly. In general a Middle East pack is very appealing to me and I think it is also for the normal player but to be honest I unfortunately do not believe in it happening
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IMO the one big advantage of the caracal is its versatility. Caracals go well - best, even - in African savannah sections, where they'd be the first and only small cat species. They're good for kopje-themed areas with aardvark, meerkat, etc. They would be one of the best animals to go with the North Africa build set due to their importance in that region. Of course, major rep for the Middle East: both the more hot regions as well as subtropical/temperate areas extending into Anatolia and Central Asia. And they're also found in India, giving that region some needed rep and a new niche (small, dry weather mammal) while also being one of the most appropriate animals for the build set (which is reminiscent of Rajasthan in western India rather than the northeastern region where most of our India natives are).

The sand cat is surely more morphologically unique for the game but I agree with those who have mentioned that zoos tend to exhibit them similarly to fennec foxes. That could be seen as a benefit - something to do in sections with fennec - but the caracal still fits that kind of an area as well.

avietar said:
Also, if we get animals that focus on the middle east, we should 100% get a sand cat instead of the caracal.

Caracals are not true desert cats and live all over Africa and a little in the middle east. Sand cats live mainly in the middle east and are true desert dwellers. Plus the sand cat would be very different from all the other cats in game. The caracal is very close to the lynx in model, and has habitat requirements similar to already existing African cats.
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Does it have to be a true desert cat to be in a Middle East pack? I agree on all the other points but I find its versatility to be a positive, considering there aren't likely an unlimited number of slots in the roster's future. Sure, caracals are Sub-Saharan Africa > Middle East > North Africa > India > Central Asia in that order, but I don't think that should disqualify animals. Most of the Middle East's most popular species are found in or even more associated with another region of Afro-Eurasia. I think that's the massive advantage of the Middle East and a poetic tribute to its existence as the cross-routes of the Old World. With the cross-route king (dromedary camel) as its headliner, no less.
 
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sympatrick

S
I think some of the animals in the Middle East, like the Indian crested porcupine is a golden opportunity to get some of the most wanted animals by the community. Like almost everyone wants a crested porcupine and considering the two literally look identical, I see no advantage of getting African over Indian at this point. Meanwhile getting Indian over African does have a huge advantage and that is more Middle Eastern and Indian representation.

Just realized there's more than one advantage. I'm reading that Indian crested porcupines are much more common in zoos, at least in Europe.
 
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NZFanatic

NZFanatic
sympatrick said:
I see no advantage of getting African over Indian at this point.
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Just speaking for myself, but I'd still prefer the African. I don't like playing make-believe with the animal species and I'd rather have the porcupine to mix with my meerkats, which is a very common combination in real zoos, than have one that would have to be exhibited by itself.
 

Chuditch

Chuditch
Personally all of the crested porcupine species are so similar that I don't really mind which species we get. Optimally for me it'd be Cape porcupine as that's the only one currently kept in Australia - and also most commonly kept species in New Zealand, the UK and the US from what I can gather - but I'm comfortable using different species/subspecies as substitutes as long as they look almost identical.

Cape porcupines are often mislabelled as African crested porcupines in zoos anyway (as they are at my only local zoo that keeps them, Monarto) so using them as a substitute wouldn't even be entirely immersion breaking lol.
 

yoav_r

yoav_r
NZFanatic said:
Just speaking for myself, but I'd still prefer the African. I don't like playing make-believe with the animal species and I'd rather have the porcupine to mix with my meerkats, which is a very common combination in real zoos, than have one that would have to be exhibited by itself.
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I'mma be honest snd controversial, I believe they are likely the same species.

Them being consudered different species goes back to the 1700s, when species were arbitrarily assigned by geography and scientists' ego. That's how we ended up with like 12 tiger subspecies.

This is being remedied in recent years through genetic research giving a clearer picture of species split, like how now there are only considered to be 2 tiger subspecies (mainland and islands).


The Indian crested porcupine and crested porcupine only split geographically ~5000 years ago when the Sinai became a desert, and they continued on living in nearly the same environments. I seriously doubt the had managed to speciate in such a short time with no unique evolutionary pressure. Same goes for the cape porcupine.

Considering they look identical, and haven't been examined in modern time to my knowledge, I heavily suspect they are the same species.
 
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wanderoo

W
Interesting point on similarities within the three. It even seems like quite a few European zoos mix meerkats with Indian crested porcupines (see first link - PDF from zoolex - here)? Which isn't that outlandish when you consider that meerkats and African crested porcupines don't seem to share any range either. Meerkats only naturally occur with Cape porcupines. So all one big happy spiny mess of a family (or subgenus), at least in the zoo world?
 
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