The Problem with Game Balance

[Sup3rfluiD]

the time commitment is greatly reduced

I understand this angle but for me it has a different context.
I don't want this game to end. Time , commitment, accrual, experience, credits;
They're all just eventual elements of a game with a 10yr scope.
I'm in no hurry to rush off to other titles so there was never an impulsion to measure progress.

Now it's all easy so we self impose through role play impediments like Ironman Open, pirates etc.

 

[Feros-da-Grundig]

I understand this angle but for me it has a different context.
I don't want this game to end. Time , commitment, accrual, experience, credits;
They're all just eventual elements of a game with a 10yr scope.
I'm in no hurry to rush off to other titles so there was never an impulsion to measure progress.

Now it's all easy so we self impose through role play impediments like Ironman Open, pirates etc.

It gets lost in the noise but I truly do believe in - play ones own way.

I just also believe in open.

I consider your posts generally of the highest caliber.

 

[Sup3rfluiD]

It gets lost in the noise but I truly do believe in - play ones own way.

I just also believe in open.

I consider your posts generally of the highest caliber.

Thank you.
I really only ever come to the forum when I can't play.
I sh*tepost a bit when it's funny; but I often at least try to make some sense to *Balance* the ledger. See what I did there...

On your first point I don't think it's lost as often as you think.
I certainly had you pegged as fairly reasonable .but your a PvP squeaky wheel.
The motivated and outspoken objectors are always going to want hose you, or burn you down.
That's cool to, if it's funny.
For me the single biggest disappointment with this whole game happened on the first day.
I realised the galaxy had been divided first by platform then by mode.

I always wanted two Pve modes. Stand alone Solo. And player vs everything.
Just remove the hollow ship signal and jog on.

 

[besieger]

Funny... the PVP community have been calling for game balance for years, welcome to the club folks. At least now the PVE and PVP community agrees on something

 

[Mohrgan]

Funny... the PVP community have been calling for game balance for years, welcome to the club folks. At least now the PVE and PVP community agrees on something

I don't think there is much agreement on this subject. You should read back more before you post.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Repped, but I disagree. I was fine just playing Elite Dangerous. I rather enjoyed that game!
I'm in my middle years Clifra, my time is limited and valuable to me. I enjoy frittering it away playing toy spaceships, it's fun and a welcome distraction from my real life, which is filled with stress, monotony and a modicum of actual danger.
Engineering is a huge waste of my time. It doesn't get me anything I didn't have before- once my go fasts are engineered, they will once again be able to outrun gankers and NPCs, once my fighters and warships are engineered they'll be equal to gankers and NPCs, no matter how much my traders are engineered they'll still be utterly useless against gankers and NPCs! [haha]
The issue is I'm wasting ridiculous amounts of game time on dull, repetitive, boring tasks, just to improve a select few of my fleet back up to a standard that's nowhere near as good as they were before engineering, relative to the opposition I usually face.
This is not fun, it does not distract me from my dull and boring life, it adds considerably to the dullness, tedium and boredom I struggle against.
Read the OP. Darth's right. I'm at the stage I'm actively avoiding other players because I happen to know where those 'limited amount of times and places' are. I don't fancy becoming a victim of someone else's 'emergent content' because my ship is utterly outclassed by their murderwagon.

You really haven't thought it through, Clifra. I'm one less PvP opportunity for you in those very limited time spaces, precisely because engineering is such a colossal pita. If I'm not alone, then your beloved engineering is killing PvP. It might be hurting the broader game as well...

I am not trying to disparage anyones game play. Also it may be that I play on XBox and not PC but the only place I have ever encountered any considerable Ganking is in CGs where everyone knows that is going to happens. I have visited many Engineer sites and only been attacked once. But that is "my experience" I cannot speak to anyone elses.

I also respect your right to "play the way you want" and if that means you do not want to grind for Engineer mats then that is fine.

All I am saying is it bothers me when people come on these boards and want to fundimentally change the game to address a problem that IMO is not really that serious a problem. We all know where the jerks are going to be, if you don't want to be bothered by them there are multiple ways to prevent it. The DW2 folks advertised where they were going and where they would be. Did they really not think they were going to be attacked by the "PVPers". You are right, you know wher ethey are so oyu avoind those places, that is what you do if your not seeking PVO, it is that simple.

My other point was that Engineering is far less of a grind than it was when it ws 1st released. That is a fact. No one of forcing anyone to engineer.

Lastly, I am not a PVPer, not in the least. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see good PVP in this game but is is totally unbalanced and it will never be anywhere near balanced. (IMO) I don't look for it but I won't run from it either.

 

[Clifra Jones]

Except, if Engineering was part of the core game, and not Horizons as a separate purchase, you'd have a point. You don't.

That's why Engineers is considered arguably "Pay To Win" as a feature. For those who bought the base game and have no interest in planetary landings, etc., it's a valid point. Doesn't matter how "cheap" it is or isn't, it's purely a matter of fact.

If one plays in Open with those who have engineered ships they're at a tremendous disadvantage if they haven't bought Horizons.

(I personally have both, but I understand the validity of the argument, too)

Well, I don't understand the argument.

Horizons is an offered game enhancement that was offered to the players as a paid enhancement. Not a huge price but yes a price. Also, no one is foreced to buy this enhancement to keep playing the game, unlike other games out there. But, for someone who opts to not purchase Horizons to say that they are "put to a disadvantage because of that choice" is just a straw man argument. They chose, they weren nt forced into the position. They have options, Solo, PG whatever. or just stay away from the places where other player are known to be.

It is not "Pay to Win", ED is not a PVP Battle Royal game, that is not the focus of the game in any way. It is just another "part" of the game.

PVP is not the "Plague on this Game" that some on these boards make it out to be, not in the least.

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

Do any of these pictures express your view of E: D's balance? Specifically, the balance between PvE'ers and PvP'ers, not the CMDR-NPC balance (although there is a knock on effect here too), or PvP-PvP ship balance.

A) - View attachment 122730 B) - View attachment 122731 C) - View attachment 122732



FDev decided early on that E: D would be a game of two halves. Those that wanted to engage in digitally simulated combat, could. While those that didn't want to, wouldn't have to. This choice seemingly caters to a wide range of playstyles, while leaving every door open for everyone to experience everything the game has to offer. A smart move... except instead of an open and accessible platform, what we have is two very strident camps that only engage in activities outside of their preferred sphere, in order to achieve an objective that was rendered otherwise meaningless for a given player by the separation, not inclusion, of playstyles. FDev's decision broke the game in a number of ways...

Firstly, my own personal bug-bear comes in two parts...

1) Protected BGS/PP manipulation leaves some 'Open Only' CMDRs (amongst whom I include myself) at a higher risk than others whilst being engaged in 'shaping the galaxy' and the narrative.

This is a choice made by CMDRs, as no doubt will be pointed out. The point though, is that this isn't balanced gameplay. It is unbalanced by design, deliberately broken by its creators and a skewed risk:reward ratio is the result.

2) PvP'ers can creep around after a particularly vicious crime spree, without the danger of becoming the content of the 'emergent' gameplay that they, we, praise so highly.

Contextual PvP and effective C&P are rendered meaningless in this situation. Regardless of the local regime, one can murder and pirate without recourse to 'justice' for the victim. Whilst at their most vulnerable, floating around in T9's grinding CR, Naval Rank and Engineer Mats, 'Wanted' CMDR's are immune to justice.

Whilst the current state of affairs continues, the only effective Law & Order policy for those CMDRs would be an NPC force so powerful that all crimes are in effect punished immediately and with a rebuy screen. This isn't hyperbole, I'd argue its not much of an exaggeration at all. You can't balance a broken scale.



Secondly and no less importantly, PvE'ers run into several problems, including but not limited to....

A desire to avoid PvP related ship-building optimisations (for whatever reason) leaves them with a choice of playing alone or with a limited number of trusted invitees (a flawed system in itself as we've seen), cut off from the rest of even their own PvE community. The only alternative to this is to play in Open and to be so far outmatched by their PvP'ing counterparts that progress of any kind becomes impossible.

Let me state this: as a PvP'er who only plays in Open (exceptions for when I find an NPC hogging my docking bay) as a Pirate, and who engages in 'full-risk' BGS and PP interaction, I believe both sides of these issues are equally deserving of attention. Regardless of your playstyle or the epithets used to describe it (psychopath/carebear), your playstyle is not wrong. This is not your fault!

What I will suggest is your fault however, are the requests for FDev to fix C&P, to rebalance Engineers or to Make Exploration Great Again!, or any other 'balancing' quest.

FDev can't do these things because FDev decided that the root cause of most of this game's problems, would be it's main selling point, "your way".

The only 'fix' possible for E: D's most glaring issues is to repackage the game as two games. This could be done in one of the upcoming paid updates.
The fix is not an OpenOnlyPowerPlay mode, this is a full-fat & fully-featured PvPMode, next to a totally separate full-fat & fully-featured PvEMode.

What we are looking for, is something more like this:

View attachment 122733


Credits: Pictures were taken from the web, and relevant credit should go to their respective rights holders. Google Image search will tell who that is, I've no idea and even less interest. I'm responsible solely for the addition of text, created at great expense using MS Paint's 'Text' feature. Superb, isn't it?

Who is this "we" you speak about? I don't recall agreeing to let you speak for me.

I say Open Only and separate saves.

 

[Bill Clement]

I am not trying to disparage anyones game play. Also it may be that I play on XBox and not PC but the only place I have ever encountered any considerable Ganking is in CGs where everyone knows that is going to happens. I have visited many Engineer sites and only been attacked once. But that is "my experience" I cannot speak to anyone elses.

I also respect your right to "play the way you want" and if that means you do not want to grind for Engineer mats then that is fine.

All I am saying is it bothers me when people come on these boards and want to fundimentally change the game to address a problem that IMO is not really that serious a problem. We all know where the jerks are going to be, if you don't want to be bothered by them there are multiple ways to prevent it. The DW2 folks advertised where they were going and where they would be. Did they really not think they were going to be attacked by the "PVPers". You are right, you know wher ethey are so oyu avoind those places, that is what you do if your not seeking PVO, it is that simple.

My other point was that Engineering is far less of a grind than it was when it ws 1st released. That is a fact. No one of forcing anyone to engineer.

Lastly, I am not a PVPer, not in the least. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see good PVP in this game but is is totally unbalanced and it will never be anywhere near balanced. (IMO) I don't look for it but I won't run from it either.

I'm not engineering by choice, Clifra. I'm being forced into it. If I don't engineer my ships I either can't play in open, or have to avoid human contact if I do (which amounts to the same thing). I lose an entire game mode if I don't grind away like a demented hamster trying to bite through a metal cage! Even if I play solo I still have to face NPCs balanced against the expectation that I'll be flying an engineered ship. Engineering is not optional any more. Players who don't have engineering are forced to run from every encounter. That's hardly 'blazing your own trail', more following the well trodden steps of Brave Sir Robin!

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for that egregious and unasked for situation to be resolved by FD. Yes it would involve a fundamental game change, but it would avoid sickening people of an activity they used to love.

There are various ways to improve engineering without taking away from the enjoyment of players who like the results. Much less material grinding, much fewer material types, much better exchange rates in a single material trader located much more conveniently, the list goes on. There are many other suggestions I could make, but the main one is to reduce the insane amount of activity required to enable engineering to take place.

 

[Riverside]

I'm not engineering by choice, Clifra. I'm being forced into it. If I don't engineer my ships I either can't play in open, or have to avoid human contact if I do (which amounts to the same thing). I lose an entire game mode if I don't grind away like a demented hamster trying to bite through a metal cage! Even if I play solo I still have to face NPCs balanced against the expectation that I'll be flying an engineered ship. Engineering is not optional any more. Players who don't have engineering are forced to run from every encounter. That's hardly 'blazing your own trail', more following the well trodden steps of Brave Sir Robin!

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for that egregious and unasked for situation to be resolved by FD. Yes it would involve a fundamental game change, but it would avoid sickening people of an activity they used to love.

There are various ways to improve engineering without taking away from the enjoyment of players who like the results. Much less material grinding, much fewer material types, much better exchange rates in a single material trader located much more conveniently, the list goes on. There are many other suggestions I could make, but the main one is to reduce the insane amount of activity required to enable engineering to take place.

To be fair the 3.0 changes did go a long way in the direction you are asking for. I think you make a good point from the perspective of a player effectively starting from zero though. I haven't tried but Colonia may be a good place to start, with fewer engineers to unlock lots of mods.

I quite like engineering my ships, but it did knock freeform PvP for six and made it much less accessible to the general player.

 

[Firebeard]

Iove these "discussions" I play open 90% of the time unless I really just want to focus on a task. I rarely make more than 3-5 mill a day because I play a couple of hours - you know what I do if a player interdicts me? Very rare I know - I run I run screaming like a little girl unless I have nothing to lose.

If I'm in an empty ship with no missions pending I'll have a go - it's not like the rebuy is unobtainable.