I like this muchly.
The problem with human piracy - A traders perspective
- Thread starter Iskariot
- Start date
I like this muchly.
Hello Commander Iskariot!
Interesting read, though I don't agree with all of your assumptions:
A human pirate that attacks a human trader for their cargo is not what I would determine as griefing – subjective though that term obviously is – as I would reserve it for actions that target human players *repetitively* and for *no gain* other than the discomfort caused. If not, then you would need to classify bounty hunting as griefing, as well as any other adversarial activity where the choice of targets includes both humans and AIs. At this point, you might start to question exactly what you are expecting to get from the multiplayer aspect of the game.
Of course, others might and can disagree with my definition, but it seems like a reasonable standpoint for a game that at its core, features adversarial game play.
This is important to state, because although I don’t disagree with your suggestion that the perception of such activities by the target might be one of griefing (due to the lack of symmetry in player goals), I can assert that they might need to reconsider the validity of their viewpoint.
I think this will be an evolving debate as we get closer to full functionality with regards to how the law and other systems work in the game (for example, a common theme currently running in this debate is the perception that pirates have little to lose and much to gain - though it depends who you ask
).
Interesting read, though I don't agree with all of your assumptions:
A human pirate that attacks a human trader for their cargo is not what I would determine as griefing – subjective though that term obviously is – as I would reserve it for actions that target human players *repetitively* and for *no gain* other than the discomfort caused. If not, then you would need to classify bounty hunting as griefing, as well as any other adversarial activity where the choice of targets includes both humans and AIs. At this point, you might start to question exactly what you are expecting to get from the multiplayer aspect of the game.
Of course, others might and can disagree with my definition, but it seems like a reasonable standpoint for a game that at its core, features adversarial game play.
This is important to state, because although I don’t disagree with your suggestion that the perception of such activities by the target might be one of griefing (due to the lack of symmetry in player goals), I can assert that they might need to reconsider the validity of their viewpoint.
I think this will be an evolving debate as we get closer to full functionality with regards to how the law and other systems work in the game (for example, a common theme currently running in this debate is the perception that pirates have little to lose and much to gain - though it depends who you ask
).
I think this will be an evolving debate as we get closer to full functionality with regards to how the law and other systems work in the game (for example, a common theme currently running in this debate is the perception that pirates have little to lose and much to gain - though it depends who you ask
I certainly feel that pirates have it far too easy if caught. The loss to a captured pirate, a criminal, should be very severe. Severe enough to keep the number of player pirates to a low ratio of traders/pirates. Back to basics would be the best deterrent.
Traders should probably have some influence over how harsh the punishment is for piracy. After all, the traders are law abiding citizens, paying taxes, and in the democracies are voting for the government. Said governments are likely to listen to their tax paying electorate. They certainly wouldn't be listening to the pirates.
Player vs Player Piracy isn't necessary in any MMO game, Iskariot, but it does make it far more rewarding and realistic, as Commander Sam so correctly pointed out in describing the risk/reward system and the repercussions of the game turning into a truck-driver-in-space sim.
As a Pirate myself, I have no interest in causing you any psychological trauma or making you feel victimised; give me my hard-earned (hah) lootz and move on, or I'll shoot down your drives, your cargo hatch then take your goodies and let you move on. It's against my interest to kill you, take more than I can fill my bays with or take more from you than you can afford; you'll stop using the space lanes that form my hunting grounds or give up on trading altogether. I'm also trying to do what I can to "earn a buck"; unlike you I don't have the patience to fly to and fro between stations accruing wealth and so play to my strengths and use piracy as my means because I'm nae bad with a laser or multicannon. If I want to fight other players in space, I'll pitch up at a Federation system, fly my Empire flag and let loose, or select an opposing Faction in a conflict scenario. In my time I've been a trader, a bounty hunter and a pirate; I don't define my role as that of only a pirate, and doubt many who pirate do. ED, as has previously been mentioned, will likely make player pirate encounters more a rarity; I certainly look forward to making trade-runs in pirate-infested areas with a hardcore crew of hard-hitting homies on my wings as backup (provided doing so is profitable to me). As an erstwhile lone trader I also look forward to sneaking into systems and making a mad dash to safety to offload my commodities. As a pirate, I look forward to chatting to clan-mates - my fellow Brother and Sisters of The Black Hand - while we lurk in wait of passing traders, knowing we may visit destruction on ourselves doing so; without the risk to ourselves, again it becomes Space Trucker Sim 2014; I wouldn't bother pirating come end-game if it was 100% safe; the stolen cargo is, if anything, only a byproduct of the fun. I know everyone isn't an adrenaline junkie like me, but as Sam suggested, the fun is all in risk/reward, and for me the reward is more purely the challenge. I would be gutted if there were no repercussions to my piracy; I want bounty hunters to come after me and for battles to ensue. I'll live and breathe for battles that have more meaning - justice / profit / revenge / retribution - as opposed to "softer" battles in optional pvp-enabled areas / instances; almost meaningless as it lacks the personal touch. AI doesn't get the adrenaline going nearly so much as PCs do. Ultimately, if adrenaline isn't your thing then perhaps single player mode or a game where "Dangerous" isn't in the title and where Galactic ranking is based on how many people you've killed would suit you better.
On a side-note, (my intent isn't to discuss AI vs Player pirates here, as the former can always be reprogrammed to do wonderful things), as things stand AI pirates are mindless and brutal; they'll kill you for your cargo, irrespective of whether or not you've stuffed your bays with your entire earnings to maximise your profit run, and they won't be satisfied by you jettisoning more Progenitor Cells than their bays can even hold.
As a Pirate myself, I have no interest in causing you any psychological trauma or making you feel victimised; give me my hard-earned (hah) lootz and move on, or I'll shoot down your drives, your cargo hatch then take your goodies and let you move on. It's against my interest to kill you, take more than I can fill my bays with or take more from you than you can afford; you'll stop using the space lanes that form my hunting grounds or give up on trading altogether. I'm also trying to do what I can to "earn a buck"; unlike you I don't have the patience to fly to and fro between stations accruing wealth and so play to my strengths and use piracy as my means because I'm nae bad with a laser or multicannon. If I want to fight other players in space, I'll pitch up at a Federation system, fly my Empire flag and let loose, or select an opposing Faction in a conflict scenario. In my time I've been a trader, a bounty hunter and a pirate; I don't define my role as that of only a pirate, and doubt many who pirate do. ED, as has previously been mentioned, will likely make player pirate encounters more a rarity; I certainly look forward to making trade-runs in pirate-infested areas with a hardcore crew of hard-hitting homies on my wings as backup (provided doing so is profitable to me). As an erstwhile lone trader I also look forward to sneaking into systems and making a mad dash to safety to offload my commodities. As a pirate, I look forward to chatting to clan-mates - my fellow Brother and Sisters of The Black Hand - while we lurk in wait of passing traders, knowing we may visit destruction on ourselves doing so; without the risk to ourselves, again it becomes Space Trucker Sim 2014; I wouldn't bother pirating come end-game if it was 100% safe; the stolen cargo is, if anything, only a byproduct of the fun. I know everyone isn't an adrenaline junkie like me, but as Sam suggested, the fun is all in risk/reward, and for me the reward is more purely the challenge. I would be gutted if there were no repercussions to my piracy; I want bounty hunters to come after me and for battles to ensue. I'll live and breathe for battles that have more meaning - justice / profit / revenge / retribution - as opposed to "softer" battles in optional pvp-enabled areas / instances; almost meaningless as it lacks the personal touch. AI doesn't get the adrenaline going nearly so much as PCs do. Ultimately, if adrenaline isn't your thing then perhaps single player mode or a game where "Dangerous" isn't in the title and where Galactic ranking is based on how many people you've killed would suit you better.
On a side-note, (my intent isn't to discuss AI vs Player pirates here, as the former can always be reprogrammed to do wonderful things), as things stand AI pirates are mindless and brutal; they'll kill you for your cargo, irrespective of whether or not you've stuffed your bays with your entire earnings to maximise your profit run, and they won't be satisfied by you jettisoning more Progenitor Cells than their bays can even hold.
True, pVp off flag please.
Isn't that how real piracy is though? The risk to a real pirate is quite often their life. You can't really expect that criminal activity should be punished based on your income. In fact your income would probably be lost on top of any punishment.
Too many pirates would spoil the game anyway. Piracy should really only be atractive to the very few, and for their own sake, the most skilled.
Hello Commander dasuke!
It's worth noting that even now, some AI pirates *can* be sated by dropping cargo: they have an internal credit value they are looking to clear, based on a few different factors, such as their perceived "strength" of the target ship.
Once they've had their fill they'll tend to make their escape.
Also, careful talking smack about truck driver games - I personally love Euro Truck Simulator 2!
Hello Commander JKF!
There are a series of tweaks and additions to the crime system that will make piracy more risky, but we want to ensure that players who choose to walk a darker path don't get squeezed out of the fun market.
It's worth noting that even now, some AI pirates *can* be sated by dropping cargo: they have an internal credit value they are looking to clear, based on a few different factors, such as their perceived "strength" of the target ship.
Once they've had their fill they'll tend to make their escape.
Also, careful talking smack about truck driver games - I personally love Euro Truck Simulator 2!
Hello Commander JKF!
There are a series of tweaks and additions to the crime system that will make piracy more risky, but we want to ensure that players who choose to walk a darker path don't get squeezed out of the fun market.
I don't think there is any "psychological problem" - humanity will not continue to develop, evolve and adapt into stronger, faster and smarter beings for their given environment without there being active competition. We are programmed to try to out-compete our fellow humans, and the feelings of success / accomplishment in this endeavour can be so rewarding and positively reinforcing for some that it becomes habitual. PvP piracy, I suspect, carries a lot of this concept; that you're out-foxing (and possibly having to out-gun / out-class) your opponents and coming out on top; gaining more for doing less; being a more "effective" human in its given environment. Without this drive, humans would stagnate / degenerate; it's not a psychological problem; it's the human condition.
All Pirates are not killers...
+1
Just because some Pirates might kill you, doesn't make all Pirates killers.
Also consider the other 'Heroic' roles of those who might like to actually engage in a bit of Pirate-hunting, those damn fools.
Besides which, it's likely only those lucky enough to have the choice of starting with a fairly beefed up Cobra MkIII are going to jump in to the shooting game right away. Sadly, most people will be doing trade runs for a while before they turn to violence and intimidation for profit, which feels like it'll level out the field since trader Joe will have had time to earn money to buy shields, escorts and bigger guns on those big, fat, juicy cows....nom nom nom.
+1
Just because some Pirates might kill you, doesn't make all Pirates killers.
Also consider the other 'Heroic' roles of those who might like to actually engage in a bit of Pirate-hunting, those damn fools.
Besides which, it's likely only those lucky enough to have the choice of starting with a fairly beefed up Cobra MkIII are going to jump in to the shooting game right away. Sadly, most people will be doing trade runs for a while before they turn to violence and intimidation for profit, which feels like it'll level out the field since trader Joe will have had time to earn money to buy shields, escorts and bigger guns on those big, fat, juicy cows....nom nom nom.
I did not know that! That's cool to see; gj Team FD!
Also, careful talking smack about truck driver games - I personally love Euro Truck Simulator 2!
Don't get me wrong; car, truck and motorcycle engines get me excited, as does grinding corners (well, at least with the first and last vehicles cited), though I'm not sure about going to and fro between points of trade! Whatever floats your boat though
That's good to hear Sandro. I do think penalties should be adjusted throughout the game's lifespan to achieve a working proportion of pirates. After all, we do need criminals otherwise what would all those police officers do
And if things seem a little severe for pirates at some point, you could always bow to the penal reformers, offer a general amnesty, then reduce the penalties slightly
Isn't that almost like a text-book definition of psycopathy? If you think about, AI pirates exist solely to make players lives more difficult (they have no need of loot and therefore no motive).
Unless you're willing to grant sentience to the AI code in Elite Dangerous, Human players are the only ones who can engage in piracy with any *real* reason to do so.
In other words, by the logic in your post, all AI pirates are griefers.
Using that slipery definition of griefing (as Sandro pointed out) it is impossible to make a rational argument against player pirates. The only good definition is that of "bullying and harassment".
Yes, and co-operation instead of competition has been emphasised as EDs focus.
You are saying that at its core this is an adversarial or pVp game. This seems to be a direct contradiction to the co-operative game play which has been emphasised.
You may want to reconsider your viewpoint, as it's contrary to the originally stated game philosophy.
Personally, given this dichotomy of perspective I'd change your role spec to lead of pVp content.
Rusty-man...
And as a further insight to the psyche of a Pirate...just this one though, starting off as Iron-man in the all group, means there is a significant amount to lose on a very steep sliding scale the longer one survives.
Could be that once dead in Iron-man, Pirating isn't as tense and thus, looses some of it's appeal.
And as a further insight to the psyche of a Pirate...just this one though, starting off as Iron-man in the all group, means there is a significant amount to lose on a very steep sliding scale the longer one survives.
Could be that once dead in Iron-man, Pirating isn't as tense and thus, looses some of it's appeal.
Another poster who really don't grasp how game will work, just using examples from old days.
Kinda tired of these threads actually.
Kinda tired of these threads actually.
Co-op and PvP are not mutually exclusive. They can be done at different times or simultaneously with different players. E.g. helping a friend (co-op) in battle against human opponents (PvP).
I think you're being too narrow in your conception of the game.
Logically though, AI pirates are not sentient and calling them griefers is just silly.
I get more than a whiff of placeholderness about this implementation, but for what it's worth find AI a bit boring when the optimal strategy is to tiptoe towards the number it's looking for, waiting each time to see if you've reached the magic value. Speaking as someone with much to lose from the following suggestion, it would be nice if e.g. the credit value increased over time, so that a short path filled with inaccurate guesses offered less resistance than a long cautious one.
Hello Iskariot
I find this passage quite interesting.
Why have you suggested that pirates will only single out human traders ?
As far as I am concerned, NPC or PC, you're all fair game - as long as you don't have a bounty on your head (implying you're a fellow pirate) then I will stand and deliver everything that moves. That fact remains of course that the majority of my prey will be NPCs, but being human does not offer up any differences other than the task maybe a little trickier.