The problem with the new C&P improvements

[NeilF]

Until the Feds actually start switching off Corvettes that shoot at them, the whole thing is unrealistic.

LOL! That made me chuckle!

 

[NeilF]

Players role-playing as bad-guys need to be able to operate without having their game spoiled, just as players playing good-guys need the same. Hit the people who do nothing but cheat/exploit or try to spoil others fun by any means, in-game consequences, account resets to sidewinder, shadow bans or full perma bans I'd support all or any of them.

Understood, but it's odd how their need to role play seems to always result in them picking on poorly defended empty squares in the middle of no where?

Might I make a prediction? When the new Thargoid orientated weapons come out, which are less effective against human ships, and CMDRs head of to system X in the middle of no where to take part in super exciting rebadged CZ zones to fight Thargoids... There will be groups of CMDRs there waiting for them RPG'ing, "Save the Thargoids"... But let's not pretend we don't know the real reasons/thinking behind it though!

But punishing people who are simply playing as pirates for being pirates just helps the players the game would be better without to gather more salt.

And here you've jumped into strawman territory.

The proposal of a C&P (karma) mechanic applied for the illegal destruction of CMDRs and NPC, in all system types, has no affect on piracy. It only has an affect on your choice to fail at piracy and then decide to destroy your victim.

Under the proposal (see #696 for example), you could pirate ships all day long and the C&P (karma) system wouldn't register a thing. Destroy a couple of your victims who fight back? And that would be a small enough ripple that you still wouldn't incur any penalties.

But destroy victim after victim after victim? You'll now get noticed and start getting ramping penalties?

Now in all seriousness? What's unrealistic or unfair about that?

 

[Stigbob]

Understood, but it's odd how their need to role play seems to always result in them picking on poorly defended empty squares in the middle of no where?

Might I make a prediction? When the new Thargoid orientated weapons come out, which are less effective against human ships, and CMDRs head of to system X in the middle of no where to take part in super exciting rebadged CZ zones to fight Thargoids... There will be groups of CMDRs there waiting for them RPG'ing, "Save the Thargoids"... But let's not pretend we don't know the real reasons/thinking behind it though!

It's not always about ganking wings the theoretical karma system is intended to deal with that, a sensible pirate will of course always go after the weakest most lucrative target.

And here you've jumped into strawman territory.

No.

The proposal of a C&P (karma) mechanic applied for the illegal destruction of CMDRs and NPC, in all system types, has no affect on piracy. It only has an affect on your choice to fail at piracy and then decide to destroy your victim.

Under the proposal (see #696 for example), you could pirate ships all day long and the C&P (karma) system wouldn't register a thing. Destroy a couple of your victims who fight back? And that would be a small enough ripple that you still wouldn't incur any penalties.

But destroy victim after victim after victim? You'll now get noticed and start getting ramping penalties?

Now in all seriousness? What's unrealistic or unfair about that?

In a game where pirates can't kill for fear of tipping the scale and being treated just like lulzkillers nobody will ever drop cargo.

 

[NeilF]

It's not always about ganking wings the theoretical karma system is intended to deal with that

No, it's intended to deal will all toxic unwanted gameplay surely? And a significant amuont is strangely happening in Anarchy systems where, (a) there's currently not the slightest negative outcome no matter how psychotic and toxic your activity, (b) where a lot of locations are being placed enticing exploration ships out there to then be destroyed in just a few seconds at the end of engineered weapons in truth for no in game purpose or reason.

a sensible pirate will of course always go after the weakest most lucrative target.

You do realise it's not the goal of pirates to destroy their victims? That's probably bad for business and bad for their bottom line.

What if a pick pocket in London rather than snaching hand bags and running off, instead just slit his victims throats? How is that going to end up? Better or worse for him?

In a game where pirates can't kill for fear of tipping the scale and being treated just like lulzkillers nobody will ever drop cargo.

Better pirating in a game where no one plays in OPEN?

When I've pirated I've had a great time, destroying less CMDRs than fingers on my right (& coincidentally left) hand!

Piracy as it stands it vapid and has poor mechanics, recently made even worse IMHO:-
- Security forces turn up like clockwork giving the impress of a mechanic in action than a realistic simulation.
- Pirates have no reputation or skill to achieve and work towards.
- Hatch breakers are now worse than ever requiring no skill (why not require at least shields to be taken down to 1 bar).
- Hatch breakers cannot be scaled to purpose. eg: Try hatch breaking a hauler and a T9. Why can't you scale your equipment for purpose?

But all this aside, piracy should not be a license to act like a psycho. If you are habitually destroying ships, again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

 

[Stigbob]

No, it's intended to deal will all toxic unwanted gameplay surely? And a significant amuont is strangely happening in Anarchy systems where, (a) there's currently not the slightest negative outcome no matter how psychotic and toxic your activity, (b) where a lot of locations are being placed enticing exploration ships out there to then be destroyed in just a few seconds at the end of engineered weapons in truth for no in game purpose or reason.

We've already covered that, it's not always about ganking.

You do realise it's not the goal of pirates to destroy their victims? That's probably bad for business and bad for their bottom line.

Meh.

What if a pick pocket in London rather than snaching hand bags and running off, instead just slit his victims throats? How is that going to end up? Better or worse for him?

London's high security thats an invalid (and extremely silly) comparison.

Better pirating in a game where no one plays in OPEN?

Do as I say or mode X is doomed is as old as the game, it's never been true.

When I've pirated I've had a great time, destroying less CMDRs than fingers on my right (& coincidentally left) hand!

Were you fearful of being labelled and punished as a lulzkiller at the time, and were you in an anarchy.

Piracy as it stands it vapid and has poor mechanics, recently made even worse IMHO:-
- Security forces turn up like clockwork giving the impress of a mechanic in action than a realistic simulation.
- Pirates have no reputation or skill to achieve and work towards.
- Hatch breakers are now worse than ever requiring no skill (why not require at least shields to be taken down to 1 bar).
- Hatch breakers cannot be scaled to purpose. eg: Try hatch breaking a hauler and a T9. Why can't you scale your equipment for purpose?

Yep maybe, but the mechanics of piracy are of no interest to me.

But all this aside, piracy should not be a license to act like a psycho. If you are habitually destroying ships, again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

Nothing outside of anarchies.

 

[NeilF]

We've already covered that, it's not always about ganking.

Good, so you agree with me ganking/griefing does occur. So the question is, does any mechanic employed deal with the behaviour we want to rein in to give a positive outcome, without penalising other activities for a negative outcome.

Meh.

Not one of your most insightful responses.

London's high security thats an invalid (and extremely silly) comparison.

Pick and choose as you like. The premise stands. A thief would not want to regularly destroy the very goods they're trying to steal... Over and over...

More over, given you can be identified would they wish to steal or instead murder/destroy? What will draw more attention...?

Come on... You know the realistic and logical answer. Have the spheres to say it

Do as I say or mode X is doomed is as old as the game, it's never been true.

Wise words... So when you say, "In a game where pirates can't kill for fear of tipping the scale and being treated just like lulzkillers nobody will ever drop cargo," I shouldn't give your doom and gloom any credibility?

Were you fearful of being labelled and punished as a lulzkiller at the time, and were you in an anarchy.

Why didn't I destroy loads of CMDRs while pirating?
1) Because generally it seemed pointless? What's interesting really in a far superior combat ship destroying a trading ship?
2) Because I understood there was another person playing a game the way they wanted to, and destroying wouldn't achieve my goals, and would simply grief them. I could steal cargo via force.

This wasn't always the case. If a CMDR kept on running and ignoring clear instructions and shows of force etc, I would resort to destruction at times. But it was the exception to the rule.

Yep maybe, but the mechanics of piracy are of no interest to me.

So what aspect of PvP does interest you and how do you go about locating it? Please don't say at alien ruins and Thargoid bases?

The problem with ED is there's precious little PvP of any merit or worth... The game does so very little to orchestrate PvP let alone offer interesting PvP. (IMHO)

Nothing outside of anarchies.

That's a statement, not an answer to the question posed, which I'll repeat again - If you are habitually destroying ships (yes even in anarchy systems), again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

 

[CMDR_Elver]

I can't wait for someone to find a CMDR's Cutter in a RES and drift in front of their target it in a shieldless Sidewinder - with crimes on, of course - and then suicide into them at full speed, thereby giving them a full Cutter rebuy next time they die in any ship.

It's a good thing the new karma system isn't at all vulnerable to trolling!

Yeah the new rebuy system does seem to be a little odd but at least a step in the right direction. I.e. increase rebuy for negative activity. Personally I would have PF bounties put on players equal to the cost of the ship + mods + cargo destroyed (or even plus 10% on top of that as an admin charge). Introduce PF reputation, that increase a cmdrs rebuy with negative rep and claim rate, with discounts for PF rank.

 

[NeilF]

Yeah the new rebuy system does seem to be a little odd but at least a step in the right direction. I.e. increase rebuy for negative activity. Personally I would have PF bounties put on players equal to the cost of the ship + mods + cargo destroyed (or even plus 10% on top of that as an admin charge). Introduce PF reputation, that increase a cmdrs rebuy with negative rep and claim rate, with discounts for PF rank.

It does seem a very black and white solution?

And it also doesn't penalise a habit. ie: Seal club one CMDR, or a dozen? The outcome?

But as you say, it's a "direction" at least

 

[Stigbob]

Good, so you agree with me ganking/griefing does occur. So the question is, does any mechanic employed deal with the behaviour we want to rein in to give a positive outcome, without penalising other activities for a negative outcome.

We've already covered that it's not always about ganking. Even if you really really really don't like ganking.

Not one of your most insightful responses.

I gave it all the attention it deserved.

Pick and choose as you like. The premise stands. A thief would not want to regularly destroy the very goods they're trying to steal... Over and over...

More over, given you can be identified would they wish to steal or instead murder/destroy? What will draw more attention...?

Come on... You know the realistic and logical answer. Have the spheres to say it

Realistic and logical compete with sphere's ?.

When you try to compare any behavior in a video game with a terrible real life crime involving murder you hurt your own argument because absolutely nobody takes it seriously.

Wise words... So when you say, "In a game where pirates can't kill for fear of tipping the scale and being treated just like lulzkillers nobody will ever drop cargo," I shouldn't give your doom and gloom any credibility?

I haven't predicted doom I'm predicting people going "Ner ner you can't kill me" and not dropping cargo whilst telling other people to not drop cargo in the forum. Which would be bad for the few genuine pirates that play but hardly qualifies as doom.

Why didn't I destroy loads of CMDRs while pirating?
1) Because generally it seemed pointless? What's interesting really in a far superior combat ship destroying a trading ship?
2) Because I understood there was another person playing a game the way they wanted to, and destroying wouldn't achieve my goals, and would simply grief them. I could steal cargo via force.

So thats a no to my first question, and you've not answered the second.

This wasn't always the case. If a CMDR kept on running and ignoring clear instructions and shows of force etc, I would resort to destruction at times. But it was the exception to the rule.

And how would you react if everyone said "no, you can't kill me the PF will get you" and you got penalized for subsequently blowing them up.

So what aspect of PvP does interest you and how do you go about locating it? Please don't say at alien ruins and Thargoid bases?

My choices have nothing to do with C&P improvements.

The problem with ED is there's precious little PvP of any merit or worth... The game does so very little to orchestrate PvP let alone offer interesting PvP. (IMHO)

PVP is as interesting as you make it.

That's a statement, not an answer to the question posed, which I'll repeat again - If you are habitually destroying ships (yes even in anarchy systems), again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

We've already covered that.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Well let's address anarchy system from two points of view?

Gameplay
Do we want mindless griefing and ganking continuing at any/all locations that pop up? For example, at the first generation ships? Griefers turned up in OPEN to destroy others. And now at the Thargoid bases?

What is this activity achieving? What is gained by groups of engineered combat ships destroying generally exploration ships in one sided destructions in truth simply for the grief it causes due to the ones sided pointlessness of it?

How is it benefitial to the game, for this to be completely ignored?

How is it benefitial to the game, for more and more players, more and more often, to not do activities in OPEN?

To be honest, I can only see this as being an issue if everyone rushes to these places in one go. I havent been to any of these places yet, and If i went now in open I doubt anyone would be there. Why wait around for days on the off chance someone turns up. It still may happen from time to time, but don't all rush there when the discovery has been made and these people that like to grief just won't bother anymore as it will be boring for them, just sitting there waiting.

Game Universe/Lore
Yes, there is no security in anarchy systems. If you are interdicted, no security force will come to help you.

BUT, if a Pilots Federation member is using such a location to simply act as a psychopath, it's not as if information on their behaviour is not going to reach organisation. Is it unrealistic to suppose the PF who have a "zero tolerance policy regarding dishonourable behaviour among its members" would take action against such an individual? For example by putting their own bounty out on the individual, paid no matter where they are found/destroyed? Is it unrealistic that insurance companies not keen on the cost the psychopath is incurring for them wouldn't like action taken against them?

Do we know for sure that this will be the case? That is also assuming the Pilots Federation gets the info and how reliable it is.

Summary
No one is calling for illegal destruction to be impossible. Personally, I just want it held accountable to the extent that if you do it enough (no matter where) you then start incurring penalties, which are significant enough that habitual illegal destruction (of CMDRs and NPCs) starts to get unattractive...

I see this as both a positive outcome for the game, and wholy realistic within the game universe.

It is definatly heading in the right direction, I doubt that it will be perfect first time round and I am sure it will be built upon.

 

[NeilF]

We've already covered that it's not always about ganking. Even if you really really really don't like ganking.

But as I said... You've agree it is about griefing and ganking in part. So, as I said - and you ignored - "...does any mechanic employed deal with the behaviour we want to rein in to give a positive outcome, without penalising other activities for a negative outcome."

Clearly the proposed mechanic should help rein in the toxic activity we're aiming at no?

So what are you doing in the game currently that would be negatively effected by the proposed C&P (karma) mechanic, even applying to anarchy systems?

When you try to compare any behavior in a video game with a terrible real life crime involving murder you hurt your own argument because absolutely nobody takes it seriously.

OK.. I'll simplify it...

Given even in an anarchy system you can be identified, would you wish to steal or instead murder/destroy? Which will draw more attention? Which is going to cost big organisations lots of unwanted expense with your name next to the bills?

So thats a no to my first question, and you've not answered the second.

Bit of a vague question? - "Were you fearful of being labelled and punished as a lulzkiller at the time, and were you in an anarchy."

No, I wasn't the slightest bit concerned how someone else saw me? Punished as a lulzkiller? What even is that? I was prevented from pirating by bounty hunters? I've had to fight off bounty hunters jumping into protect traders?

In anarchy system? I've pirated multiple times where ever that best took me. So I highly suspect I've been in anarchy systems yes? TBH the bounties and system response are of such little concern most of the time... It's not a concern...

And how would you react if everyone said "no, you can't kill me the PF will get you" and you got penalized for subsequently blowing them up.

You seem to have a lot of strong views on piracy given you have no interest in its mechanics?

You seem to think destruction is the only tool for those not willing to simply hand cargo over? What a shallow dull game that would be?

Asking for 20T of cargo, and then if they run hatch break a lot more than that is "a lesson".

Dealing some damage is "a lesson".

Still being able to destroy a particularly frustrating CMDR is "a lesson".

We've already covered that.

I've asked it... You've not answered it, so humour me... - If you are habitually destroying ships (yes even in anarchy systems), again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

So what are you doing in the game currently that would be negatively effected by the proposed C&P (karma) mechanic, even applying to anarchy systems?

^^ You'll notice I've asked this quite a few times now... I'm interesting in your answer...

 

[NeilF]

To be honest, I can only see this as being an issue if everyone rushes to these places in one go. I havent been to any of these places yet, and If i went now in open I doubt anyone would be there. Why wait around for days on the off chance someone turns up. It still may happen from time to time, but don't all rush there when the discovery has been made and these people that like to grief just won't bother anymore as it will be boring for them, just sitting there waiting.

It's a regular predictable activity. Be it at the current CG, the most recent generation ship, the latest alien ruin or Thargoid Base, you'll get the same old individuals flying there in their most destructive ships, simply to interdict anyone and everyone to destroy them. Any ship is fair game, even the most simple of exploration ships... They're of course not doing it for a game reason, simply because they enjoy aggravating other CMDRs. So the more pointless and one sided the destruction, the further the CMDRs has to fly back, the better.

With the Frontier livestream a few weeks ago for the Thargoid announcement where you could fly to a couple of locations to witness the reveal, guess what happened in OPEN? Wings of them jumping into locations and simply destroying exploration ship after exploration ship literally in a matter of seconds... [Note: Ed Lewis was wisely not in OPEN]

It really is this pointless and this toxic. So yes, anarchy system cannot be left as they are to carry on in this fashion IMHO. After years I've signed up to Mobius finally frustrated with this never ending predicable toxic behaviour out for not other cause than to grief.

Do we know for sure that this will be the case? That is also assuming the Pilots Federation gets the info and how reliable it is.

Again, I'm not overly fussed about game universe explanations. If the mechanic works for the best gameplay outcome, any hand wavium can most likely explain the reason for it.

But suggesting the information from an anarchy system as regards an illegal destruction wouldn't make it out seems questionable? If I'm destroyed in an anarchy system or a non-anarchy system is there any difference in the outcome? Is information not passed around? Do I not appear back in a station with the name of the individual who "Illegally" destroyed me?

Has an insurance company not just had to pay a huge bill curtesy of the illegal destruction my CMDR X? Is it not reasonable to assume if CMDR X is next to expense after expense after expense, he might get some attention?

It is definatly heading in the right direction, I doubt that it will be perfect first time round and I am sure it will be built upon.

From Sandro's comments I think it's clear a C&P (karma) mechanic is on the way...

 

[Stigbob]

But as I said... You've agree it is about griefing and ganking in part. So, as I said - and you ignored - "...does any mechanic employed deal with the behaviour we want to rein in to give a positive outcome, without penalising other activities for a negative outcome."

Clearly the proposed mechanic should help rein in the toxic activity we're aiming at no?

So what are you doing in the game currently that would be negatively effected by the proposed C&P (karma) mechanic, even applying to anarchy systems?

We've already covered that.

OK.. I'll simplify it...

Given even in an anarchy system you can be identified, would you wish to steal or instead murder/destroy? Which will draw more attention? Which is going to cost big organisations lots of unwanted expense with your name next to the bills?

Lore : A lawless anarchic system is a scary place and the residents wouldn't communicate with external authority, think compromised nav beacon on a system wide scale.

Not lore : You have to be willing to give and take to compromise, pirates will need places they can operate with impunity if the new C&P idea's are introduced. Give them anarchies.

Bit of a vague question? - "Were you fearful of being labelled and punished as a lulzkiller at the time, and were you in an anarchy."

No, I wasn't the slightest bit concerned how someone else saw me? Punished as a lulzkiller? What even is that? I was prevented from pirating by bounty hunters? I've had to fight off bounty hunters jumping into protect traders?

In anarchy system? I've pirated multiple times where ever that best took me. So I highly suspect I've been in anarchy systems yes? TBH the bounties and system response are of such little concern most of the time... It's not a concern...

Currently thats how it is, but we are talking about C&P changes and their effect. Would you still be willing to pirate if they implemented your plan ?.

You seem to have a lot of strong views on piracy given you have no interest in its mechanics?

Your point being ?.

You seem to think destruction is the only tool for those not willing to simply hand cargo over? What a shallow dull game that would be?

Asking for 20T of cargo, and then if they run hatch break a lot more than that is "a lesson".

Dealing some damage is "a lesson".

Still being able to destroy a particularly frustrating CMDR is "a lesson".

With the might of the PF behind them wouldn't all traders become particularly frustrating, they could potentially abuse the punishment mechanic.

I've asked it... You've not answered it, so humour me... - If you are habitually destroying ships (yes even in anarchy systems), again what is unreastic or unfair about that drawing attention and negative outcomes?

So what are you doing in the game currently that would be negatively effected by the proposed C&P (karma) mechanic, even applying to anarchy systems?

^^ You'll notice I've asked this quite a few times now... I'm interesting in your answer...

See my top answer.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

It does seem a very black and white solution?

And it also doesn't penalise a habit. ie: Seal club one CMDR, or a dozen? The outcome?

But as you say, it's a "direction" at least

Yeah.

Haha just lost my latest response to your points don't know how the draft saving system works either! Will pick it up again at some point no doubt!!

 

[Zambrick]

Still nothing concrete. Op opened a post of a non issue. Everyone else has blown the rest of the posts out of proportion.

Having people defend lore versus real world. The people defend Lore obviously dont know what they are talking about and dont know the lore in the slightest. The other side is comparing things to the real world but in the real world we would have killed those people by now.( In game Equivalent is perma banning.)

So there will be no compromise between these type of conflicts.

One side wants Pirates of the Caribbean that never existed in the real world. The other side wants the real Pirates in the Caribbean where the vast majority of them were killed and or destroyed.

There is a middle ground here, but there is no way to reach it with the new system alone. There needs to be many more facets of punishment and rewards in addition to the karma system to be introduced first.

The OP posed a question/issue that does not exist. Someone turning on the report crimes flag once they are losing a fight is not a problem. Its the risk they chose to take so its not a problem.

People complaining that the anarchy systems should be free and clear murder zones. This has nothing to do with the security of the area and everything to do with being a part of the Pilots Federation. That is where your bounties come from and the real Lore states that infighting will only be tolerated to a certain extent and then the group self polices its members.

 

[NeilF]

We've already covered that.

So you can't describe how you time in the game is negatively affected by the proposed mechanic? - That's a great!

Lore : A lawless anarchic system is a scary place and the residents wouldn't communicate with external authority, think compromised nav beacon on a system wide scale.

Not lore : You have to be willing to give and take to compromise, pirates will need places they can operate with impunity if the new C&P idea's are introduced. Give them anarchies.

A pirate can act with impunity in an anarchy system. They can interdict and pirate away absolutely safe in the knowledge no security force will be coming to interfere. Groups of pirates could bleed traders try in such systems...

Problem?

It seems your problem is - within an area of the game you have no interest in of course - that you can't destroy victim after victim after victim without a negative reputation building up? You may recall I've asked why this in unrealistic and/or unfair...?

^^ Note: Sandro has implied piracy as FD want it in the game is to do with the steeling of cargo. Not destrucion of victims.

Currently thats how it is, but we are talking about C&P changes and their effect. Would you still be willing to pirate if they implemented your plan ?.

Of course? I could destroy even more ships than I do with the mechanic I proposed back in #696 without getting negative effects? Problem?

With the might of the PF behind them wouldn't all traders become particularly frustrating, they could potentially abuse the punishment mechanic.

How might such an abuse manifest itself. Traders ramming themselves to death on pirate ships.... Shaking their fists and shouting, "Yeeeerr... This will show him!"

See my top answer.

I did... You've seemingly not been able to comment on how your daily gameplay would be negatively effected, which is great!

 

[Stigbob]

So you can't describe how you time in the game is negatively affected by the proposed mechanic? - That's a great!

Yep you feel free to theory-craft into that absolutely whatever you like, just stop repeatedly going on about it to me.

A pirate can act with impunity in an anarchy system. They can interdict and pirate away absolutely safe in the knowledge no security force will be coming to interfere. Groups of pirates could bleed traders try in such systems...

Problem?

It seems your problem is - within an area of the game you have no interest in of course - that you can't destroy victim after victim after victim without a negative reputation building up? You may recall I've asked why this in unrealistic and/or unfair...?

Your stigbob's game-style investigatory theory-crafting here is still irrelevant.

^^ Note: Sandro has implied piracy as FD want it in the game is to do with the steeling of cargo. Not destrucion of victims.

Of course? I could destroy even more ships than I do with the mechanic I proposed back in #696 without getting negative effects? Problem?

And Sandro mentioned anarchies would be left alone IIRC.

If you want me to read an old post of yours you can either pop in a link or quote it.

How might such an abuse manifest itself. Traders ramming themselves to death on pirate ships.... Shaking their fists and shouting, "Yeeeerr... This will show him!"

I did... You've seemingly not been able to comment on how your daily gameplay would be negatively effected, which is great!

My gameplay choices are not the subject of this thread, it may have become the subject of all your recent posts thanks entirely to your own imaginary fears but like I said it's irrelevant to the C&P fixes and off topic.

 

[NeilF]

Your stigbob's game-style investigatory theory-crafting here is still irrelevant.

Two things here... First of all, the reply was quite a clear clarification of the problem with your statement. You said pirates would not pirate with impunity in anarchy systems under the proposal. Your statement is ill founded as the mechanic will let CMDRs pirate in exactly the same unchanged fashion? The only difference will be their decision to destroy their victim and the logical and fair outcome of that.

Secondly, we're discussing a proposal. It may be good, it may be bad. The best approach to deduce this is for people to suggest the pro's and con's of it.

The pro's of the mechanics is habitual illegal destruction being reined in all system types, and illegal destruction is given some worth/importance. I'm always interested to hear con's... ie: how it will negatively effect your ingame time... Hence me asking...

So at lt this point it would be really useful for you to comment on how it will negatively effect your in game time? What are you doing now that you couldn't under the proposal?

If you won't do that, and instead keep bringing such ill founded issues to the table, we're not going to get very far.

And Sandro mentioned anarchies would be left alone IIRC.

Possibly.. Hopefully not... Else the toxic griefing will continue at too many locations and events, unless something is done to rein it in. And I've yet to hear why simply applying the C&P (karma) mechanic to anarchy systems would be overtly counter productive.

Out of interest, how do you feel such a mechanic would negatively effect your in game time? What are you doing now that you couldn't under the proposal? Because that would be really useful to know as part of this discussion.

 

[Stigbob]

Two things here... First of all, the reply was quite a clear clarification of the problem with your statement. You said pirates would not pirate with impunity in anarchy systems under the proposal. Your statement is ill founded as the mechanic will let CMDRs pirate in exactly the same unchanged fashion? The only difference will be their decision to destroy their victim and the logical and fair outcome of that.

Secondly, we're discussing a proposal. It may be good, it may be bad. The best approach to deduce this is for people to suggest the pro's and con's of it.

The pro's of the mechanics is habitual illegal destruction being reined in all system types, and illegal destruction is given some worth/importance. I'm always interested to hear con's... ie: how it will negatively effect your ingame time... Hence me asking...

So at lt this point it would be really useful for you to comment on how it will negatively effect your in game time? What are you doing now that you couldn't under the proposal?

If you won't do that, and instead keep bringing such ill founded issues to the table, we're not going to get very far.

Possibly.. Hopefully not... Else the toxic griefing will continue at too many locations and events, unless something is done to rein it in. And I've yet to hear why simply applying the C&P (karma) mechanic to anarchy systems would be overtly counter productive.

Out of interest, how do you feel such a mechanic would negatively effect your in game time? What are you doing now that you couldn't under the proposal? Because that would be really useful to know as part of this discussion.

Anarchies are supposed to be dangerous in a way they never have been so far, C&P improvements shouldn't touch them. If they become even more dangerous under C&P that will be good thing for the game.

 

[NeilF]

Anarchies are supposed to be dangerous in a way they never have been so far, C&P improvements shouldn't touch them. If they become even more dangerous under C&P that will be good thing for the game.

They indeed should. But now balance that with what's going on now where it's simply being used as an excuse to grief/gank without a care in the galaxy?

There's no reason the two (anarchy systems & a C&P mechanic) can't exist togethor though. If a trader is going into an anarchy system there is no security to come to help them. A pirate can "pirate" them to his hearts content in the knowledge of this... And under the C&P mechanic you're suggesting will ruin all this, the pirate can indeed still threated to destroy the trader.... and indeed even carry out that threat. BUT, if they start turning destruction into a pass time, and become a psychopath, what's unfair and unrealistic about them then getting penalised should they leave the anarchy system? Seems entirely logical, realistic and reasoned for the better outcome in the game to me at least?


Maybe what might help is if you could explain how the proposed mechanic would negatively effect your in game time? What are you doing now that you couldn't under the proposal? Because that would be really useful to know as part of this discussion.

ps: As for anarchy systems needing to be more dangerous. Go and spend a couple of hours at the latest Thargoid base or the like in OPEN. Behold psychopathic levels of dangerous