PvP The PvE <-> PvP Rift

[Roybe]

Let me get this through your guys' heads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYXTh4TCVo

As long as BGS attacks, Flipping systems or UA bombing can be done safely in other modes. No one is going to INTENTIONALLY PUT THEM SELVES OUT THERE TO BE PVP'd.

You cant ADD A MECHANIC on top of what we have now and change nothing. It will be the same thing we have now. Im not going to login in and let someone take 30 merits or points off me when I dont have to. And all I have to do is trade to flip a system.

In order to add anything PVP related. It has to be funneled and the main process of flipping powerplay and player BGS systems has to change with ANY LAYER they add for PVP. And if they ADD a Layer for PVP. It has to be in a FORCED ENVIRONMENT. Or people will opt out, not because its optional. But because its OPTIMAL.

AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE, CAUSE 90s KID SAID SO.

Let me point this out to you...without a PVP bucket in the game...any other complaint is fruitless. Once you have a PVP bucket...then everything is equal. Start fighting for the correct solution to your 'problem' (of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!).

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Let me point this out to you...without a PVP bucket in the game...any other complaint is fruitless. Once you have a PVP bucket...then everything is equal. Start fighting for the correct solution to your 'problem' (of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!).

Anything you're saying here is fruitless. I understand how the game is now. I just explained it.

As a matter of fact. I am able to go into every single part of why its imbalanced. In detail, even down to the Math with ship builds. And even others proving the point for me. The people that attacked us using those methods none-the less. And even admitting how they are going about doing it, and the advantage they have.

Im saying its time for Change.

Fight against it all you want.

All you're doing is bringing opinions, while im dropping facts.

I just explained why PVP isint viable in this game when it was meant to be. "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)."

What you said right there, means you dont have a clue whats going on. Or some of you guys intentionally turn a blind eye to it.

And if it is acknowledged, People say "well you have the option to use that mode too" Admitting the meta exists.

So half the game isint being used, modules and so forth.

And this rings true "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)." But the HINT is what you should be asking yourself is WHY. And its the damn modes son.

Powerplay was made for it. And it got trashed.

you are trying to use this "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)." as an excuse. And you're only shooting yourself in the foot. BECAUSE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE PVP BUCKET.

Good lord folks. This aint rocket science.

Hell I flunked sandbox and can understand this.

Ive simply come to the conclusion, you guys dont want to be physically stopped while using this known advantage. Nothing more to it.

I know it, you know it. Lets stop the circle jerk now.

No one is buying it anymore.


OPTIMAL VS OPTIONAL.

 

[ALGOMATIC]

Actually Truesilver myself and i beleive others have suggested the harder ones be opt in. So it hasent been ignored so much as discounted by (strangely) the most vocal PvPers here.

The risk/reward debate is over risk not danger if it is eady to escape (debateable) ther is no extra risk. Still adding an extra bonus for being in open seems silly. It obviously is an attempt to lure more targets into open since the PvP bros are at no extra risk since they are already fit for PvP not trade.

Here is somerhung to think about. Even if such a bonus was put in and if the avility to exploit it werw removed (alrready stated how thats not possible at this point) The traders would soon leave since they would always get blown up and made fun of. And unless you get your kicks on killing the weak and new players it will do nothing to improve PvP.

If you want more olayers to try and remain in open yoy need to make it fun for them as well.

Why do you think they would be blown up and not escape?

 

[Roybe]

Anything you're saying here is fruitless. I understand how the game is now. I just explained it.

As a matter of fact. I am able to go into every single part of why its imbalanced. In detail, even down to the Math with ship builds. And even others proving the point for me. The people that attacked us using those methods none-the less. And even admitting how they are going about doing it, and the advantage they have.

Im saying its time for Change.

Fight against it all you want.

All you're doing is bringing opinions, while im dropping facts.

I just explained why PVP isint viable in this game when it was meant to be. "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)."

What you said right there, means you dont have a clue whats going on. Or some of you guys intentionally turn a blind eye to it.

And if it is acknowledged, People say "well you have the option to use that mode too" Admitting the meta exists.

So half the game isint being used, modules and so forth.

And this rings true "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)." But the HINT is what you should be asking yourself is WHY. And its the damn modes son.

Powerplay was made for it. And it got trashed.

you are trying to use this "(of course, the game NOT having a bucket for PVP...five years after release SHOULD be giving you a large hint!)." as an excuse. And you're only shooting yourself in the foot. BECAUSE IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE PVP BUCKET.

Good lord folks. This aint rocket science.

Hell I flunked sandbox and can understand this.

Ive simply come to the conclusion, you guys dont want to be physically stopped while using this known advantage. Nothing more to it.

I know it, you know it. Lets stop the circle jerk now.

No one is buying it anymore.


OPTIMAL VS OPTIONAL.

The reason that PVP is a sideshow five years after release is simple! The devs don't allow PVP to have any input into the BGS! Without that, any other ideas are going to be unacceptable to PVP players! All you will have are PVP contests that are unattached to anything! I hope you get what will make you happy! I just see you leaving in frustration, long before anything like you desire happening.

One other thing, I'm not fighting for the status quo. I'm showing you the fight you should be fighting...any other discussion is truly fruitless. I would love to see PVP become attached to the game...and have meaning to actions done. But without a bucket...PVP is only a choice, to be made, for fun. Never for profit. Never to be directly influential to the game. Only as a way to create a storyline within the game, that could interest all players!

If the devs won't add a PVP bucket because of modes...there's your answer...because the devs are not going to change people's choices to who they desire to play with, and the BGS doesn't care about modes! Modes ain't leaving, son! You are!

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

I want to know what love is and I want That90sKid to show meeeeeeeeeee!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The reason that PVP is a sideshow five years after release is simple! The devs don't allow PVP to have any input into the BGS! Without that, any other ideas are going to be unacceptable to PVP players! All you will have are PVP contests that are unattached to anything! I hope you get what will make you happy! I just see you leaving in frustration, long before anything like you desire happening.

One other thing, I'm not fighting for the status quo. I'm showing you the fight you should be fighting...any other discussion is truly fruitless. I would love to see PVP become attached to the game...and have meaning to actions done. But without a bucket...PVP is only a choice, to be made, for fun. Never for profit. Never to be influential to the game.

If the devs won't add a PVP bucket is because of modes...there's your answer...because modes ain't leaving, son! You are!

I dont mind if the modes stay. Again , my fight has never been that the modes exist. Its whats happening between them is what I have a problem with. The modes dont need to go anywhere. Things that happen within them is what Ive been asking for change in.

This WHOLE TIME. Again you're trying to sway this in a different direction and put words in my mouth. The modes should be used for Personal Progression or chillin with friends. Any adversarial play needs to be done all in one MODE. If other players arent involved with specific systems. Then nothing changes. It only changed when player groups and attached.

Not that big of a compromise.

And I dont think I am going anywhere. I have faith.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Nope you keep using this argument and its wrong in so many peoples eyes.
First lets take optional/optimal. If you only ever do something the optimal way you are missing out on so so much whether in rl or a game. Playing the META is over rated. And here is a big thing you choosing to play the META is an optional choice you make, you could just as easily choose a different way so even the META is optional.

And people do intentionally put themselves out there to be PvPed if it didnt happen there would be zero direct PvP so your argument fails on that. You think all BGS manipulation goes on only in PG/Solo, that is not true at all. Sure some of it is but you inflate it to everyone and that is false.

Drop the bone and look for actual solutions, because what you are asking for is not what Elite Dangerous set out to be. Froth at the mouth (thats what i think when i see all CAPS) all you want, I have faith that FDev does not agree with you.
I hope there are some changes that add to the PvP play style with this year, as well as others, and I hope you enjoy the game enough to keep playing even if you dont get your way.

 

[Roybe]

I dont mind if the modes stay. Again , my fight has never been that the modes exist. Its whats happening between them is what I have a problem with. The modes dont need to go anywhere. Things that happen within them is what Ive been asking for change in.

This WHOLE TIME. Again you're trying to sway this in a different direction and put words in my mouth. The modes should be used for Personal Progression or chillin with friends. Any adversarial play needs to be done all in one MODE. If other players arent involved with specific systems. Then nothing changes. It only changed when player groups and attached.

Not that big of a compromise.

And I dont think I am going anywhere. I have faith.

The thing is, the game makes no distinction about the 'modes'. It only sees it as a matchmaking choice. Period. If you want something to change...you need a bucket in the BGS...as that is the only thing the BGS sees. Without that input, PVP means nothing to the game...other than a way to motivate...or demotivate people to play together.

Fight what you want to fight for. It's your fight. I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! But, please...keep up your fight! Just understand two things, no one in this group has any sway over what the devs do. Everyone of us, Jockey, Mouse, Ziggy, etc. could all wake up tomorrow and agree with you...go onto the forums with a single voice denouncing the game and the devs choices...and nothing would change! Period. We have no voice in the way the devs work, design, or create. We only try to show people what the devs have done, how the game works, and why there are no choices on the table for PVP players desires...when discussing certain issues...particularly 'player desires for interaction'...the 'modes'.

You don't like the interactions between people's choices of who they play with...I get that...and unfortunately, that is unfixable without a bucket system for PVP. That is the shortcoming. You can't force people to play with people they do not want to play with.

You cannot limit what happens between these choices, because the game does not see them as different in gameplay..only matchmaking.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The thing is, the game makes no distinction about the 'modes'. It only sees it as a matchmaking choice. Period. If you want something to change...you need a bucket in the BGS...as that is the only thing the BGS sees. Without that input, PVP means nothing to the game...other than a way to motivate...or demotivate people to play together.

Fight what you want to fight for. It's your fight. I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! But, please...keep up your fight! Just understand two things, no one in this group has any sway over what the devs do. Everyone of us, Jockey, Mouse, Ziggy, etc. could all wake up tomorrow and agree with you...go onto the forums with a single voice denouncing the game and the devs choices...and nothing would change! Period. We have no voice in the way the devs work, design, or create. We only try to show people what the devs have done, how the game works, and why there are no choices on the table for PVP players desires...when discussion certain issues...particularly 'player desires for interaction'...the 'modes'.

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! "

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! "

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care!"

LOL! Good lord.

 

[Roybe]

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! "

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care! "

" I have watched literally thousands of players leave this game over PVP...I have a list of over 200 people privately that do not play any more. The devs do not care!"

LOL! Good lord.

Nothing has changed in 5 years...LOL! Good Lord!

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

So if that is the case why not allow each player group to decide if they are a PvP faction or not. Once they decide they can not be affected or affect the other factions that are not PvP.
How are you going to lock the BGS to one mode without affecting the modes? You have repeatedly stated that the BGS should only affect open. Why not add a PvP BGS and lock that to PvP player factions and leave everyone else alone like you say you are trying to do?

The BGS is like the nervous system of the game nothing happens without it being involved. Everyone was promised the ability to affect the shared universe when they purchased the game dont expect an easy sell when what you want is to remove that part of the game.

If I pick the PVP faction, then the NON - PVP faction should never be able to touch us and vice versa.

 

[Roybe]

If I pick the PVP faction, then the NONE PVP faction should never be able to touch us and vice versa.

Never going to happen in this game...good luck! There's no such thing as PVP faction within this game!

 

[lenna]

I'd implore you to reconsider avoiding PVP because of people's attitudes. I'm very open to helping people if they're interested in learning the ropes. In fact, I'd welcome you to come out sometime and at least dabble in a few sparring matches - stock ships, no funny business. It might not be your thing but I feel like the overwhelming vast majority of people who want to "incentivize" PVP have done very little of it, and are commenting on it as outsiders. I'd like to hope some people would take the opportunity to prove me wrong.

I did not get ED to get involved with PvP in any form, I got it because I like general game type and could play it with some of my friends that I used to player co-operative multiplayer Microsoft Freelancer with.

In fact, it took some convincing for me to invest in ED in the first place - I was put off my the MMO tag and the general implications of mixed mode PvX gaming. My original objections to the principle of mixed mode gaming were well founded based on my observations wrt these forums - both because of the attitudes of at least some PvPers and the anecdotal evidence of various incidents in Open mode. Thankfully, ED's fundamental principle of all modes being considered equal in the eyes of the devs means that I do not have to put up with such incidents or behaviours and can still play co-operatively (or not) with the people I choose to play with and trust to behave reasonably.

If I want to engage in PvP, there are other games better suited for it IMO. It is possible I might choose at some point to engage in CQC, but that would be as far as my personal interest in PvP goes where ED is concerned.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

And it is likely more players would leave if the game changed to a PvP centric game. Why do your 200 players mean more than the thousands who like the game as it is?

I know I am meaningless and can only speak to my views, I dont have your crystal ball or the hubris to suggest others feel the same way like you do. But in the end FDev will make the decision I really hope you stick around afterwards because you like the game regardless of its problems, rather than stamping your feet and going away in a huff.

Or if you leave its not because you didnt get your way but you just dont enjoy the game anymore.

Im not going to play an intentionally unbalanced game. As much as I love the game. Im not going to stay if it stays the same.

Im not going to play a game I love, only to end up hating it because of crappy balancing.

Ill just go play world of warcraft. They took everything we're talking about here. And implemented it in Battle For Azeroth. Same server, PVP groups fight over territory. PVEers get to opt in or out. But if you PVE you have no say so over the zone. Its funneling people that normally dont PVE into PVP if they want the reward.

ALL ON THE SAME SHARDED SERVER. You fight for it. Or dont. But if you dont fight for it with other PVPers. You cant complain you're never getting the buffs. Its all about doing your part.

Its a good watch, [video=youtube;jdrAJYCXfNM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdrAJYCXfNM[/video]
Its 100% relate-able to Elite Dangerous.

And Proves games can change over time. Just like this one is capable of doing. It just needs proper balance.

Its funny though, its like they took everything anyone has said about balancing for meaningful PVP and did it in another game. Because it makes sense!

That video is a prime example of this.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Yes that is what I was suggesting, of course it has issues with implementation and extra dev work, and of course some people wouldnt like it, but it would be a better suggestion than trying to remove the BGS from anyone who didnt play in open.

I am sure there are other ideas out there that are better, but we dont see them because you wont let go of the BGS = Open only argument.

Yes it would need to be both ways, of course It would also require a PvP style bucket layer as well.

Awesome! This is all ive been asking for. Whether it be the modes, or maybe Permit Locked systems. Something we already have. And can be locked in one way or another.

Now, there would be some issues as far as Blocking people off for expansion. So I dont think it will work. Since one can effect the other. The factions would still have to be able to be attacked in one way or another so people can expand and arent blocked into one system.

So because of that. You have to agree to the permit locked zones rules if you are the attacker.

However, this all comes back to the Modes META as well. And no one is going to chose to take the Open Route when you have the optimal way in front of you. There needs to be no choice in the matter.

All one way. Or no way. Whether its PG, SOLO or OPEN. Its needs to be done all the same way. Or no way.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

Isnt it still opt in and doesnt remove anything from the other players? Sure they dont get the PvP goodies, but they never did either.
The proposal you have offered up does remove things other players already have. So more in line with adding something to one group but not taking away from the other group.
Havent played WoW in a long time. The PvP flags were good too. This kind of replaces that right. To kind of group like minded individuals together?

That would kind of be like putting in a permit (open only) bubble for the PvPers, but as I recall that got shouted down when suggested.

NO ONE IS GETTING ANYTHING REMOVED. Did you watch the video?

Did you pay attention at all?

you replied in 7 minutes. You didnt watch anything. This is the issue here. No one pays attention. And they fight for stuff they have no hand in. or refuse to acknowledge.

another one bites the dust.

 

[Roybe]

Im not going to play an intentionally unbalanced game. As much as I love the game. Im not going to stay if it stays the same.

Im not going to play a game I love, only to end up hating it because of crappy balancing.

Ill just go play world of warcraft. They took everything we're talking about here. And implemented it in Battle For Azeroth. Same server, PVP groups fight over territory. PVEers get to opt in or out. But if you PVE you have no say so over the zone. Its funneling people that normally dont PVE into PVP if they want the reward.

ALL ON THE SAME SHARDED SERVER. You fight for it. Or dont. But if you dont fight for it with other PVPers. You cant complain you're never getting the buffs. Its all about doing your part.

Its a good watch, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdrAJYCXfNM
Its 100% relate-able to Elite Dangerous.

And Proves games can change over time. Just like this one is capable of doing. It just needs proper balance.

Its funny though, its like they took everything anyone has said about balancing for meaningful PVP and did it in another game. Because it makes sense!

That video is a prime example of this.

The only way this game becomes enjoyable and meaningful for PVP players is when the devs add a bucket/series of buckets to the BGS that allow PVP to occur. There are no separate servers, there is only matchmaking. There is only one server...it runs the BGS...it is 'non-shardable'...whether the devs will ever make a second or third server is, although possible, it's extremely unlikely, since it also shards the galaxy between the servers...storyline outcomes, BGS fights, etc. etc. ad nauseum...and also increases their maintenance cost.

In short, this game is not designed as a MMO like WoW, and cannot be developed along the same lines...without a ground up redesign.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

The only way this game becomes enjoyable and meaningful for PVP players is when the devs add a bucket/series of buckets to the BGS that allow PVP to occur. There are no separate servers, there is only matchmaking. There is only one server...it runs the BGS...it is 'non-shardable'...whether the devs will ever make a second or third server is, although possible, is extremely unlikely, since it also shards the galaxy between the servers...

Are you still trying to tell me how the game works? I know how it works. What part if this dont you understand?

Im showing the needs for changes. A lot of people are.

Thats how you get changes done. Showing facts not opinions. Proof and not the same circular discussion.

Havnt you guys noticed I can write essays on this stuff? I know how the game works Roybe.

 

[WorldsGreatestForumDad]

See I still disagree that people will only take the optimal route. We have been down that rabbit hole a time or two and I dont think we will ever agree, I think you are missing out on a whole world of fun play sticking to only the optimal.
But with the faction being PvP only, only PvP factions could affect them so I dont see the imbalance there. No A PvP faction could not expand into a PvE faction territory but we are also talking about them not being able to expand into a PvP area.
It has many areas of failure in my opinion but I dont see that as one of them, unless its really all about number of targets which I dont think it is in this case. Then again i have been wrong before even watched my self do it.

I use the modes to min max. Im always going to take the optimal route. People learn this early on with CG's.

Want proof, go to any thread where people complain about being ganked in open with their shieldless cutter. There will be 3-4 replies saying USE MOBIUS PVE with the link provided.

Usually those guys dont play the BGS or powerplay yet. Even though they got that cutter. Those guys complaining arent the ones that have deep knowledge of the game. Cause trust me, those guys that do have the knowledge of the game and BGS mechanics(that are very indepth). Would never EVER make a post like that. Because they learned early on just the same as the rest of us the risks and rewards vs ship builds early on in the game with CG's.

Does this make sense?

 

[Roybe]

Are you still trying to tell me how the game works? I know how it works. What part if this dont you understand?

Im showing the needs for changes. A lot of people are.

Thats how you get changes done. Showing facts not opinions. Proof and not the same circular discussion.

Havnt you guys noticed I can write essays on this stuff? I know how the game works Roybe.

Great...then you understand that the game cannot be broken into shards, right?

That there is only 1 monolithic unbreakable set of databases, that everyone plays on?

That Modes are only players choices to interactions with other players?

The Monolothic database does not, currently, register any activities with PVP?

That the game is PTP and not Client/server (like WoW)?

And that your desires go against this set of design criteria?