General / Off-Topic The SNP is wrong. There has been no material change in circumstances.

[Ian Skippy]

I like it when people pretend to speak for everyone else in their country. Real classy. Shows a great understanding of the purpose of democracy too. Seems common sense to me that something as drastic as a brexit should automatically lead to the Scots having to formally chose between UK and EU. If the Scots really all want to stay in the UK as the OP claims, than there is no harm in having a referendum. If the majority of Scots want to leave, they deserve a referendum.

Denying a referendum under these cirumstances only makes sense if you are scared about the outcome of a democratic vote. But hey, lets all yell "EU is tyrannical" and nevermind your own people.

 

[Noddie]

Yeah. But by that the token, shouldn't all cities and counties get to make the decision?

 

[TheAntitheist Crusader]

Just to clarify, i believe that scots should be able to choose independance, my opposition to such an event is what i'm getting at, speaking as a pro Union Welshman living in England, i spent a couple of years living in Scotland when my dad was in the RAF, i guess my opinion is heavily biased in favour of a United Britain because i've lived all over it, and see no sense in breaking it up. The labour party is THE ONLY party that really wants to look after working and middle class folk UK wide, yes the center left/center Blair Brown years were not ideal, but now labour is truly left again, once Corbyn is gone and someone like Hilary Benn or Dan Jarvis or Tom Watson takes over, labour will be right back on track in England and Wales, and maybe regain Scottish seats. Having said all that, i'd like to show my unity with the majority of Scots regarding a disdain for the Tories and UKIP, even i would vote for the SNP/Plaid/green before a right wing party, and that's saying something because i can't stand any of those CND pacifist parties.

 

[Patrick_68000]

57% of Scots would vote against the independence, according to a poll in The Times ---- http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/scots-want-to-remain-in-uk-new-poll-reveals-57256ptzs

 

[Lianachan]

Save the labour party in Scotland?

Now why do you imagine it's a distinctly Scottish thing that it needs saving?

Oh, I don't think it's worth saving. It's just that "Scottish Labour" isn't really a thing, it's just a branch office of the main party.

 

[Shanaeri]

There were some interesting points of view on sky news last night. A couple of commentators were saying that just like Brexit and Trump the economic issues would take second place to feelings of nationalism.

I've not seen any serious analysis that says "Scotland will be fine economically post independence" it's all been "Scotland is going to need a lot of outside help for a long time to come"

The commentators on sky news were postulating that arguing against independence from an economic standpoint will be countered by calling it "Project fear" and "Now we have our freedom we can choose"

Sound familiar?

 

[Lianachan]

I've not seen any serious analysis that says "Scotland will be fine economically post independence" it's all been "Scotland is going to need a lot of outside help for a long time to come"

Yeah, well that's what happens if your news source is Sky News! Presenting Scotland as an economic basket case is a standard tactic of the unionist media - and, of course, it's nonsense.

 

[Talarin]

There were some interesting points of view on sky news last night. A couple of commentators were saying that just like Brexit and Trump the economic issues would take second place to feelings of nationalism.

I've not seen any serious analysis that says "Scotland will be fine economically post independence" it's all been "Scotland is going to need a lot of outside help for a long time to come"

The commentators on sky news were postulating that arguing against independence from an economic standpoint will be countered by calling it "Project fear" and "Now we have our freedom we can choose"

Sound familiar?

Don't take anyone's word for it - dig out the numbers yourself: http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2016/08/2132

GERS says that the Scottish deficit is about £15bn against a public spend of £69 billion. Scotland would be looking at reducing public expenditure/raising taxes by about 20% to balance the books or get near the 3% deficit target for joining the EU (if that's the route they choose to go down). In truth, Oil and Gas receipts will probably pick up so it will actually be marginally better in reality - plus the global economy appears to be moving again so better rates of growth can be expected in the medium term.

But, if Scotland were to become independent tomorrow I think "Scotland would need help" probably isn't an unfair position.

 

[Stealthie]

I find it bizarre to hear so many Scot's saying "I want a referendum because I don't want to leave the EU"

I'm not sure if these people are stupid or whether they've been misled but they don't seem to understand that they ARE leaving the EU at exactly the same time as the rest of the UK does.
That is inevitable.
"Scotland" is not a member of the EU. The United Kingdom is. And the United Kingdom has made it's choice on that issue - a choice that people in Scotland had the same right as everybody else to make.
If Scotland achieves independence they are, of course, perfectly entitled to apply for EU membership and if it meets the relevant criteria the membership will be granted in due course.
The people who seem to think that voting for independence prior to 2019 will prevent them leaving the EU might be perturbed at the thought of waiting for more than a decade to be let back into the EU though.

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.
If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.
If, on the other hand, they're claiming there is an economic benefit in being part of the EU then, given that they ARE leaving the EU and will not be rejoining for the foreseeable future, it seems incredibly reckless to severe ties with a market that it can trade with.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I find it bizarre to hear so many Scot's saying "I want a referendum because I don't want to leave the EU"

I'm not sure if these people are stupid or whether they've been misled but they don't seem to understand that they ARE leaving the EU at exactly the same time as the rest of the UK does.
That is inevitable.
"Scotland" is not a member of the EU. The United Kingdom is. And the United Kingdom has made it's choice on that issue - a choice that people in Scotland had the same right as everybody else to make.
If Scotland achieves independence they are, of course, perfectly entitled to apply for EU membership and if it meets the relevant criteria the membership will be granted in due course.
The people who seem to think that voting for independence prior to 2019 will prevent them leaving the EU might be perturbed at the thought of waiting for more than a decade to be let back into the EU though.

Very right

 

[Patrick_68000]

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.

It is the Scottish pro-independence party which apparently is not the majority of the Scottish people, because at this day 57 % of the Scottish people do not want the independence

 

[Lianachan]

I find it bizarre to hear so many Scot's saying "I want a referendum because I don't want to leave the EU"

I'm not sure if these people are stupid or whether they've been misled but they don't seem to understand that they ARE leaving the EU at exactly the same time as the rest of the UK does.
That is inevitable.
"Scotland" is not a member of the EU. The United Kingdom is. And the United Kingdom has made it's choice on that issue - a choice that people in Scotland had the same right as everybody else to make.
If Scotland achieves independence they are, of course, perfectly entitled to apply for EU membership and if it meets the relevant criteria the membership will be granted in due course.
The people who seem to think that voting for independence prior to 2019 will prevent them leaving the EU might be perturbed at the thought of waiting for more than a decade to be let back into the EU though.

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.
If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.
If, on the other hand, they're claiming there is an economic benefit in being part of the EU then, given that they ARE leaving the EU and will not be rejoining for the foreseeable future, it seems incredibly reckless to severe ties with a market that it can trade with.

There's so much wrong with that I wouldn't know where to start.

 

[Patrick_68000]

There's so much wrong with that I wouldn't know where to start.

I think what he says is very true. Particularly for the independence which implies after a new accession to the EU. It is also known that the accession to the EU implies a loss of national sovereignty

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

I find it bizarre to hear so many Scot's saying "I want a referendum because I don't want to leave the EU"

I'm not sure if these people are stupid or whether they've been misled but they don't seem to understand that they ARE leaving the EU at exactly the same time as the rest of the UK does.
That is inevitable.
"Scotland" is not a member of the EU. The United Kingdom is. And the United Kingdom has made it's choice on that issue - a choice that people in Scotland had the same right as everybody else to make.
If Scotland achieves independence they are, of course, perfectly entitled to apply for EU membership and if it meets the relevant criteria the membership will be granted in due course.
The people who seem to think that voting for independence prior to 2019 will prevent them leaving the EU might be perturbed at the thought of waiting for more than a decade to be let back into the EU though.

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.
If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.
If, on the other hand, they're claiming there is an economic benefit in being part of the EU then, given that they ARE leaving the EU and will not be rejoining for the foreseeable future, it seems incredibly reckless to severe ties with a market that it can trade with.

thats not necessarily the case. This would sololy depend on how the independence would be handeled. it could also just happen that when a part of the UK gets independend could inheriet the EU membership. Thats a lot's of law stuff and contracts that woudl have to happen to decide if that would be the case or not.

 

[The Kerbinator]

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.
If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.

The EU and the UK are not the same. They're fundamentally different at countless levels. To compare them so directly is a massive false equivalence. Tell me, do you direct the same comments at people who want to leave the EU and also want Scotland to stay in the UK?

 

[Javert]

I'm not sure if these people are stupid or whether they've been misled but they don't seem to understand that they ARE leaving the EU at exactly the same time as the rest of the UK does.
That is inevitable.
"Scotland" is not a member of the EU. The United Kingdom is. And the United Kingdom has made it's choice on that issue - a choice that people in Scotland had the same right as everybody else to make.
If Scotland achieves independence they are, of course, perfectly entitled to apply for EU membership and if it meets the relevant criteria the membership will be granted in due course.
The people who seem to think that voting for independence prior to 2019 will prevent them leaving the EU might be perturbed at the thought of waiting for more than a decade to be let back into the EU though.

What you are saying seems to be the situation today yes, although I think some people are hoping that the EU will somehow make a special deal with Scotland to keep them in and/or create some kind of special fast track process on the basis that Scotland already meets most of the conditions to be in the EU. Whether they meet the economic conditions will cause an argument though, and the EU would need to agree to this. Just assuming that the EU will do this might be risky.

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.
If they're just indulging in jingoistic nationalism then it's utterly hypocritical to grovel for membership of the EU while, at the same time, turning away from the UK.
If, on the other hand, they're claiming there is an economic benefit in being part of the EU then, given that they ARE leaving the EU and will not be rejoining for the foreseeable future, it seems incredibly reckless to severe ties with a market that it can trade with.

A valid point, but maybe not quite as bizarre as you state - the Union of Scotland with the UK is a true ceding of sovereignty where Scotland basically became part of the UK, and as such, is governed by Westminster. Any powers that Scotland has are ceded to Scotland (and not necessarily forever) by the UK parliament. Hence, Scotland has to seek permission from Westminster to have an independence referendum.

On the flip side, the EU is actually not a sovereign body at all - it is a group of nations bound together by some treaties that they made with each other. Crucially, any nation can decide to leave the EU at any time by invoking Article 50. They do not need permission from the EU to leave.

Strangely enough, the fact that the UK can leave the EU simply by unilaterally invoking Article 50, actually proves that the UK is, and always was, fully sovereign and can make its own choices at any time. i.e. the fact that we can leave actually shows that we don't need to leave to be sovereign! (I was actually surprised that Remain didn't make this point at all during the referendum campaign as it seemed obvious to me).

All that said, I do agree that a lot of the arguments that you can use to justify leaving the EU, you can also use the same or very similar arguments for Scotland leaving the UK, whilst a few of the arguments may be subtly different.

 

[Lianachan]

What you are saying seems to be the situation today yes, although I think some people are hoping that the EU will somehow make a special deal with Scotland to keep them in and/or create some kind of special fast track process on the basis that Scotland already meets most of the conditions to be in the EU. Whether they meet the economic conditions will cause an argument though, and the EU would need to agree to this. Just assuming that the EU will do this might be risky.

It's a vacuous argument. Even if Scotland is out of the EU and has to reapply - and on the assumption that such a claim is designed to dissuade people from voting Yes due to EU membership inconvenience - the alternative is to vote No and get hard Brexit... That's worse EU membership inconvenience!

A valid point, but maybe not quite as bizarre as you state - the Union of Scotland with the UK is a true ceding of sovereignty where Scotland basically became part of the UK, and as such, is governed by Westminster. Any powers that Scotland has are ceded to Scotland (and not necessarily forever) by the UK parliament. Hence, Scotland has to seek permission from Westminster to have an independence referendum.

On the flip side, the EU is actually not a sovereign body at all - it is a group of nations bound together by some treaties that they made with each other. Crucially, any nation can decide to leave the EU at any time by invoking Article 50. They do not need permission from the EU to leave.

Strangely enough, the fact that the UK can leave the EU simply by unilaterally invoking Article 50, actually proves that the UK is, and always was, fully sovereign and can make its own choices at any time. i.e. the fact that we can leave actually shows that we don't need to leave to be sovereign! (I was actually surprised that Remain didn't make this point at all during the referendum campaign as it seemed obvious to me).

All that said, I do agree that a lot of the arguments that you can use to justify leaving the EU, you can also use the same or very similar arguments for Scotland leaving the UK, whilst a few of the arguments may be subtly different.

Not many people around here seem to be aware of that distinction. I have said, umpteen times and often to the same people repeatedly, that the Scotland/UK relationship is entirely different from the UK/EU one.

 

[Stealthie]

The EU and the UK are not the same. They're fundamentally different at countless levels. To compare them so directly is a massive false equivalence. Tell me, do you direct the same comments at people who want to leave the EU and also want Scotland to stay in the UK?

I disagree.

If you want "independence" then there is no justification for seeking to remain part of the EU.
If you are concerned with the economic implications of being outside the EU then it's just pant-on-head ridiculous to seek independence from the UK.
In both options, hypocrisy is rife.

- - - Updated - - -

thats not necessarily the case. This would sololy depend on how the independence would be handeled. it could also just happen that when a part of the UK gets independend could inheriet the EU membership. Thats a lot's of law stuff and contracts that woudl have to happen to decide if that would be the case or not.

Setting aside the fact that all of what you say is based on assumption and "hoping for the best", let's look at the chain of events that would need to occur...

Scotland would have to hold yet another referendum, late in 2018, and the result be in favour of independence.
The UK and Scotland would then have to arrange the terms of independence within a few months so that the EU would know what they were granting admittance into the EU of.

There's no way that can happen within the allotted timeframe.
Hence, Scotland IS leaving the EU.
And then, once independence from the UK is achieved, they will have to pursue admission into the EU.

 

[Minonian]

I disagree.

If you want "independence" then there is no justification for seeking to remain part of the EU.
If you are concerned with the economic implications of being outside the EU then it's just pant-on-head ridiculous to seek independence from the UK.
In both options, hypocrisy is rife.
.

Your mistake is to assume they want independence for the sake of independence. They want it to remain part of the EU, / rejoin it.

 

[Adept]

I also find it a bizarre contradiction that these people seem to want independence from the UK but they want to subjugate themselves to the EU.

That's because you don't understand what the EU is.

A fee years ago I started a city-farming collective with more than a dozen other people. These days there are about 20 of us. I have not "subjugated" myself to this entity I joined, even though I pay membership fees and have duties towards it.