Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

Do you want a Open PvE

  • Yes, I want a Open PvE

    Votes: 54 51.4%
  • No, I don't want a Open PvE

    Votes: 49 46.7%
  • I want only Open PvE and PvP only in groups

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    105
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
It's not a deal-breaker. I have an opinion and I'm expressing it. Arguments that I should be satisfied with the status quo because it's how the game is ignore the fact that Elite is constantly in development and continues to change. When I purchased Elite there was no Power Play and no player factions. We weren't close to driving around on planets and doing other cool things. Frontier has clearly established a willingness to modify and change their game. It's reasonable to embrace that willingness and provide arguments for having things in a certain way.

Fair enough. I'm glad it's not a deal-breaker for you and I would be glad to encounter you if you're ever in the same group as I am or playing open at the same time. Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses of course, and of course you are welcome to express it. The facts of how the game was designed from the ground up, however, mean that even if your opinion was shared by FD it can't be made that way without a fundamental re-architecting of the software. There's a video out there with one of the devs describing the games underlying architecture in detail and quite frankly, if they were to suddenly get a brainstorm and say "Wow! Beer4TheBeerGod was right.. we HAVE to do it that way!" they'd be tearing the whole thing down and starting over. Technically, the ONLY way they could do anything like what you'd like without redesigning from scratch is to eliminate solo and groups entirely, leave everybody in open all the time, and that is so fundamentally against the "play the way you want to" ethos and - as you can see from these three megathreads - WOULD be a deal-breaker for so many current players that I think the chances of the status quo on this particular issue ever changing are somewhere along the lines of the chance a snowball has of surviving a blast furnace. So, therefore, I think the response to your opinion of "You got the game you got. Play by its rules or go home." is somewhat justified. You may have a great idea for how those rules would be improved in your eyes but that's almost like going to the baseball commissioner in the middle of the World Series like we are right now and saying "You're all playing it wrong, try it like this" and handing them the rulebook for cricket. (Yes, I understand both games, I'm a limey and used to be a pretty decent seam bowler but I live in the USA and I do love a decent ball game :) )
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The same can be said for the counter argument of "make this change and you'll lose players", which has repeatedly been used in this thread. As you say there are no numbers, just opinions. It's also why I said they "could" gain more customers.

The counter argument is more "leave the game as it is, thanks". Some participants in the thread have indicated their likely course of action should particular changes to the game be made.

There are no numbers in support of the change agenda, no. Frontier do have numbers though - they have a number of sales (850,000 copies at the last report) and also their analytics of the game itself - they know who plays when, where and in which mode.
 
The counter argument is more "leave the game as it is, thanks". Some participants in the thread have indicated their likely course of action should particular changes to the game be made.

There are no numbers in support of the change agenda, no. Frontier do have numbers though - they have a number of sales (850,000 copies at the last report) and also their analytics of the game itself - they know who plays when, where and in which mode.

And regardless of which way the numbers go...the modes will stand as they currently are. Honestly, the people I know that have left have done so with no relationship to the modes. Most have left because they see no increasing dev introduction of 'meaningful content'...whatever these players define that as....basically, they have lost enjoyment in what the game offers currently. The modes offer no change to the content....these players see what has been introduced as the same paint applied with a different brush....and what narrative that has been provided by the devs to drive this content as weak tea..at the best.
 
That's all very well... but do you like corduroy? As an aside, I was an opening batsman.

Practically, where I live now it sucks. Makes me look like somebodies freaky grandpa when I wear it too. So, no. Regarding your aside, you're probably in the same position as I am to appreciate the similarities in skill to deliver the perfect off-speed breaking ball that gets a swinging strike and those required to catch the seam just right and nail your outside edge to the slips :)
 
Fair enough. I'm glad it's not a deal-breaker for you and I would be glad to encounter you if you're ever in the same group as I am or playing open at the same time. Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses of course, and of course you are welcome to express it. The facts of how the game was designed from the ground up, however, mean that even if your opinion was shared by FD it can't be made that way without a fundamental re-architecting of the software. There's a video out there with one of the devs describing the games underlying architecture in detail and quite frankly, if they were to suddenly get a brainstorm and say "Wow! Beer4TheBeerGod was right.. we HAVE to do it that way!" they'd be tearing the whole thing down and starting over. Technically, the ONLY way they could do anything like what you'd like without redesigning from scratch is to eliminate solo and groups entirely, leave everybody in open all the time, and that is so fundamentally against the "play the way you want to" ethos and - as you can see from these three megathreads - WOULD be a deal-breaker for so many current players that I think the chances of the status quo on this particular issue ever changing are somewhere along the lines of the chance a snowball has of surviving a blast furnace. So, therefore, I think the response to your opinion of "You got the game you got. Play by its rules or go home." is somewhat justified. You may have a great idea for how those rules would be improved in your eyes but that's almost like going to the baseball commissioner in the middle of the World Series like we are right now and saying "You're all playing it wrong, try it like this" and handing them the rulebook for cricket. (Yes, I understand both games, I'm a limey and used to be a pretty decent seam bowler but I live in the USA and I do love a decent ball game :) )

I'm not sure I understand why you think they would need to make such a major change. I'm advocating for one thing: the elimination of players ability to affect faction influence outside of open play. That's it. Solo play would stay , group play would stay, players would still be able to participate in community events, power play, and everything else. They would still be able to run missions, kill cops, play with their friends, go exploring, trade, fly around, get interdicted a million times while making a single jump smuggling run, and everything else you can do in Elite. The only thing that would change is that the BGS would not register influence changes coming from players in solo or group mode.
 
Frontier do have numbers though - they have a number of sales (850,000 copies at the last report) and also their analytics of the game itself - they know who plays when, where and in which mode.

Don't forget to add after 7 months of the game being live, they collected all the analytics and they said on the topic of modes / switching;

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Michael Brookes
From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

With an update a month later;
Dev Update 6th August 2015 (https://community.elitedangerous.com/node/248);

Dev Update (6/8/2015) Last Paragraph said:
What we are doing is new in many ways, both technically and in terms of how we are realizing our long term ambitions for Elite Dangerous. As we evolve the game we are trying to give the best value we can to both existing and new players, for the long term benefit of everyone. That’s why we’ve worked hard to keep backwards compatibility for the Elite Dangerous: Horizons season, and are continuing to release updates for ‘season one’ players. Everyone will continue to fly in the same galaxy, and be impacted by, participate in and help to drive the same events.

So while we may not have numbers - those who do have, reinforced the stance that the modes are a good thing and here to stay.
 
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I'm not sure I understand why you think they would need to make such a major change. I'm advocating for one thing: the elimination of players ability to affect faction influence outside of open play. That's it. Solo play would stay , group play would stay, players would still be able to participate in community events, power play, and everything else. They would still be able to run missions, kill cops, play with their friends, go exploring, trade, fly around, get interdicted a million times while making a single jump smuggling run, and everything else you can do in Elite. The only thing that would change is that the BGS would not register influence changes coming from players in solo or group mode.

The BGS controls all you say they could 'still do'....and drives influence. All players have a right to access this part of the game, together...as per the marketing and sales promises. To take that away would open the devs to huge lawsuits from current players, Micro$oft, and any others that have an interest in the game...in other words, it would change the nature of the game so it is vastly different from the advertised game. Cannot, and will not occur.
 
I'm not sure I understand why you think they would need to make such a major change. I'm advocating for one thing: the elimination of players ability to affect faction influence outside of open play. That's it. Solo play would stay , group play would stay, players would still be able to participate in community events, power play, and everything else. They would still be able to run missions, kill cops, play with their friends, go exploring, trade, fly around, get interdicted a million times while making a single jump smuggling run, and everything else you can do in Elite. The only thing that would change is that the BGS would not register influence changes coming from players in solo or group mode.

u understand that all the modes was one of the sale points and one of the core mechanincs right?
so if they change that yes will be a big change to the game in every way
 
I'm not sure I understand why you think they would need to make such a major change. I'm advocating for one thing: the elimination of players ability to affect faction influence outside of open play. That's it. Solo play would stay , group play would stay, players would still be able to participate in community events, power play, and everything else. They would still be able to run missions, kill cops, play with their friends, go exploring, trade, fly around, get interdicted a million times while making a single jump smuggling run, and everything else you can do in Elite. The only thing that would change is that the BGS would not register influence changes coming from players in solo or group mode.

ok, I can understand that. Here's the way it works right now - no part of the game code cares which mode or group you're in apart from the matchmaking for instances. Putting in checks for a particular mode anywhere else would be a huge effort. I'm anticipating the counter argument here of "but it's just in this one special case" but honestly, once they start doing one there's a lot more they would need to consider. MUCH better for FD to keep the boom lowered and say a blanket "NO" to any such thing. It's just too fundamental a change. The game client interacts with the BGS in too many points that drive faction influence or PP dynamics. As a dev manager I wouldn't want to make my team do that. Since a substantial fraction of the playerbase wouldn't want me to anyway (assuming posters to this thread are a representative sample of the playerbase as a whole, including those that don't ever bother posting to the forums) I'd have a pretty compelling business case for leaving things as they are.
 
The BGS controls all you say they could 'still do'....and drives influence. All players have a right to access this part of the game, together...as per the marketing and sales promises. To take that away would open the devs to huge lawsuits from current players, Micro$oft, and any others that have an interest in the game...in other words, it would change the nature of the game so it is vastly different from the advertised game. Cannot, and will not occur.
There is another issue with shadowbanning Solo players from affecting the BGS: They can't affect it, but when it affects them, they can't do anything about it -- and not just 'can't go out and punch a guy in the face'. Even if they work as hard as their PvE hearts can, they can only access the BGS in 'read only' mode so any work they do won't even be reflected in their own little 'separate but solo' universe. That's rather a bummer. It removes PowerPlay and similar systems from the repertoire of what Solo/Group players can enjoy.
 
Yes. It's in AppConfig.xml.

View attachment 71836

You can override the setting using AppConfigLocal.xml too. But since this file gets deleted with updates :)mad:) it may just be easier to change the base file. I put my network settings into an AppConfigLocal.xml file now... but I keep a backup of it.

Thanks for the picture, now I wonder....... what's that one a few lines above do? "upnpenabled="1"

Looks like the "make open into solo button" to my untrained eye.
 
There is another issue with shadowbanning Solo players from affecting the BGS: They can't affect it, but when it affects them, they can't do anything about it -- and not just 'can't go out and punch a guy in the face'. Even if they work as hard as their PvE hearts can, they can only access the BGS in 'read only' mode so any work they do won't even be reflected in their own little 'separate but solo' universe. That's rather a bummer. It removes PowerPlay and similar systems from the repertoire of what Solo/Group players can enjoy.

Again...the BGS affects everything....and removing people from access to it, breaks the game completely. Creating a second BGS is a somewhat better, bad idea, because it would cause a forked story line...as CG's have affected the outcomes of various story lines. The only option the devs have is to continue down the path they have created. And they have stated this many times. They know there is a number of people that disagree, and have stated that...and they also state they do not care about those people's opinions. People need to understand this game will die...someday...with the modes exactly as they are...working as they currently are, but the modes will not be the death of the game....they will only be one reason of many...that cause the players to abandon the game. Just like any other game.
 
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If there are other ways that you're aware of (in the context of the game naturally) I would love to hear them. At this stage I can't even give someone else money outside of dumping cargo for them to pick up.

Well, about every other page in this thread from Mk I on up has explained that PowerPlay gives the options of fortifying & undermining. Everyone who plays the game has those options. You want another option, and that is to make PowerPlay work the way you want it to work, because you don't want to use the options everyone else has of countering opposition.
That is not the fault of group/solo players.

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(English isn't my native language. Explaining abstract concepts in a foreign language is difficult for me.)

I think you did a great job there :)
 
Oh, and one last though. For every player sitting in group/solo that you would like to oppose, there might be players in group/solo opposing what they are doing (accepting this doesn't apply to most community goals unless they are paired opposing ones or something). The BGS works both ways.

Exactly this. But this is not the answer the pewpew crowd wants or will accept.
 
Oh good, so it wouldn't be difficult for Frontier to implement it on a larger scale. That's fantastic.

Yep. Technically they were able to implement this from the start (something similar to Shadowban was first mentioned while the Kickstart was still running, with the promise to put griefers there), and despite that every time they talked about how solo players would interact with the Galaxy Simulation, they reassured us that Solo players would influence the BGS in general, and the events that would shape the galaxy in particular, just like the players in Open. Frontier has had the chance to adopt a different stance for three years already and never did so. I believe that counts for something :p

The only difference between the modes is the matchmaking, who you can meet; it has been like this from the very start. There is no extrinsic bonus or penalty for choosing any of the modes, neither in rewards nor in influence, and it has always been like this. For many of us that is among the best features of the game, and was well known far before launch.

And your preference impinges on mine, since there's nothing I can do about your actions in solo. I don't see how I'm being unreasonable.
Because the game was like this from the start, and if you actually did some small research on it you would have found it out before you purchased it. There was already a dev diary about it three years ago, so it's not new information either. To purchase a game and then demand a specific feature, enjoyed by many of its current players, be removed is highly unreasonable.

As, so you don't have an actual percentage of the players who only play for the BGS and would refuse to play in open. Just some vague numbers. I'm disappointed. For a second I thought you had a compelling argument.
The same way you don't have an percentage of players that want this kind of gameplay you are proposing. Which, BTW, is typically a low number industry-wise; even EVE, a game that theoretically revolves around player corporations and the fight for territory, has most of its players remaining unaligned soloists according to the devs themselves (as said during Fanfest 2014).

The same can be said for the counter argument of "make this change and you'll lose players", which has repeatedly been used in this thread. As you say there are no numbers, just opinions. It's also why I said they "could" gain more customers.

Really? Wasn't CCP itself that said, during Fanfest 2014, that most EVE players are unaligned soloists? And comes from EVE, a game whose main draw is supposedly to get into player corporations and fight for territory.

Not an isolated case, BTW. This kind of forced interaction tends to be a prime reason players leave a game, to such an extent that Ultima Online doubled its player base (by retaining more of the new players) after making PvP optional even though it lost almost all hardcore PvPers. Whereas consensual PvP like in CQC tends to be extremely popular, forced PvP tends to not be well received.

Granted, we don't have the ED numbers. Frontier — just like most other MMO companies — avoids releasing them. But given how (un)popular open PvP games tend to become, and how solo players influencing in all aspects of the BGS has been a feature all along since the very first sales pitch, I believe the changes you want would have a far higher chance of driving players away than of attracting them.




I guess this is the crux of it. And I generally feel the same way as you do. So apart from principle (that higher reward may not be justified), I don't really see why there would be an issue.

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Only with regard to player faction influence.

Both are ways of effectively declaring one mode to be the "correct" way to play — which is functionally identical do declaring all other modes as the "wrong" way to play. As such, I will always oppose extrinsic rewards for the modes.

I'm not against fixing perceived imbalances by tweaking the underlying rules, as long as the tweaks apply identically to all modes. But I'm dead set against any kind of bonus, exclusive content, etc for any of the modes.
 
Because that's not a direct counter. I have no way of knowing that player is doing something.

Yep, you don't know. So then you want "identifiers" to tell you the status of the other player, their faction, their business... you think that would happen normally? Especially when doing political dirty work (aka PowerPlay)? It doesn't even make sense. Spys and counter-revolutionaries seldom wear badges announcing what they're up to.


As it stands right now a player can harm my faction and there's nothing I can do about it. I can help my faction by continuing to do the same things with the BSG that I would likely do otherwise, but the player who is hurting my faction is free to do so with completely anonymity and no risk. I feel that's wrong.

Firstly, you keep repeating that there's nothing you can do to counter player's actions, despite the mechanics of the BGS, the instancing and the size of the galaxy explained to you repeatedly. In fact, the part I bolded up above is the answer, but you don't like it. And yes, don't like it is a feeling; you feel that it's wrong. Your other posts mock "feelings" so what's sauce for the goose and all that.

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I believe David has said before that he does not favour guilds bullying people out of certain areas of space and preventing them from accessing features in that region.

This is exactly the hidden core of all these anti-solo/group diatribes (my bold emphasis). It's the one danced around by a lot of convoluted "reasons" and excuses. The kind of thing that ruined EvE and other games for a lot of people.
 
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