Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Mouse]

Since some people seem to need a reminder..

Important rules for this thread​

The forum rules apply as usual in this thread, but we'd like to highlight some specific points:

• Stay polite and topic. Baiting, insulting or swearing will result in a direct infraction. No warnings, no nice private messages. Baiting includes dead horse references, use of the words "easy mode" or "carebear", accusations of griefing, and picture spam.

​

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I, for one, don't want Solo/PG to be removed.
A compromise to my earlier suggestion would be
to just seperate the save games.

You want to play solo? No problem, but please
don't carry the easy money over to open.

Also I'd like to see reduced influence in BGS.

I like the idea of high risk, high reward.
But as it is now, it feels like; same reward for different risks.

"You can play poker on table A, where the you only play against
robot players who always do the same and follow the same pattern
or play on table B against other humans."

"What is the difference in win rates on them?"

"Difference? No no, you have the same payouts on both tables"

With wings it is easier to make "Easy Money" in OPEN then it is in SOLO.

And your analogy is off.. Elite is more like a mountain.. you get a set reward for getting to each stage towards the summit and how you choose to climb the mountain is your choice, but no matter how you climb the reward is the same for each stage.

All the paths up are the same but,
Some choose to climb by themselves,
Some chose to climb together,
Some choose to climb near others,
Others choose to be competitive and combative with one another,
Some can even change which ascent they want to do.

No matter your ascent the payout is the same.

Your entire argument is that those that CHOSE to be competitive and combative should get a higher reward for their ascent over all others because of the way they CHOSE to make their ascent even though it was stated no matter what the payout was the same.

 

[Splitframe]

Since some people seem to need a reminder..

[/CENTER]

This feisty passive aggressiveness, I love it!

I really went back a page to see who infringed on the rules,
then I read them again. I can only imagine what went down
in the past if the term is explicitly stated.

But I guess it is to be expected if both sides seem to
defend their points of view like a cult.

Also I guess I'll retreat from the discussion.
I gave my "vote" for a seperation of any kind.
In hindsight that's all I wanted to do.

 

[Mouse]

This feisty passive aggressiveness, I love it!

I really went back a page to see who infringed on the rules,
then I read them again. I can only imagine what went down
in the past if the term is explicitly stated.

But I guess it is to be expected if both sides seem to
defend their points of view like a cult.

Also I guess I'll retreat from the discussion.
I gave my "vote" for a seperation of any kind.
In hindsight that's all I wanted to do.

Where is passive aggressiveness? Leto made comments that broke the rule, when you did as well I decided to post the rule as it seemed to have been forgotten or not read in the first place (as some people don't read from the beginning.)

And I would ask who is a cult? Those who feel their style of play deserves special treatment or those that realize that different play styles are valid and fight against repeated attempts to make one play style dominate over others?

 

[Dave1235]

<snip>

You want to play solo mode? No problem, but please
don't carry the easy money over to open.

Solo is hard mode, open normal and groups easy mode, in groups (and open) you can fly in a wing with 3 CMDR's, in solo you are alone. In groups and open you can wing up and get a bonus for trading, just for being in a wing, free credits just for flying in a group, easy mode with bonuses for nothing! in solo you can not!

Solo needs a buff, at least until FD bring in the AI wingmen, people should not be allowed to bring their "easy money" from abusing the wing trade mechanic in open and groups into solo mode.

Did I mention we need a PvE mode in the main menu? NO, OK then, We need a PvE option in the main login screen, and no, I don't care if it would mean people would leave open, that's the point, choice.

Let the >90% of people that own the game but do not use the forum realise they have other options too.

 

[Faded Glory]

The Aligned button lights up on the right of the HUD. They will also add a "BEEP" next as requested.
Anyways, please please rid SOLO/PRIVATE GROUP for any rank/financial progress. We need players to meet. You can simply use Block Player for all idiots that bother you.
Make the main game OPEN. Then allow complete interaction with NPC ships including demands for cargo and extra Wingmen, etc.

We don't need players to meet. Those that want to can, and those that don't aren't obliged to do something in a game that they don't wish to.

Complete interaction with NPCs already exists, they are across all modes, no difference at all between NPCs in Open or Solo / Group. You may be implying that NPCs should be made more 'intelligent', in which case I agree.

I get "proceed to boarding point" ? I am under the docking hole in the ship?

Yes, I got that too, and it was inactive anyway. I have raised a bug report on it, as on the third attempt I was able to re enter my ship. You do need to keep an eye on the right HUD which shows when you are aligned to re enter the ship, but I imagine the doors closing prematurely is a bug.

 

[Faded Glory]

I, for one, don't want Solo/PG to be removed.
A compromise to my earlier suggestion would be
to just seperate the save games.

You want to play solo mode? No problem, but please
don't carry the easy money over to open.

Also I'd like to see reduced influence in BGS.

I like the idea of high risk, high reward.
But as it is now, it feels like; same reward for different risks.

"You can play poker on table A, where the you only play against
robot players who always do the same and follow the same pattern
or play on table B against other humans."

"What is the difference in win rates on them?"

"Difference? No no, you have the same payouts on both tables"

Edit: To conform with forum rules against "baiting"

The idea of 'separate saves' has been suggested previously, and actually, while I doubt that anybody from the Solo / Group camp would object to it, there are two problems. First and foremost, you are asking FD to maintain two different games, which they clearly don't wish to do (nor likely do they have the resources to do), and secondly, many who ask for an Open only mode state that they want this so the 'galaxy' (game world) is more populated. The problem is that an Open only mode would likely be very sparsely populated, even less populated than Open is now.

The complaints would continue.

You like the idea of more reward for more risk, but it's purely subjective. If the game is too easy for you fighting NPCs, then you have the possibility to seek out and interact with like minded CMDRs, and that's great. There will obviously be plenty of other players not as accomplished as you for whom NPCs provide a great challenge, a great risk. Trying to force those players to play the game the way you want it played, or to be second class citizens if they don't wish to is not really reasonable, and would very likely just push them from the game, reducing revenue, and ultimately killing the game off.

Play the game the way you want, forget about the people you think you can't see. Some of them are probably on your side anyway.

 

[Noddie]

If the world seems too sparse....go and find some community goals.

 

[Leto Thule]

So you want to "hide yourself" by masking your IP and all so people can't do anything to you in real life.. but considered pretty much the same thing in game as "cheating" and then calling solo play "cowering" and that somehow you "earn" things more than others because of how you play..

Do you by chance know what hypocrisy is?

I wouldn't need to even think about it if others weren't discussing it. Get around me, I'll get around you type thing.

So anyhow... I just noticed I pulled that post from freaking months ago... Apologies for the necro.. I guess that's what I get for using my cell phone to read these forums.

And Dave... Yes... It was said "I don't make the cut" so that's where the response came from.

The other guy... I never said anything about modding the game. I said changing outside variables to affect the outcome of your in game experience. So, tell me if I'm correct here about the "fix" you theoretically introduce to your router: (hypothetical example here, bear with me..)

You fly into a system with me, and I interdicted you. Since this particular instance is open play, we can safely assume that it will be more than just my IP connecting to you via p2p? So would you know which is mine? If so, how do you determine that from the others?

Now, say you peg my IP in ten seconds and block my IP before we load grid together. Does this remove you from my grid? If it does, how do you say its not a cheat, and what exactly else would it be? Because the only thing I'll see.... Is nothing. Poof. Gone. I sure feel cheated here, alone in my pocket of profitless space, having spent my time waiting for a target, successfully used the in game tool to intercept him..

Then imagine I Google this, merely trying to find out what happened.. And stumbled upon this post. Do I feel cheated? Surely I do. I know you said you don't do it, and its just a possibility, but come on man, can't you at least see my point?

 

[relayer]

P2P networking means that your computer is directly linked to the other players you are instanced with.

And this is a good reason for Solo, if you ask me. Not everyone knows how to make a DMZ in a router for gaming or how to edit ips & etc (in fact, I'd guess the majority of ED players). Not all of us want our system linked to an anonymous person(s) & may have a security setup that precludes playing about in such an environment.

 

[Mouse]

I wouldn't need to even think about it if others weren't discussing it. Get around me, I'll get around you type thing.

So anyhow... I just noticed I pulled that post from freaking months ago... Apologies for the necro.. I guess that's what I get for using my cell phone to read these forums.

And Dave... Yes... It was said "I don't make the cut" so that's where the response came from.

The other guy... I never said anything about modding the game. I said changing outside variables to affect the outcome of your in game experience. So, tell me if I'm correct here about the "fix" you theoretically introduce to your router: (hypothetical example here, bear with me..)

You fly into a system with me, and I interdicted you. Since this particular instance is open play, we can safely assume that it will be more than just my IP connecting to you via p2p? So would you know which is mine? If so, how do you determine that from the others?

Now, say you peg my IP in ten seconds and block my IP before we load grid together. Does this remove you from my grid? If it does, how do you say its not a cheat, and what exactly else would it be? Because the only thing I'll see.... Is nothing. Poof. Gone. I sure feel cheated here, alone in my pocket of profitless space, having spent my time waiting for a target, successfully used the in game tool to intercept him..

Then imagine I Google this, merely trying to find out what happened.. And stumbled upon this post. Do I feel cheated? Surely I do. I know you said you don't do it, and its just a possibility, but come on man, can't you at least see my point?

Are you cheated if the game puts you in a different instance, if someone is in solo or group and in the same system as you? When the original post was posted it was in reference to the "proposed" forcing everyone to play in Open against their will so that PVPers had targets and how it could be countered. So you feel cheated if someone did that with their router, but what about those who are forced to play in "your space" who had no desire to? Were they not cheated out of their gameplay to be your gameplay?

Most of us believe in people playing how they want to, the post you necroed (and hey it happens) was because some feel that we do NOT have the right to play how we want to but are here for their enjoyment and should be made to play in their space so that they had targets. These people don't want to PVP.. they want to dominate, because apparently it is more fun attacking and blowing up those who have no desire to fight.

 

[Leto Thule]

Where is passive aggressiveness? Leto made comments that broke the rule, when you did as well I decided to post the rule as it seemed to have been forgotten or not read in the first place (as some people don't read from the beginning.)

And I would ask who is a cult? Those who feel their style of play deserves special treatment or those that realize that different play styles are valid and fight against repeated attempts to make one play style dominate over others?

Wait what? What rule did I break? There are specific examples cited and I'm fairly certain I used none of them. If I did, apologies.

Edit: in reply to the above, I'm with you on being able to play how you want. I don't want to force anyone into open mode, the only issue I saw was the discussion of granting bonus stats of some sort to open mode, and then circumventing other players while in it.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I know you said you don't do it, and its just a possibility, but come on man, can't you at least see my point?

Of course I do, and I completely sympathise.

However, there are whole guilds out there sharing IP lists to lulzbann (or worse) for the erm, urm, lulz. Have a good moan at them Your average CMDR who would want to continue his/her Solo experience in the event of a forced Open Only transition is the absolute least of your worries

 

[relayer]

Wait what? What rule did I break? There are specific examples cited and I'm fairly certain I used none of them. If I did, apologies.

Well, I'll pop in to say that Page 1 of this Forum (and the general forum rules) give specific examples of what a RL legal team would call "fighting words" or "calling out;" that is, using loaded terms [such as 'easy mode' 'carebear' etc]. I suggest reading at least Page 1 of this debate.

Edit: in reply to the above, I'm with you on being able to play how you want. I don't want to force anyone into open mode, the only issue I saw was the discussion of granting bonus stats of some sort to open mode, and then circumventing other players while in it.

Then you have no need to argue - you agree with most of the players on this forum, to wit:

1. No forcing anyone into any specific style of gameplay. Everyone gets to play their preferred way.

2. All the "circumventing" talk and bother is just a theoretical* answer to the 'force everyone into open' pvpers.
*Theoretical, that is, unless you've purchased a modern so-called 'gaming router' in which case the router is doing it for you and all you had to do was push one "I use this network for gaming" profile configs.

If you're really interested in this issue, I suggest reading a double-handful of random posts from this very old & extensive thread.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Theoretical, that is, unless you've purchased a modern so-called 'gaming router' in which case the router is doing it for you and all you had to do was push one "I use this network for gaming" profile configs.

"Gaming Routers" are for absolute noob scrubs Disgusting things that should be completely wiped out!

 

[Mouse]

Wait what? What rule did I break? There are specific examples cited and I'm fairly certain I used none of them. If I did, apologies.

Edit: in reply to the above, I'm with you on being able to play how you want. I don't want to force anyone into open mode, the only issue I saw was the discussion of granting bonus stats of some sort to open mode, and then circumventing other players while in it.

I posted the rule in another post

Originally Posted by Jenner

Important rules for this thread​

The forum rules apply as usual in this thread, but we'd like to highlight some specific points:

• Stay polite and topic. Baiting, insulting or swearing will result in a direct infraction. No warnings, no nice private messages. Baiting includes dead horse references, use of the words "easy mode" or "carebear", accusations of griefing, and picture spam.

The rules in question were your referral to Solo being Easy mode/game

Again, I'm not on either side. You like solo play, play solo. Best game easy game?

and though it doesn't specifically say it.. accusing someone of being in solo because they were cowering is in line with easy mode/carebear.. etc.

No combat logging, no IP blocking, and learning from my mistakes rather being in solo.

(which was already edited Last edited by Brett C; Yesterday at 11:05 PM. Reason: inflammatory content (baiting posts) - please avoid this thank you" to "being"

The rules came about sadly because some felt that unless others play their way they were inferior and they began to bait people. Hey I've been nailed for flame baiting as well without meaning too. Edits are much better than other actions taken ^,^.

As for the bonus stats argument, it is mostly showing that if one mode of play was given bonus stats (say the "risk" of open) then it is something that can be easily circumvented and exploited. This thread has been going on for a long time and sadly every time we think it is going to die someone else pops up and thinks their way of play is superior to others and they deserve higher rewards, exp, etc.. or that their way of play is in jeopardy because people can play in other modes or effect the BGS and they can not see them to kill them. Or the ones who I tangle the most with that feel that everyone should be in one mode because they paid to play the game and they should have people to shoot at even if those people don't want them too... strangely enough though many times they apparently don't want people who can shoot back at them.. so I'm not sure why they call it PVP.. when what they want is Player vs helpless victim.

Now you mention combat loggers... I have mixed views on this... I've seen some of the trash talk about Combat loggers, but after watching the videos where groups jump one person and don't even give them a chance to defend themselves then they call them a coward when they log.. I don't blame em for logging.. that isn't PVP.. it is mob mentality. If someone can only play the game if in a large group in order to survive than we've regressed to Eve in a cockpit..

Now if it was a one on one and someone did it just to avoid loosing.. I can see the reason for being irked at them and rightly so.. but sadly most of the time it is overwhelming force against someone who has no chance to do anything other than die.. yet the person who logged is derided as a coward.. and many times these are the same people who use the same word against those of us who are traders and fly in any mode but open.

I keep hoping that someday these people may learn what PVP really is and try it, though I feel they will have a hard time feeling comfortable with a fair and even fight. Either way.. I won't be their prey or adversary, I don't PVP nor will I be forced into it.



Edit: sheeesh I type to slow sometimes

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

The idea of 'separate saves' has been suggested previously, and actually, while I doubt that anybody from the Solo / Group camp would object to it,…

I do object against separate saves. I like to play open and I like to play in solo mode. Two separate saves would force me to choose one mode as I don't have the time, energy and motivation to "level up" two separate CMDRs.

The concept of free mode switching and one BGS for everybody is very good in my opinion. It allows player to play the way they want at any time. In my opinion it it the possibility of mode switching that results in more players in Open Mode.

Without the ability to mode switch I would only play Solo Mode. I would miss the cool Open Mode events like the Hutton Orbital Truckers Convoys, the fun interaction between CMDRs at CGs and all the other fun stuff in Open Mode - but for me those things are so rare and the unwanted interactions in Open so annoying that I would without a second thought play Solo only if forced to choose.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I do object against separate saves. I like to play open and I like to play in solo mode. Two separate saves would force me to choose one mode as I don't have the time, energy and motivation to "level up" two separate CMDRs.

The concept of free mode switching and one BGS for everybody is very good in my opinion. It allows player to play the way they want at any time. In my opinion it it the possibility of mode switching that results in more players in Open Mode.

Without the ability to mode switch I would only play Solo Mode. I would miss the cool Open Mode events like the Hutton Orbital Truckers Convoys, the fun interaction between CMDRs at CGs and all the other fun stuff in Open Mode - but for me those things are so rare and the unwanted interactions in Open so annoying that I would without a second thought play Solo only if forced to choose.

I am also rather content with the core game features in the game design as published in the Kickstarter (over three years ago now).

If I *had* to choose one game mode only then it would be Private Groups - in my own Private Group I could play "Solo", I could play in any of the other existing Private Groups and, in time, I would expect that a pseudo-Open Private Group would gain popularity among those who liked playing in Open but were not prepared to be locked into it.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

…

I like the idea of high risk, high reward.
But as it is now, it feels like; same reward for different risks.

…

Remove wings form the game. Balance the ships, adjust combat mechanics and introduce a meaningful justice system - then the risk in Open might be similar to the risk in Solo Mode.

Avoiding any risk that could arise form meeting an other CMDR can be reduced to zero in Open mode. There is simply no higher risk in open mode that justifies a higher reward. There are things that would justify a lower reward in Open Mode compared to Solo Mode - I'm against such buff/nerf of modes, I think they should be completely equal.

The problem of mode switching is only within the minds of those who demand that mode switching shouldn't be allowed. Some imaginary un-fairnesses, assumed advantages and maybe the feeling of entitlement and "the right way to do".

It's all an illusion. ED is not a open world sandbox "everybody on the same server" game. It's not even a PvP game. It's a PvE game that allows players to attack other players with PvE ships and a PvE combat mechanic and PvE game design, fighting for PvE rewards.
It doesn't matter what rank, how many credits, what faction the CMDR is aligned to or to whom the CMDR has pledged. It has (almost) no effect on the game - PvP has no effect on the game. The game is PvE.

Enjoy the PvP you can have within this game, but don't expect the game to be changed to a PvP game as it would require a complete rewrite of the game. The Solo vs. Open Mode debate is just a reflection of the real, fundamental aspects of the game. It's a debate of complete insignificance, changing anything related to the modes will change the fundamental aspects of this game. It won't make more players visible to you, it won't make your interaction with the BGS more meaningful, it won't make some things that some PvP players dream about possible.

 

[Jockey79]

Yeah I don't make the cut because I disagree with you? I must be a terrible person.

Sorry, you are altering out of game settings to remove obstacles to your play. That's cheating.

Dave- no, I wasn't around for that. I took about a year break in hopes the game would be fixed in some areas that I was annoyed with (trade map..ugh..). Yes I didn't know that part at all. However doing the opposite isn't removing obstacles from your play... So no I wouldn't call it a cheat.

Again, I'm not on either side. You like solo play, play solo. Best game easy game?

You really struggle to comprehend don't you.

I do not alter anything, I stated (so have others) that if FD try forced open (or giving open bonuses), it can be bypassed and how.
No one is actually doing it and no one has said they currently do it (as there is no need). We are explaining it can be and will be done if FD go back on the promise of us playing with who we want.

And you don't make the cut, because I don't know you - I play with people I know.
If that upsets you, well that is you tough luck to be frank.
I play this game with my friends, you are not one of them - you are a random person on the internet.

If I wanted to be surrounded by random people I'm going to ignore, I'd go in to town for the day, not play on my PC.

Remember, this game is sold as a "Single / Co-op" game as well as an "MMO"
I want to play it co-op with folks I know, not with random people on the internet.

And I can only assume you're in full "troll" mode as you insist on throwing the word "cheat" about despite having it explained over and over to pack it in.
So just reporting it now, as you've chosen to be constantly offensive.

 

[Urthor]

Balancing the risks between open and solo by making open less dangerous seems very back to front. Far better to just have open as a more hardcore experience, and nerf all monetary gains in solo/private by 10% to encourage players to come to open and risk themselves in open play. You could also buff open I guess, but I feel compressing the game's money grind isn't on Frontier's agenda.

Interacting with other players is a good thing, but atm people aren't rewarded for it.