Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

Do you want a Open PvE

  • Yes, I want a Open PvE

    Votes: 54 51.4%
  • No, I don't want a Open PvE

    Votes: 49 46.7%
  • I want only Open PvE and PvP only in groups

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    105
  • Poll closed .
Status
Thread Closed: Not open for further replies.
I probably won't participate in powerplay unless it becomes an open only mode or if it has portions that can only be affected by participation in open. This is the only way I feel you can appease the debate. I refuse to believe it would take three threads to come to the conclusion that you could allow a certain percentage of triggers to be fulfilled offline and a certain percentage to be fulfilled only in open. This would mean once the cap for the offline triggers is met the rest would have to be done in open. I am pretty certain, as much as anyone thinks that Powerplay is PVE only, that it was intentionally designed to increase activity between players in open. This includes the major professions and pvp. Does powerplay add additional depth to group/solo? Kind-of but with the AI unfinished, not really.

woah there fella. Your not the only person to have spent money on this game, so I'm not totally sure why you feel justified in saying that a large part of it should be unavailable to players who bought it on the premise they can play it in solo.


This is the only way I feel you can appease the debate.
Not sure how removing content I paid for is appeasing the debate. Can you elaborate on how you will reimburse players for the content you will remove?
 
Read on for a potential resolution (that has probably been suggested before and isn't bacon).

<<<<--- snip repeated argument that has been responded to again and again ---->>>>

If you want to incentify open make a change like this.

And it starts again......

Power Play is PvE as evidenced by there being no rewards for any PvP action and all its features reward PvE only - short of a Dev knocking your front door and slapping you in the face with these words attached at a brick, we cannot spell it out any clearer for you.

There is no "offline" - so all your "offline" things are pointless. Solo is still an Online Mode.

You can "refused to believe" whatever you like - Frontier Developments have clearly stated, more than once - this is the game they want to make and they are not changing it. The reason we have 3 threads on the topic is because people like you do not read the active thread properly or the older threads for research and post things like you have - despite it was all ready covered and swept away with the Dev quotes where they say they are not changing it and it is in fact balanced.

Also, for every one of you claiming there is no griefing or limited griefing / unwanted PvP - there are more stories of why people are leaving open due to griefing / unwanted PvP than people defending it. I get fed up at times seeing seeing the sob stories on the forums and no longer read them - as it is normally players who knew better than to take a expensive ship in to Open in the first place, but do it anyway. Laughing at them is not nice (so I'm told).
I do feel sorry for new players who suffer that, but that is the fault of FD for not putting a warning label on the Open Mode selection in the menu.

i am very cynical about these postings.

i get the feeling that they understand the situation fully and make these posts in hope of undermining the currently working open/group/solo configuration.
in fact the complaints of griefers about the lack of targets makes it look like the mode system is working.

{this situation also hurts decent pirate RP's like jordan cobalt i am sorry to say.}

they KNOW that PP is not changed by PVP combat, and they want PP as an excuse for griefing.
they KNOW that they can do the same things that all other players are doing in PP regardless of mode, but they refuse.

there is no reason to explain it to them.

they understand it all, they just want more soft targets forced into open.
 
i am very cynical about these postings.

i get the feeling that they understand the situation fully and make these posts in hope of undermining the currently working open/group/solo configuration.
in fact the complaints of griefers about the lack of targets makes it look like the mode system is working.

{this situation also hurts decent pirate RP's like jordan cobalt i am sorry to say.}

they KNOW that PP is not changed by PVP combat, and they want PP as an excuse for griefing.
they KNOW that they can do the same things that all other players are doing in PP regardless of mode, but they refuse.

there is no reason to explain it to them.

they understand it all, they just want more soft targets forced into open.
It's a shame the forum isn't linked to your commander account. At least then you'd have an idea on how many of these are legit
 
i am very cynical about these postings.

i get the feeling that they understand the situation fully and make these posts in hope of undermining the currently working open/group/solo configuration.
in fact the complaints of griefers about the lack of targets makes it look like the mode system is working.

{this situation also hurts decent pirate RP's like jordan cobalt i am sorry to say.}

they KNOW that PP is not changed by PVP combat, and they want PP as an excuse for griefing.
they KNOW that they can do the same things that all other players are doing in PP regardless of mode, but they refuse.

there is no reason to explain it to them.

they understand it all, they just want more soft targets forced into open.

I'd argue that killing someone depraves them of time they would have spent undermining/fortifying/w.e and also nullifies their so current efforts since combat merits do get lost upon death and the same goes for cargo contracts.

So it does indeed have the potential to affect PP. Just not as directly as everyone seems to have the illusion they are entitled to.
 
i am very cynical about these postings.

i get the feeling that they understand the situation fully and make these posts in hope of undermining the currently working open/group/solo configuration.
in fact the complaints of griefers about the lack of targets makes it look like the mode system is working.

{this situation also hurts decent pirate RP's like jordan cobalt i am sorry to say.}

they KNOW that PP is not changed by PVP combat, and they want PP as an excuse for griefing.
they KNOW that they can do the same things that all other players are doing in PP regardless of mode, but they refuse.

there is no reason to explain it to them.

they understand it all, they just want more soft targets forced into open.

I hear what you are saying.
I also do not trust forums accounts that are created and then left for months on end. Why make one and not use it?
You don't need one to read the forums, only to post - so you make an account then leave it.... yeah??? Right???

Screams alt account to me.

I'd relax a bit more if FD made it so you need to register your game key to be able to post, I get a feeling some users would vanish suddenly.
But at least then we could be sure posters would be actual game owners not trolls or alts just looking for something to do.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a shame the forum isn't linked to your commander account. At least then you'd have an idea on how many of these are legit

You ninja :p
 
I hear what you are saying.
I also do not trust forums accounts that are created and then left for months on end. Why make one and not use it?
You don't need one to read the forums, only to post - so you make an account then leave it.... yeah??? Right???

Screams alt account to me.

I'd relax a bit more if FD made it so you need to register your game key to be able to post, I get a feeling some users would vanish suddenly.
But at least then we could be sure posters would be actual game owners not trolls or alts just looking for something to do.

- - - Updated - - -



You ninja :p

something other than my commander name, i have deleted several saves and used a new name each time.
but yes account specific for posting would eliminate these.
however:
if put to a vote i would vote no because i don't like restrictions placed on everyone just to deal with the shallow end of the gene pool.
i am not an anarchist, i just don't like having fools be the cause of restrictions placed on the actions of decent folk.
 
I hear what you are saying.
I also do not trust forums accounts that are created and then left for months on end. Why make one and not use it?
You don't need one to read the forums, only to post - so you make an account then leave it.... yeah??? Right???

Screams alt account to me.

I'd relax a bit more if FD made it so you need to register your game key to be able to post, I get a feeling some users would vanish suddenly.
But at least then we could be sure posters would be actual game owners not trolls or alts just looking for something to do.
Keep in mind that these aren't actually specific Elite: Dangerous forums, but subforums of the Frontier forums, which also covers all of FD's other games, like LostWinds for iOS and Wii, or Roller Coaster Tycoon, which do not require a game account.

Secondly, I don't know if you have ever heard about this 10/10 distribution (or whatever it's actually called). It basically says that empirically, you can expect only about 10% of all users of a certain product (e.g. a game) to create a corresponding forum account, and only about 10% of these ever become active in this forum. So, a large number of quiet or only rarely active accounts is normal.
 
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The reason the meta is what it is, is because of a number of design choices, lack of content, poorly made content, and lack of balance of the game.

-Trade ships need every once of jump range it can get so properly equipping them is out. Even once properly equipped, they are still made of paper.

-Npcs pose no challenge, they are teaching new players to not worry if they are properly equipped or not, and gives them a false sense of security in open.

-Lack of ways to find willing or unwilling but justified pvp. More than a fair few players turn griefer when they can't find any fair fights.

-Pve piracy being worse than the pvp kind. Noone in their right mind bothers with npcs, when players are cash piñatas.

-Terrible non lethal piracy, limpets are crap, hatching someone is pointless. That just leads to the cargo or die approach, instead of the cargo? No, I'll just take it, approach.

-Lack of punishment for murder. There is nothing stopping players from killing everyone.

-Lack of ways for the bounty hunter protectors to find the killers and pirates.

The meta is only playing itself out this way, because it has no other choice. The sheer number of imbalance issue and missing content it what's skewing the meta.


- Trade ships have always been weakers, usually unarmed.

- I call false on NPC's posing no challenge. Yes to some people they are not, but to most of us they are. They are trying to balance so that new players are not overwhelmed by them and seasoned players like yourself have a challenge but it is hard to do. So they err on the side of caution and keep them so newer players won't be overwhelmed.

- IF you all would police the griefers then things may improve. It isn't FD's problem, People wanted an open PVP mode and they got it. If poeple want others to stay in it they need to fix the problem they created. I do agree they need to do more against hackers, but that is a different issue and not from personal experience just reading other's frustrations.

- I agree PVE piracy needs to be upgraded to make juicy targets and possibly harder "convoys" for pirates to crack

- Have not used limpets so if they are broken it would be nice for them to be fixed.

- I love the idea that if someone kills another player that is clean that the cost to replace the killed players ship be added to the killers insurance, and maybe the cost of cargo, data, etc. Something like this I'd loved to see implimented.

- What are your ideas for Bounty Hunters? And could there be an implementation of ways to pay others for services such as escorting and such?

- - - Updated - - -

i am very cynical about these postings.

i get the feeling that they understand the situation fully and make these posts in hope of undermining the currently working open/group/solo configuration.
in fact the complaints of griefers about the lack of targets makes it look like the mode system is working.

{this situation also hurts decent pirate RP's like jordan cobalt i am sorry to say.}

they KNOW that PP is not changed by PVP combat, and they want PP as an excuse for griefing.
they KNOW that they can do the same things that all other players are doing in PP regardless of mode, but they refuse.

there is no reason to explain it to them.

they understand it all, they just want more soft targets forced into open.


This has been stated before and quite frankly I've always wondered if it was true.
 
Keep in mind that these aren't actually specific Elite: Dangerous forums, but subforums of the Frontier forums, which also covers all of FD's other games, like LostWinds for iOS and Wii, or Roller Coaster Tycoon, which do not require a game account.

Secondly, I don't know if you have ever heard about this 10/10 distribution (or whatever it's actually called). It basically says that empirically, you can expect only about 10% of all users of a certain product (e.g. a game) to create a corresponding forum account, and only about 10% of these ever become active in this forum. So, a large number of quiet or only rarely active accounts is normal.

Robert Maynard said:
Given that the 90/9/1 "rule" seems to apply to these forums too (90% never come here; 9% register and make very few posts; 1% register and participate), even these forums cannot be taken as representative - especially as there is no requirement to own the game to register here (or comment on the game on reddit for that matter).

<snip>
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=145309&page=509&p=2509385#post2509385


Not that we've covered that ;)
 
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Nonya

Banned
I think I'll just wait and bit and eventually go to Star Citizen for when I want my PvP fix and to No Man's Sky for when I want my exploration fix.
If I want a "kicked in the junk" fix, I'll boot up Elite: Dangerous.
 
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I think I'll just wait and bit and eventually go to Star Citizen for when I want my PvP fix and to No Man's Sky for when I want my exploration fix.
If I want a "kicked in the junk" fix, I'll boot up Elite: Dangerous.


Clearly shows how you still have no idea about the game...
 
I think I'll just wait and bit and eventually go to Star Citizen for when I want my PvP fix and to No Man's Sky for when I want my exploration fix.
If I want a "kicked in the junk" fix, I'll boot up Elite: Dangerous.

Clearly not aware of the PvE <> PvP slider SC has or that people can play on private servers away from the PU.

Well, will have when it comes out.... around 2400AD :p
 
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-Trade ships need every once of jump range it can get so properly equipping them is out. Even once properly equipped, they are still made of paper.

Anacondas & Pythons are most assuredly not made of paper. I chose a bit less cargo to be properly fitted (keeping pirates in mind) Also, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the modes discussion.


-Npcs pose no challenge, they are teaching new players to not worry if they are properly equipped or not, and gives them a false sense of security in open.

So gankers and murderers are a teaching experience? LOL.


-Lack of ways to find willing or unwilling but justified pvp. More than a fair few players turn griefer when they can't find any fair fights.

So it is our fault that there's no one in open and we cause grievers? Double LOL.

-Pve piracy being worse than the pvp kind. Noone in their right mind bothers with npcs, when players are cash piñatas.

This has been discussed and, for the most part, people do think the cargo of NPCs should be improved. But this is not a modes problem. Also, what do you think possible open players will think when they see they are only considered 'cash piñatas? Here's a guess: "ohellno." Also, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the modes discussion.

-Terrible non lethal piracy, limpets are crap, hatching someone is pointless. That just leads to the cargo or die approach, instead of the cargo? No, I'll just take it, approach.

So players are responsible for making pirates kill them? What a knee-slapper. Also, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the modes discussion.


-Lack of punishment for murder. There is nothing stopping players from killing everyone.

This has also been discussed and agreed on by people in the thread. People agree there should be more penalty for pointless murder. Also, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the modes discussion.

The meta is only playing itself out this way, because it has no other choice. The sheer number of imbalance issue and missing content it what's skewing the meta.

Well, except for 2 of your points (duly noted), I can only think that the modes are working as planned.
 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=rOYhoFYIWmw#t=379 (around 20 minutes in)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JYRyhxYhI&list=PL7glm5rbPHKyBblUEjmm2PFkwJ4ykuz6s&index=18

In both videos he refers to "vigilantism" regarding griefing and talks about the bounty system as a way of keeping player killers under control (he uses the "balance" in relation as well).
Those are FDs fixes for griefing - giving the players the tools needed to deal with it themselves ;)

Or mode swap :p

Thanks! +rep!
 
I think I'll just wait and bit and eventually go to Star Citizen for when I want my PvP fix and to No Man's Sky for when I want my exploration fix.
If I want a "kicked in the junk" fix, I'll boot up Elite: Dangerous.


"kicked in the junk" fix? . . . fly to Solitude in EVE.
 
I think I'll just wait and bit and eventually go to Star Citizen for when I want my PvP fix and to No Man's Sky for when I want my exploration fix.
If I want a "kicked in the junk" fix, I'll boot up Elite: Dangerous.

Have you seen the thread over there - the equivalent of this one?

I'd wait till till you see the player interaction slider in action before you bank on your PVP fix.
 
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Clearly not aware of the PvE <> PvP slider SC has or that people can play on private servers away from the PU.

Well, will have when it comes out.... around 2400AD :p

Someone being not aware of the PvP-slider or the possibility of private servers in SC would surprise me, as on both themes there have been many discussions in the SC forums.^^

I hope, the release will be a little bit earlier than 2400 - as I am looking forward to play SC as well... on a private server (just like I'm "hiding" in Elite's Solo-mode). :p
 
Adding the cost of the ship to the pirates insurance punishes a broad group of players by lumping them all together to solve a problem created by a subset of those players.


You shouldn't punish a pirate for being a pirate. The game is called Elite: Dangerous... dangerous as in it has pirates in it. Punitive measures should be focused against players for being , and playing in ways that are not in the interests of the greater game as a whole, not for playing the game as a pirate.


Pirates are supposed to be the bad guys. They are supposed to steal your lunch money. Every good narrative has needs an antagonist to play the part of a villain.



I see a lot of effort put into suggestions aimed at discouraging or preventing a certain type of behavior by a direct penalty or rule. Very little thought is put into encouraging the natural counter behavior to balance it out. If pirate behavior appears common among players, perhaps it is because there isn't enough incentive for police and bounty hunting behavior from players. Instead of leveling a direct penalty against a pirate for being a pirate, reward the opposite, by paying players for stopping pirates trying to prey on their fellow players. It's like having a flower garden infested with aphids . You could use a harsh pesticides which would deal with the aphids, but have consequences for every thing else in the garden, including the gardener... or you could introduce lady bugs into the garden, the natural predator of aphids.

That is what the bounty system is supposed to do. The more a player pirates, the higher the bounty on them becomes until it reaches a tipping point where stopping that player becomes worth the time of a bounty hunter. Ideally, you are not directly penalizing a the pirate to stop themselves, but motivating players to stop the pirate.

The question is, is the way the Bounty System implemented effectively motivating players to balance out the natural order of roles in the game? Should more incentives be created? Higher rewards, different rewards, additional benefits?

Are the rewards sufficient, but the tools and means to capitalize on them lacking in the game? Can a player be an effective bounty hunter? I get the feeling that no, one can not. It is difficult to make a determined effort as a bounty hunter that isn't haphazard in nature, doesn't pay off well enough to justify the effort and doesn't effect the natural order of the game in the right way, at the right time and in the right places where it is needed most.

For example, I check the Bounty Board in Open Mode, I see the top CMDR listed as having a bounty of $85,000... is it worth my time to scour the game world for hours looking for a player that might not be even online, might not even be playing Open-Mode or may never be instanced with me while playing? Or I could spend 15 minutes in a conflict zone and earn 3 times that amount cashing in combat bonds I'm certain to make.

Players in any game will ultimately behave in a manor consistent with producing a predictable amount of fun in return for the effort put into playing the game.

The challenge of designing an open world game that is different than other crafted game experiences is in balancing out what motivates players to play in an open world in the first place. Which means acknowledging that players all play a game with different motivations and the point of an open world game is to create a menagerie that sustains itself out of all the different types of players . The design objective isn't in telling the players what motivations they can have, but letting them explore what ever motivates them to play they have in a way that doesn't outright oppose or collapse the experience as a whole.


Interesting to me is that often a discussion of why players won't play in an open world revolves another degenerate behavior that is likely to be encountered in the game. Degenerate behavior among players is often a result of players attempting to motivate themselves to have fun when they can't otherwise find a more legitimate style of play.

I think it also appears not because of genuinely bad behavior demonstrated by players, but as a result of a game world that can not cope in its design with naturally conflicting motivations to play in a way that is acceptable enough that players will coexist and compromise with each other.

And of course, some players just want to watch the world burn.
 
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Have you seen the thread over there - the equivalent of this one?

I'd wait till till you see the player interaction slider in action before you bank on your PVP fix.

This is what really confuses me about part of the PvP community now, it has been clear for a long time that online gaming is moving in such a way where each player can choose who they interact with.

Elite Dangerous, Shroud of the Avatar use the same system, Star Citizens is not that different really.
Heck, even Star Trek Online (over 5 years old now) uses an instance system for general missions where you can jump in to open groups on a per mission basis and jump back out into a solo instance for missions - at will and has dedicated PvP areas within the main game (Kerrat for example). It is only the end game raid content they force you to interact with other people.
You can get to max level in World of Warcraft without ever playing alongside anyone else.

These annoying people are their own worst enemy, and yet complain as games evolve to deal with their actions.
 
This is what really confuses me about part of the PvP community now, it has been clear for a long time that online gaming is moving in such a way where each player can choose who they interact with.

Elite Dangerous, Shroud of the Avatar use the same system, Star Citizens is not that different really.
Heck, even Star Trek Online (over 5 years old now) uses an instance system for general missions where you can jump in to open groups on a per mission basis and jump back out into a solo instance for missions - at will and has dedicated PvP areas within the main game (Kerrat for example). It is only the end game raid content they force you to interact with other people.
You can get to max level in World of Warcraft without ever playing alongside anyone else.

These annoying people are their own worst enemy, and yet complain as games evolve to deal with their actions.

The threads over there are by and large the same as they are here.

The most noticeable difference is the lack of controller issues here which is massive over there.

We used to get the yaw threads here but they've gone the way of the Dodo.

But the PVE/PVP thing is identical and my guess is that anyone expecting a PVP paradise over there is in for a rude awakening.

Just a guess mind...
 
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