Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread - Mk III

[Seonid]

I cant really say I blame the solo players for fighting so hard in regards to keeping the modes integrated, they are sitting on the golden goose.

I'm guessing you didn't read the FD posts in the OP?

 

[why fi at all]

I seriously cannot fathom how FD thinks doing PP in solo is even allowed. That is a straight up MMO activity, which is being exploited when being played solo. In solo mode you have the ability to build risk free fortunes, which then can be used to purchase nomination. You can do preparations or expansions with no risk of interference by other factions, or destabilize another faction with no risk.

I am assuming FD doesnt have previous MMO experience, otherwise they would see the damage they are doing to Power Play be keeping the status quo..

I cant really say I blame the solo players for fighting so hard in regards to keeping the modes integrated, they are sitting on the golden goose.

at the moment that we point out that your false statement about solo being risk free is just a lie, the rest of what you have to say means nothing.

 

[Jockey79]

I'm guessing you didn't read the FD posts in the OP?

I don't think any person new to the thread read the first page right from page 2 onwards.
In the last thread I had a massive wall of information on the first page and had to re-quote quite early on.

 

[lightSaberAddiCt]

at the moment that we point out that your false statement about solo being risk free is just a lie, the rest of what you have to say means nothing.

Seriously what risk is there in solo besides NPCs which are no risk at all compared to getting jumped by a player. Now if I am mistaken about solo players being able to affect PP, then say so, and I will stand corrected. But if they can, then that is exploiting an MMO mini game where others have more risk in open.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Seriously what risk is there in solo besides NPCs which are no risk at all compared to getting jumped by a player. Now if I am mistaken about solo players being able to affect PP, then say so, and I will stand corrected. But if they can, then that is exploiting an MMO mini game where others have more risk in open.

lulz

There is plenty of risk in solo. Just as much as in Open. Open players have it easier as they can form wings for righteous pew-pew. There is no exploit in Solo, you can play the game and participate in CG / PP stuff if you so choose - all modes affect the background simulation equally.

The only thing that some people are concerned about is simply "These peeps are playing the game, and I can't shoot them!" - that is all it boils down to. What usually follows is some kind of statement that "If OPEN had a bonus to X Activity - MOAR peeps would play in OPEN or GAEM is DEAD!"

While this makes some sense to those people who don't understand how things work, it doesn't work - and it never will. You cannot offer any bonus to Open only players - as you cannot control Open. It is merely a function of the matchmaker and the ability of peers to connect to each other.

 

[Lann]

Seriously what risk is there in solo besides NPCs which are no risk at all compared to getting jumped by a player. Now if I am mistaken about solo players being able to affect PP, then say so, and I will stand corrected. But if they can, then that is exploiting an MMO mini game where others have more risk in open.

Well, you are wrong sice elite dangerous isnt an MMO. Its a single player with multiplayer characteristics.

 

[Jockey79]

Seriously what risk is there in solo besides NPCs which are no risk at all compared to getting jumped by a player. Now if I am mistaken about solo players being able to affect PP, then say so, and I will stand corrected. But if they can, then that is exploiting an MMO mini game where others have more risk in open.

There are players that are worse than NPCs for combat, so they suffer the greatest risk.
Power Play was designed to be played in all modes, as confirmed by the Devs, so it cannot be an exploit. It is a PvE concept designed to be played by anyone who wants to play it, if they have the spare time or resources to do so.

The game does have tutorial videos and written manuals explaining all of this, you may want to look them up.

www.elitedangerous.com
www.youtube.com

 

[Jockey79]

Well, you are wrong sice elite dangerous isnt an MMO. Its a single player with multiplayer characteristics.

It is advertised and sold as an MMO on their website and on the Steam Store.
It fits under a technical definition, but not by common worldly standards of what we expect an MMO to be.

- - - Updated - - -

It's happening everywhere but here. I wonder why?

Howdy, long time no see.
Hope you've been keeping well?
Welcome to MkIII

 

[Lann]

It is advertised and sold as an MMO on their website and on the Steam Store.
It fits under a technical definition, but not by common worldly standards of what we expect an MMO to be.

- - - Updated - - -



Howdy, long time no see.
Hope you've been keeping well?
Welcome to MkIII

You are right but the game is sold as a single player too. How can be considered playing in solo as an exploit, if it is the core game design?

 

[Hempstead]

It is advertised and sold as an MMO on their website and on the Steam Store.
It fits under a technical definition, but not by common worldly standards of what we expect an MMO to be.

What's the common worldly standards of MMOs? Did I miss the memo?

 

[Jockey79]

I'm keeping great. Been active in other threads and communities that arn't an echo chamber. Going to accuse me of being an alt or a mindless Pew Pew?

Wow, I try being polite and you're right off on the defensive - this is why people don't bother being nice, it ends up being a waste of effort.

Also, I think you'll find most game communities become echo chambers, try picking apart core game features for any game on their official forums and you'll soon suffer the wrath of those who use it / like it.

I went back over to the Star Trek Online forums recently and seen the Dev praise going on that was out of this world, despite clear proof of the Devs deliberately misleading the community for years. All games have their fanatical supporters regardless of how good or bad the game is.

You are right but the game is sold as a single player also. How can be considered playing in solo as an exploit, if it is the core game design?

Anyone with half a braincell or more understands that the modes are part of the game and not an exploit, I was just explaining that the game is also an MMO (technically) as you stated it was not one.

I think in part, the game being sold as, Single / Multi / CoOp / MMO - is confusing for some folks as to what it is.
And with so many buzzwords attached to it, people either expect nothing or expect everything - the descriptions for the game leave no middle ground.

 

[Asp Explorer]

You are completely correct. If you ignore the few players that continuously try and dominate this thread (easily identifiable by the amount they post) and the 2 threads before it you will see posts where people actually contribute ideas and have a discussion on the matter.

Please my friend, point out these newly contributed ideas so that everyone can see

 

[relayer]

You are completely correct. If you ignore the few players that continuously try and dominate this thread (easily identifiable by the amount they post) and the 2 threads before it you will see posts where people actually contribute ideas and have a discussion on the matter.

So we are "dominating" the thread like the group that "dominates" open by pewpew?

Ideas are contributed all the time here: for one, sticky bounties on murderers. For another, beefing up the cargo NPCs carry.

If you mean ideas like "we need to buff open and give special rewards/take away features from solo" you're meeting resistance, as most variations on the discussion of this thread amount to "the three modes work as advertised. You have the same tools. Use them."

 

[Jockey79]

What's the common worldly standards of MMOs? Did I miss the memo?

People tend to expect certain features once they see "MMO" (excluding arena type MMOs).

Chat features including, whisper/ local/ general/ group/ guild.
Ability to group up with other players (normally in multiples of 5 depending on difficulty of content).
Guild and related features.
End game content (raids etc).
Overarching stories (quest chains)

Out of that list, when ED was released, we had whisper as our only chat, no grouping, still no player guilds (though it can be argued PP is like an NPC guild system we can join), still no raid style content or end game (again, it can be argued PP fills the end game gap).
Not sure if anyone would classify what you find on the BB as overarching stories, as I do not have much to do with it.

 

[Jockey79]

You can drop the "nice" act. I only had to read the past couple of pages in this thread. The hyperbole has been at an all time high when the solo advocates believe they have no opposition.

You'll find most of the Solo / Group advocates just reiterate the stance Frontier have taken.
The "Hyperbole" is coming from those scrambling to find any excuse to pick fault and get mardy when their arguments get shot down.

Your attitude also shows why even basic manners vanish, someone tries to be nice and you just be venomous in return.
But not to worry, I shall not make that mistake again with you.

 

[Jockey79]

Wall of Historical Information, with links

Not posted it for some days now, so just a reminder;


From the Kickstarter;
*And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...*
*you will be able to control who else you might encounter in your game – perhaps limit it to just your friends? Cooperate on adventures or chase your friends down to get that booty. The game will work in a seamless, lobby-less way, with the ability to rendezvous with friends
*Play it your way*
Your reputation is affected by your personal choices. Play the game your way: dangerous pirate, famous explorer or notorious assassin - the choice is yours to make. Take on missions and affect the world around you, alone or with your friends.*
*You simply play the game, and depending on your configuration (your choice) *
*We have the concept of “groups”. They can be private groups just of your friends or open groups (that form part of the game) based on the play styles people prefer, and the rules in each can be different. Players will begin in the group “All” but can change groups at will,*

Some Dev comments from the Kickstarter;



https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1681441
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705397
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...omment-1705551

From the forum archives;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6300

All Players Group– Players in this group will be matched with each other as much as possible to ensure as many human players can meet and play together
Private Group – Players in this group will only be matched with other players in the same private group
Solo Group – Players in this group won’t be matched with anyone else ever (effectively a private group with no one else invited)
(All by a Lead Designer)

Also DB on Multiplayer and Grouping and Single (01:00 - 02:01) Plus how the Galaxy will evolve over time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5JY...kuz6s&index=18
"DB explicitly said that solo players would be able to do community goals, though back then they weren't called that. Dev Diary Video #2, at the 4:10 mark."

DB on "Griefing" and "Griefers"
(Listen out for the part where FD can move them in to a private group of just each other)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb5hqjxmf4M

Rededit Topic on "unusual event for players to come against players" (With Twitch Video)
http://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangero...ayers_to_come/

Direct Twitch Link; (Note DB use "Occasonial" and "unusual" regarding players interacting)
http://www.twitch.tv/egx/b/571962295?t=69m00s

Also, MMO does not mean "social" (It means lots of people connected)

Wikipedia;
A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. By necessity, they are played on the Internet. MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ.

Oxford English Dictionary (Online);
An online video game which can be played by a very large number of people simultaneously .


Dev comments;

Originally Posted by Michael Brookes

Originally Posted by Numi
Will at any time solo and private group play be separated into a different universe/database from open play? It's kind of cheap that you can be safe from many things in solo, like player blockades and so on, and still affect the same universe.

No.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael Brookes

Originally Posted by Robert Maynard
Thanks for that clarity Michael.

Are you in a position to confirm that group switching between the three game modes will remain as a feature of the game?

We're not planning on changing that.

Michael

Originally Posted by Michael Brookes

Originally Posted by mosh_er
Hi Micheal

I know you said that solo/group and open will always use the same universe, can you also say that there will be no specific perks in playing in one mode over another? i.e bigger profit from trading in open or bigger bounties?

None are planned at the moment.

Michael

Originally Posted by David Braben AMA Thread, post 319

Originally Posted by Alexander the Grape
In the newsletter, it was mentioned that an intersection between a trading power and a military power will result in piracy missions.

Will this make NPC piracy more profitable or will we continue to need to focus on players?

It can be more profitable, and it will apply to both players and NPCs.

Originally Posted by David Braben AMA Thread, post #367

Originally Posted by Adept
For fun

That said, it could be worth thinking about reducing the impact that solo & group players have on the political simulation.

Unlike community goals, Powerplay is a swinging balance - ie solo players are also balancing solo players.

Originally Posted by David Braben

Originally Posted by FuzzySpider
The mechanics of powerplay, particularly the interface between player and power being an almost direct copy of the community goal model, gives the entire experience an MMO-guild type feel to the gameplay.


Is this MMO-style a new direction for Elite: Dangerous? Or will you be still focussing on the single player immersive experience, even if that single player is playing in a universe filled with other players?


Thank's very much to you and the FDev team for all of your efforts. One or two subjective niggles of mine aside the game is the one I've been waiting for for years and I'm totally enamoured with it.

We are supporting multiplayer and the solo experience. Community Goals are carrying on too.

E3 2015 Interview (17th June 2015);

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/0...-david-braben/


The overall thread topic (+ How XB1 fits);

On that last point, Producer Ben Dowie reiterated that Xbox One and PC players won’t be playing head-to-head—although they’ll be playing in the same simulated universe, they’ll never encounter each other in space, likely because Microsoft’s Xbox patch cycle adds complexity to Frontier’s game update procedure. This means that PC players and Xbox players will often wind up on different clients, which means no head-to-head play. To that end, anticipated PC-centric features will likely land on PC first.

And regarding the game design;

I pointed out that there’s frequent contention online about the “right” way to play, be it casual or hard-core, and Braben agreed. “But there shouldn’t be a ‘right’ way,” he said. “You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play. And people have come up with lots of suggestions, some of them very constructive and sensible, and we do listen, and people hopefully have seen that we’ve changed things and adjusted things, but not in a way—we hope!—to upset people. We’re doing it to make the game better!”

To highlight something from that above quote;


“You should do what makes you excited. I don’t want there to be a ‘right’ way, because then you’re not necessarily playing the way you want to play."


Here is a quote from Zac Antonaci for the "game is dying" pro-claimers.
Dated 10th July 2015;

Originally Posted by Zac Antonaci

Originally Posted by fred
They need to be.


Look at the current posts on the subreddit and the forum. Your core player base is simply stopping playing. You might be selling copies but if your core community is splitting or stopping playing then you have a problem.

Hey Fred,


I wanted to reply to this honestly if I may.


I'm not going to be talking about active player numbers explicitally but I can tell you without question that the game has a very healthy and thriving community who enjoys hours upon hours of Elite. You really don't need to worry on that point.


<snip>


Zac

Originally Posted by Zac Antonaci

According to some members of the community, Solo players should have a limited or no effect on Powerplay - or, alternatively, playing in Open should offer Powerplay bonuses. Is this something you are considering?

No. For us Solo, Groups and Open are all valid and equal ways to play the game.

And a nice, clear, concise comment from Michael Brookes regarding the modes;

Originally Posted by Michael Brookes
From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

 

[Mohrgan]

Despite the fact that some of posters here seem to take victory laps around every now and again, the general arguments remain. Open is not the rightful master of the galaxy. Open is simply one of the matchmaking choices a player can make. The BGS needs all of the input it can get to return useful results.

When you let go of the view that somehow open is the pinnacle of Elite play, you will see that all we are talking about is deciding who we spend our game time with. When I go in open I have to fly through dozens of 'hot' systems to find a fight, and when I think I've found one, pop out of the system they go. I hear this impression echoed time and time again. What extra risk there may be in open is so small, it's hardly worth mentioning.

Pick a solution to discuss. Throw out a new idea to debate. Digging into each other over aggression or perceived slights, illuminates nothing.

 

[Asp Explorer]

We continually point out in this thread the status quo invalidates playstyles that would be great for the game. We know FD's stance. We campaign for FD to reconsider.

Campaign all you like! Remember, I actually agree with you on some points, and it would be nice to see some changes to the game to make everyone happy. However, completely changing the game would make a lot of people unhappy. There is balance to be found here. We are all in it together - to have a great game to play!

 

[relayer]

You are certainly part of the problem. All your ideas only help you have a safer time in Open. You also contribute daily with the unreasonable hyperbole.

OK, I'm really laughing now. Those "ideas" haven't been mine. And, contribute daily? I am barely done with a post and you are right there, chewing and gnawing. The posts I most respond to are the "we need special X for open cuz solo r cheatz." And yes, I will continue to respond to those posts.

They do nothing to help with the fundamental problem.

And what then is the fundamental problem? Quite a few posters in here have said that it's due to gankers, bullies and psychos infesting open. But you won't hear that.

Every activity between modes is indirect. It all requires the dull grinding of filling meters. That is the reason the modes should not affect each other.

Well, see there? We do agree on something. That is the general idea of PP. As for the second sentence, it's been explained many times (and I know you were here for some) that due to the instancing structure, you would not meet 90% or so (maybe even more) of the players in open while doing these missions.

I do not care what you do in solo or group or even open if FD are unwilling to change that.

I only care that players like myself get a mode where direct opposition works against each other so we are not grinding a meter threshold.

Shazam! Your wish is soon to be granted! CQC, here you come!

I do not pirate or gank. I purely want a mode where each faction can oppose each other directly without other modes interfering indirectly.

Impossible due to the reason given above: the matchmaker system can't make that happen.
Also, Shazam again! Your wish will soon be granted!

 

[Apos]

People tend to expect certain features once they see "MMO" (excluding arena type MMOs).

Chat features including, whisper/ local/ general/ group/ guild.
Ability to group up with other players (normally in multiples of 5 depending on difficulty of content).
Guild and related features.
End game content (raids etc).
Overarching stories (quest chains)

Out of that list, when ED was released, we had whisper as our only chat, no grouping, still no player guilds (though it can be argued PP is like an NPC guild system we can join), still no raid style content or end game (again, it can be argued PP fills the end game gap).
Not sure if anyone would classify what you find on the BB as overarching stories, as I do not have much to do with it.

We have self-organised player groups who are indeed allowed to create their own arching stories in collaboration with FD, which is as good as it can get.

Obviously someone might argue "why isn't there an in-game guild option then?", to which I will reply that this game is one that allows players to create groups not as a necessity in order to acquire "epix", but in order to pursue their personal goals and visions of the game universe. A specific guild faction can't facilitate for the diversity of ethos and structure that the various groups want to pursue. CODE is simply not the same as Emperor's Grace and the list just keeps extending when you include democrat and communist groups. Instead of providing a false sense of freedom by allowing some diversity in ranks, it's better to allow for ultimate freedom by having the players themselves organize themselves.

What FD is at fault though is that there is a disconnect from new players to realize that such groups exist and also they have currently pidgeon holed players to care about profits more than story development. They do indeed need to work on those.